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Thread: '04 Jerp WJ 4.7 engine issues

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Old 05-28-2016, 03:44 PM   #1
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Default '04 Jerp WJ 4.7 engine issues

I had a few posts in chit-chat about a recent '04 WJ that I purchased to replace the one that got totaled in November, I decided to just move it to the more appropriate place. This WJ is really clean, rust free and relatively low mileage. ( 122K ) The catch? Engine diagnosed as a dropped valve in #2 cylinder, PO didn't want to spend more on a replacement engine repair than the vehicle is worth. Wise move, without a doubt.

When I looked at the vehicle, it started and ran well for about a minute, then started to load up and belch white smoke, so I thought that maybe it was just a head gasket, but ready to deal with a major repair in case it wasn't just a HG.

A few hours of work on a few different days got me to the point where I got the Pass. side VC off, and I found the #2 intake valve rocker arm just laying in the head.. not a good sign.

I got a 5mm USB video camera and Googlefi app to operate it from the android, when I got the camera into the cylinder I could see some impact marks on the piston. A few days ago I put the camera back into the cylinder, but with a piece of thin wire taped to the front of the camera body in an attempt to rotate the camera to get a view of the valves.

I was able to see the valve seat had dropped about 1/2 out of the cylinder head, but from what I could see, it looked to be intact. I've decided to pull the head and have a closer look at the damages, then decide what to after I know more.

Whom ever designed this motor, and the way to install it into this chassis was a sadistic person, to say the least. Everything is too tightly packaged into the engine bay, the amount of disassembly to even get to the heads is enough to make all but the most determined to walk away. My old WJ had the 4.slow, it was "barely" enough of an engine to move the jeep around. The first time I drove one with the 4.7, I thought that I'd get one if the right deal ever came around. What was I thinking.......

Anyway, about 4 more hours of work today got me to the point of the fuel rail and intake off of the motor.



I was trying to get the front cover off today, but it didn't happen. I didn't bring enough tools with me, my tools are about 25 miles away from where I'm working on the Jerp. My next biggest challenge is to remove the hydraulic cooling fan. (another brilliant idea.. none of the other 4.7 powered vehicles use this setup, why did the WJ get stuck with it ?) My obstacle was- I need to remove two of the high pressure hoses from the PS pump before I can unbolt the shroud and remove the assembly, I didn't have any flare wrenches with me, regular wrenches aren't going to them off so maybe tomorrow I'll go back and have another go at it.

My current goal is to have the heads off to drop them off at the machine shop on Tuesday and to have the dinged piston out for farther inspection.

Last edited by BigSki; 05-28-2016 at 03:50 PM.
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Old 05-28-2016, 06:39 PM   #2
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Default Re: '04 Jerp WJ 4.7 engine issues

As a owner of a 2008 chrysler aspen equipped with the same engine check all your lifters for slack mine crapped a lifter out at 20,000 miles chrysler tech told me lifter height tolerances in these motors is very poor and sugggested finding proper sized washers ground down to fill the play and stop the lifters from popping out i have done this and now at 80,000 miles with no ill effects and a much quieter engine
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Old 05-29-2016, 05:35 PM   #3
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Default Re: '04 Jerp WJ 4.7 engine issues

I was just about ready to give up today, after another long day of "taking apart" and cursing chrysler designers every minute, I managed to break two of the plastic t-chain guides while trying to reset the secondary tensioners. Brittle as glass only after 120K. I got past that and set out to unbolt the down pipe from the pass side.

Apparently there's a nut plate of sorts ( that you can't even freeking see, much less gain access to) because after threading 2 extensions and an impact swivel to reach the rear bolt, it started to unthread, then some resistance , so I though that it would just snap off. Nope, it just started to spin, as if it were stripped so I moved to the front one to calm down ( thoughts of flicking a match onto the jeep has crossed my mind already.) Same scenario, only this time I could see what looks like a broken nut plate spin by.

I was a state of absolute disgust. There's absolutely no way to gain access to the manifold bolts on that side, so unbolting the mani from the head isn't going to work. While I was under there, I bumped my head on the bumper cover and managed to get some lingering coolant in my mouth. I don't think I swallowed any, but even after rinsing with water, then literally wiping my face and tongue with those gritty hand cleaning cloths, I couldn't get the taste out of my mouth.

20 minutes later after reading up on signs of antifreeze poisoning ( very unpleasant way to die...) I decided that I was probably going to be ok and didn't need to call 911, I started to clean up my tools and call it another day.

