Judges/score keepers, judging issues

[freetimecrawler]

MNRCRC will be needing at least 6 people, plus a couple alternates, willing to judge/score keep.
These person's should be willing to study, and know all the 2008 USRCCA/MNRCRC rules. We may also have a video, and a "what if" quiz.
It would also be important that you attend a majority of the competitions.

For those interested? Please post up.


1. Freetimecrawler

[BigBaller]

:flipoff:

I'm in...but who will take pictures?


Ryan

[Etype R]

I'll be the picture bitch

[tjb]

:flipoff:

I'm in...but who will take pictures?


Ryan


We've seen you add before though........:shock:



I'd be up for alternate..

[Nicklepimp]

I'll be the picture bitch

And a good picture bitch you are."thumbsup"

I'm gonna be picking up a camera here pretty soon I think, so between all of us, I'm sure we'll get plenty of nice pics.

Of course I'll do my fair share of judging too.:)

[Stormin2u]

I'd love to if you can keep all the gates where I can see them, then I could also kick some arses in the competitions as well."thumbsup"

[intimadationrc]

well get the tank tread chair and we all good lol jk

[freetimecrawler]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Etype R http://www.rccrawler.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.rccrawler.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1282639#post1282639)
I would still like to see a score card/sheet for each driver. The sign up sheet will be the running order list, check off your name to sign up and grab your score card. Each driver will be responsible for their card, so the judge only has to keep the running order sheet. But every time I have suggested we do this, I have been shot down.

This will prevent judges from marking scores for the wrong driver, which many of us have done. And should be easier to handle with absent drivers. Another plus to this system from reading about other clubs doing it, is that it is much easier to tally the final placement of the drivers as you can add the totals up for the day. I could toss together some score cards to test this setup for our next comp if others support it.

I really like WAPA's design in this thread.

http://www.rccrawler.com/forum/showthread.php?t=126685 (http://www.rccrawler.com/forum/showthread.php?t=126685)

Looking at their card again, another thing that would be nice with this layout is the running order # As you sign up you would mark your number on your card, and we could call out your name and number. This would help as everyone could figure out how how many rigs are running before they are up.




Kevin and Troy, I know you both love to keep all the score sheets on file from every comp. Here is how I think we should run this using score cards for each driver.

We have 1 judge per course, 1 time keeper/helper. They do not sign off on this until the next step is finished.

Also assign people who know the rules and how the scoring works add up the score sheets after each run. I will gladly help with this. Once the score is added up and double checked, verify that there were no mistakes made by the judge after the next run is over. Once the Judge and helper give the ok all 3 people will initial it. The score keeper will then add the score to a masters sheet, along with the time and return the card to the driver.

With this system, we can announce the winners before the day is over, a huge plus in my book. If the driver feels there was a error, they must bring it up after their run, before its signed off.


I think, actually, I would bet, that this method would slow down the flow of the comps considerably, esp at First.

I don't care much for that score sheet, as there's no reference to gates.
I'd prefer to use a sheet that had all gates numbered out.

While I'm not opposed to trying a new system, we really haven't had a lot of mistakes with the current one. I think just a little more care taken when scoring, would prevent 99.9% of the mistakes.

I definatly wouldn't be in favor of starting a new system at our next comp, since it's usually the biggest comp of the season, I don't think we would want to slow it down any.

I also don't think 1 judge and 1 time keeper per course would work. Who wants to be stuck on 1 course all day? Most of us want a break, and to see some other runs on the 2nd course. IMO that would make it too close to a "job" and I have to wonder how many would offer to score if they were tied to 1 course all day?


I also can't help but think what a mess of sloppy wet papers we would have on a damp comp day, it's enough trouble to keep the 1 sheet/clipboard dry.

I believe this issue deserves further discussion, we should do that in the judges thread, which I will bring back to life now.
__________________
www.MN-RCRC.COM
Eritex Inc Team Driver
7th place Super class @ USRCCA 2006 Nationals


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[Stormin2u]

I'll be the picture bitch

Listen beaches the photos are the most important part who cares about the scores there must be photos. :evil:

[JohnRobHolmes]

We ran a sheet for each person at the last comp, and let everybody run when they wanted to. It actually worked very well. The only hassle was telling the person to grab their scoresheet after the run, they generally wanted to skeedaddle out before I was done tallying score.

[tjb]

We ran a sheet for each person at the last comp, and let everybody run when they wanted to. It actually worked very well. The only hassle was telling the person to grab their scoresheet after the run, they generally wanted to skeedaddle out before I was done tallying score.



This is for the most part the same way they ran Ohio, and it ran smooth as hell with 60 driver's. I think it's crazy not to try it at least once........

[Indy]

Here's are my opinions, take them for what they're worth (not much)...

First, one sheet or many sheets - don't have a strong opinion, both have there advantages/disadvantages. If many sheets I would think smaller (5.5 x 8.5) plus sturdier (card type) paper would work better.