After cleaning up, I was a bit calmer so I crawled back under and had another look. The front bolt has enough shank exposed that I could probably reach it with a recip saw, the rear bolt - I just don't know. Even if I dropped the upper suspension link, it would still be stupidly difficult to reach the shank and slice it in half. Part of me thinks its time to give up, another part wants to continue to fight and not let the stupid Jeep claim victory. I don't know at this point- I'm mainly typing to do a bit of venting right now. Thanks to anyone that's listening.
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Old 05-31-2016, 07:55 PM   #4
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Default Re: '04 Jerp WJ 4.7 engine issues

Thanks for the tip scalemadness

Productive day today, I had to use my flex shaft Dremel tool with the tiny cutoff wheels to cut through the bolts holding the down-pipe to the exhaust manifolds. I actually had to remove the passenger side upper control arm just to have enough room to squeeze my hand in there to operate the Dremel.

Well, I finally got the money shot that I've been waiting for............




no idea how it didn't break with the piston hitting it enough times for the rocker arm to fall off, but the good news is that there's no powdered metal shrapnel floating around in the motor. The bad news- the "dent" in the psiton is about 1/8th of an inch deep.


The cylinder bores all look good with cross hatching still visible and with texture in the bores, there's no ridge at the top of the bores. I might be able to just replace one piston and call it 'good enough for a jeep' but I'll have to wait to hear back from the machine shop, I plan to drop off the heads tomorrow and have them assess the mess.

My new work bench is already trashed..


Last edited by BigSki; 05-31-2016 at 08:04 PM.
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Old 06-04-2016, 11:58 AM   #5
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Default Re: '04 Jerp WJ 4.7 engine issues

My ford 302 heads had the same issue!
Luckily I was putting in new heads.https://youtu.be/-dZeLkARDaQ

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Old 06-05-2016, 04:44 PM   #6
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Default Re: '04 Jerp WJ 4.7 engine issues

I really like that body style Jeep, but I would burn it. Then when it's done burning light it on fire again...
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Old 06-05-2016, 06:35 PM   #7
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Default Re: '04 Jerp WJ 4.7 engine issues

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Originally Posted by canadianbacon View Post
I really like that body style Jeep, but I would burn it. Then when it's done burning light it on fire again...


A guy on the jeep forum is sending me a good, used piston assembly for the price of shipping so that is a big help. Machine shop still hasn't touched the heads, so I'm going to grab them after work on Monday and take them somewhere else.

After much debate, I've decided to only replace the plastic t-chain guides and leave everything else alone. My goal is to make it run again, not perform an "in chassis" budget rebuild. I've seen brand name timing sets for around $500, which I would use if it were a fresh rebuild. This is more of a 'lets get in there, fix what's broke and get the heck out' type of repair.
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Old 06-09-2016, 03:52 PM   #8
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Default Re: '04 Jerp WJ 4.7 engine issues

Got the heads back, I went to my work area and started to reinstall the exhaust manifolds. I had 1 bolt break off on me, so I started on the other head only to have one hole strip the threads during the final torque ( a whooping 18 lbs/ft !) and another stud snapped.

The manifolds were ground down flat, so there' couldn't have been much strain on the bolts. Maybe they're that brittle after 12 years and lawd-only-knows how many heat cycles. The stripped hole was easy to fix, I had a M8 x 1.25 Heli-coil kit on hand. I'm going to order 2 of the Dorman manifold hardware kits from Amazon, ~ $13 per kit. ( 1 kit does one manifold) The stealership wants $4.50 per bolt/stud.



I asked about the rough edges, the shop said that it wasn't worth worrying about but I'm going to worry anyway and get a few "fine" grit sanding drums for the Dremel and smooth it out a bit.





You can see where the threads just split close to the shoulder section of the stud.

Last edited by BigSki; 06-09-2016 at 04:20 PM.
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Old 06-09-2016, 07:11 PM   #9
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Default Re: '04 Jerp WJ 4.7 engine issues

The way those are stretched, I wonder if those are one time use bolts.
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Old 06-09-2016, 08:35 PM   #10
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Default Re: '04 Jerp WJ 4.7 engine issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by BJoe View Post
The way those are stretched, I wonder if those are one time use bolts.
no, those were stretched due to heat cycling and manifold warping. I ususally always use new exhaust manifold bolts when working with exhaust manifolds...
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Old 06-11-2016, 05:29 PM   #11
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Default Re: '04 Jerp WJ 4.7 engine issues

This hardware is notorious for just popping apart. Apparently, like every other component on a chrylser product, it's the cheapest, lowest grade possible to hold something together.

They have upgraded versions of the hardware, the local stealership wants $4.50 per bolt/stud. I've ordered a Dorman hardware kit that looks much beefier than the O.E. stuff and it's around $2 per bolt/stud.

The guy that was supposed to send me the piston assembly completely flaked out, so now I'm back to looking for a used piston/rod assembly.
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Old 06-12-2016, 08:01 PM   #12
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Default Re: '04 Jerp WJ 4.7 engine issues

No pics today, but it was a busy productive one. I hit the local 'pick-and-pull' and got replacement parts for everything that I broke during dis-assembly. I could blame the broken parts on the fact they were all 12 year old, brittle pieces of poo but the truth is- I'm a 245lb goon that isn't as gentle as I should be sometimes!

I actually enjoyed using a ball peen hammer and 2' pry bar to shatter ever part that was in the way of my prizes on the junk yard jerp.

I went to my jerp afterwards and gave the oil pan removal another go. I really thought that I had to separate the Y pipe from the mid pipe in order to gain enough clearance to drop the cast aluminum inspection cover/ stiffener plate contraption. I dropped the exhaust from the hangers and was able to wiggle the cursed part out of the way, then started on the remaining bolts on the oil pan. 10 minutes later, the bolts were out but the pan would not budge. I had read about how the baffle seal could stick to the pan, so I used a 6 " knife to start separating the baffle seal from the pan, then used the 2' pry bar to open the gap and work around.

There was no way in hell that the baffle seal was coming on in 1 piece, so I became a bit 'enthusiastic' with the pry bar tool and finally got the pan to separate 30 minutes later. I can't remember the last time I was cussing so badly, what a POS design and generally miserable job to perform.

Once the pan was free, it took a bit of wiggling to get it clear of the pickup tube and on the ground. Then the baffle was unbolted and removed. I was FINALLY able to get to the damn con-rod bolts. The piston came out without any drama. I couldn't see any damage to the ring lands, the rings moved freely. I plan to take the piston to the machine shop and get some opinions on if it's even worth the money to have it dye tested for sub-surface cracks.

The depth of the dent from hitting the valve seat left some deep, rough dents. I'm concerned with a weakened piston and possibly hot spots. I'll wait to hear what the machine shop has to say before any more decisions are made. I'll get a pic of the piston tomorrow.

Last edited by BigSki; 06-13-2016 at 08:09 PM.
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Old 06-13-2016, 05:30 AM   #13
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Default Re: '04 Jerp WJ 4.7 engine issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigSki View Post
I actually enjoyed using a ball peen hammer and 2' pry bar to shatter ever part that was in the way of my prizes on the junk yard jerp.


Subd!
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Old 06-14-2016, 09:17 PM   #14
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Default Re: '04 Jerp WJ 4.7 engine issues

Waiting on 'stuff' from RockAuto and Amazon to arrive, so I stayed busy after work making a tool to hold the cam gear in the correct orientation so that the head is put back on, there's no valves hitting pistons. There's a fancy factory tool that accomplishes the same thing, I have no idea what the tool even looks like. I took a few dimensions, made a sketch on paper, complete with math calculations, then went ghetto fabbing!

90* V block means that each head sits at a 45* angle on each bank, the cam gear gets the little 'V8' stamped orientated straight up at 12 o'clock. There's 3 holes in the came gear, 2 of them run colinear to each other, and perpendicular to the 'V8' mark, so I came up with this way to set the cam gear in the right phase.


The holes in the gear measured 5.8mm using a veneer caliper ( AKA 'very neer' calipers...) I hit the machine shop at work, converted 5.8 into decimal inches and got the closest stubby drill bit that left me a tiny bit of wiggle room, the drill bit ended up being a #1 ( .228 )

Some white paint on the ends of the 'locator pins' then I held up a piece of flat ground 1/4" plate that I had laying around to transfer the locations of the pins. ( drill bits...)





A bit of layout work, a few taps from a center punch and a bit of work with a handheld drill got me to this point.



All that was left was to bore a 1" hole in-between the 2 locator pin holes to gain access to the bolt that holds the cam gear to the cam.
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Old 06-14-2016, 09:59 PM   #15
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Default Re: '04 Jerp WJ 4.7 engine issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigSki View Post
This hardware is notorious for just popping apart. Apparently, like every other component on a chrylser product, it's the cheapest, lowest grade possible to hold something together.

They have upgraded versions of the hardware, the local stealership wants $4.50 per bolt/stud. I've ordered a Dorman hardware kit that looks much beefier than the O.E. stuff and it's around $2 per bolt/stud.

The guy that was supposed to send me the piston assembly completely flaked out, so now I'm back to looking for a used piston/rod assembly.

good luck with dorman, most of their items are hit or miss...I always went the extra few bucks for the upgraded dealership stuff and never had a comeback, cant say the same for the dorman stuff I tried..31 years experience in the bays taught me early on not to try and save a few bucks...it usually came back to bite me in the ass...
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Old 06-15-2016, 09:15 PM   #16
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Default Re: '04 Jerp WJ 4.7 engine issues

Thanks for the reply, I'll take a good look at the Dorman hardware before installing it, I have a single, upgraded stud from dudge to compare the Dorman hardware to.
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Old 06-20-2016, 07:34 PM   #17
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Default Re: '04 Jerp WJ 4.7 engine issues

After dealing with a shipping headache from amazon with the manifold mounting hardware, it finally shows up and is 90% complete. Amazon is issuing a full refund and I get to keep the stuff, but I still had to buy 1 upgraded stud from jerp to finally get the manifolds mounted on the heads.

Here's a comparison of the original stud next to the upgraded stud from jerp.


The upgraded stud uses a 12mm hex and the hex is in a different location, I honestly can't imagine that those differences make the stud any stronger.

Upgraded stud next to the Dorman stud. ( Dorman stud has the red loctite on it from the factory) They look identical and the measured the same dimensionally. The hex shank is 13mm, 1mm larger than the upgraded jerp part.


I had to remove ( hammer off) the thick cut washers from the original hardware and slightly open the hole for it to be reused on the new hardware. Both the OE upgrade hardware and the Dorman hardware do not come with new washers. Everything went together fine, the heat shields sit just the way they are supposed to. I'm happy with the Dorman stuff right now, I hope that it lasts as long as the O.E. pieces although I can't imagine that I'll have this GC in 10 years to find out. Whomever shipped these 2 kits for amazon obviously had open containers and just threw everything into the shipping box, I was missing 1 long stud and 3 nuts.

Last edited by BigSki; 06-20-2016 at 07:44 PM.
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Old 06-25-2016, 09:06 PM   #18
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Default Re: '04 Jerp WJ 4.7 engine issues

Progress was made today. The piston found it's way back into the bore, no surprises along the way. I hope that the old bearing had enough crush so that it's fully seated. 20 lb/ft + 90* was a bit difficult, I basically eye-balled the 90* with a sharpie mark on the new rod bolts.



close up of the dented piston. I spent literally 15 minutes with 120 grit emery cloth cleaning up the rough edges.



windage tray then oil pan re-installed. Once I removed the tranny hard lines the oil pan went back in pretty easily. The thick aluminium "structural reinforcement" part was a PIA to wiggle through the Y pipe, even with the exhaust being dropped. I finally got it in and tightened down.



That was it for the day. I just set the head gaskets and heads on the block, nothing is bolted down yet. I'm trying to get the heads on and torqued and the timing set installed for tomorrow.

Last edited by BigSki; 06-25-2016 at 09:32 PM.
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Old 06-26-2016, 04:52 PM   #19
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Default Re: '04 Jerp WJ 4.7 engine issues

I didn't get a lot accomplished today, the sun was brutal. Humidity was low ( thankfully) but being in the direct sun, even with full coveralls, a cap on and sun block I still got burned again. I was actually nauseous and got a migraine.

Anyway, the heads are on and torqued. This was my first time doing heads on a 4.7 in a WJ and it will be my last, far too crammed on the passenger side.



Here's my hookie TDC cam tool in action, it worked. If I had to do a bunch of these jobs I would make a V2 of the tool but since this is a 'one and done' the piece of steel will go back into the scrap metal box when it's all over.


I need to figure out what some of these gaskets are for, it makes me think that I didn't tear everything apart far enough.



This is the #2 gasket in the pic above. Can't figure this one out for a location. The head set had gaskets for EGR engines included, so maybe it's for an EGR verison of the 4.7? Chime in if you can shead some light.


Last edited by BigSki; 06-26-2016 at 05:01 PM.
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Old 06-30-2016, 07:06 PM   #20
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Default Re: '04 Jerp WJ 4.7 engine issues

My attitude is getting better because the jerp is going back together.

T-chain guides installed.


T-chains. All 3 of them. I had the cam gears set to the TDC orientation, so I was trying to align up the black links in the cam chains to the proper "dots' on the cam gears. This isn't absolutely necessary as long as the cam gears are at TDC orientation along with engine. When I was taking everything apart, the marks were definitely not aligned, which tells me someone has been in there before. It took a bit of work to get the black chain links properly aligned because there's no reference marks on the "idler" gear that the cam chains run off of. I felt good when everything was finally aligned.



I'll go back on Saturday and torque everything, I forgot to pack the torque wrench for today. The timing cover can go back on and the balancer, then the intake. That will wrap up all of the "big" engine parts, then it's just 1.73 million small connections to finish up. Maybe by the weekend of the 14th I'll have it done and running.
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