General judging/time-keeping thoughts:

- all marks should be accompanied by an audible statement (if the judge marks a touch he should state "touch" so the driver hears him). I think this already happens 95% time but it's the 5% when it doesn't that might cause misunderstandings.

- time-keepers (especially the newer ones that randomly get handed the stop watch) need to be reminded that they need to also watch/call penalties since the score keeper is not always able to keep his eyes on the happenings.

- (this is request for discussion more than an opinion): if the score keeper and time keeping person both "miss" (don't see) a penalty - does it exist? Another way is to ask whether penalties called out by spectators (and not seen by the judges) should be recorded or ignored?

- regardless of which way the sheet issues plays out (one or many) I do agree that there should be some kind of PRELIMINARY score tally done after each run so that any big obivious mis-marks (mark a touch instead of a rollover, etc.) could be caught... Nothing fancy, just a quick 30 second tally to help the judge/driver catch any issues.

Thanks,

[tjb]

- all marks should be accompanied by an audible statement (if the judge marks a touch he should state "touch" so the driver hears him). I think this already happens 95% time but it's the 5% when it doesn't that might cause misunderstandings.

- time-keepers (especially the newer ones that randomly get handed the stop watch) need to be reminded that they need to also watch/call penalties since the score keeper is not always able to keep his eyes on the happenings.

- (this is request for discussion more than an opinion): if the score keeper and time keeping person both "miss" (don't see) a penalty - does it exist? Another way is to ask whether penalties called out by spectators (and not seen by the judges) should be recorded or ignored?



nonsense, every opinion counts man "thumbsup"



I think we need to keep the QT on the spectator call-outs IMO. It really should be the timer/caller out'r and the scoring Judge only.

There has and are times where the guys watching tend to excessively call things out while someone is running. Although it adds to the "fun", it can raise the chance for miss marking/scoring of a run when there is someone new on the score sheets. Not saying everyone should stay away from the course when someone runs, but at least keep a lid on it during the run, trash talk after the run away from the courses.....


As far as the score sheets thing, Troy, you should have a copy of the score sheet from Ohio. Plan and simple 9-10 gate sheet, penalty/score spots everything to give it a whirl........


WTH, post up a poll for single or 1 sheet per course/driver till mid week

[THAT1GUY]

I would be willing to judge my own runs, also other if I had too :mrgreen:

[freetimecrawler]

Here's are my opinions, take them for what they're worth (not much)...

First, one sheet or many sheets - don't have a strong opinion, both have there advantages/disadvantages. If many sheets I would think smaller (5.5 x 8.5) plus sturdier (card type) paper would work better.

General judging/time-keeping thoughts:

- all marks should be accompanied by an audible statement (if the judge marks a touch he should state "touch" so the driver hears him). I think this already happens 95% time but it's the 5% when it doesn't that might cause misunderstandings.

- time-keepers (especially the newer ones that randomly get handed the stop watch) need to be reminded that they need to also watch/call penalties since the score keeper is not always able to keep his eyes on the happenings.

- (this is request for discussion more than an opinion): if the score keeper and time keeping person both "miss" (don't see) a penalty - does it exist? Another way is to ask whether penalties called out by spectators (and not seen by the judges) should be recorded or ignored?

- regardless of which way the sheet issues plays out (one or many) I do agree that there should be some kind of PRELIMINARY score tally done after each run so that any big obivious mis-marks (mark a touch instead of a rollover, etc.) could be caught... Nothing fancy, just a quick 30 second tally to help the judge/driver catch any issues.

Thanks,



I'm with Dave on this. Audible calls by the time keeper MUST be called.
Personally, I don't think there's any problem with the current score sheets. It's not the score sheets making/causing the error/s
No matter what we decide to use for score sheets, mistakes can happen. Do we need to change score sheets every time a mistake is made? or do we correct the mistake/s?
People are just now getting used to the score sheets we have.
I don't think the problem has even been addressed in any of our posts.
Can anyone tell me how a new score sheet will prevent mistakes?

I think we need to have the same core group of 8-10 people score all the time, that way we could have a judges meeting, and make sure everyone calls out penaltys and marks the score sheets the same.
We really haven't had that many errors in scoring.
I think a little more caution when marking score sheets, and quickly reviewing the score sheets after each run would take care of any issues.
I still don't think our biggest comp of the season is the time to try out new score cards, IMO it would be much better to use the current system, and talk about and vote on new score sheets over our short break.
I honestly think new sheets this next comp would slow us down, and mess up the smooth flow of the comp, and the biggest comp of the season, should run smoothly. Esp with out of town guests.
Again, I really don't think it's the score sheets fault for mistakes, and I really don't see any posts addressing the real issue.

[Etype R]

Rough draft of the score card and score sheet, look it over and give your ideas/feedback. I printed them out and ran through them, they seem very easy to follow.

http://turtlecrawler.com/junk/score-card.jpg

http://turtlecrawler.com/junk/score-sheet.jpg


PDF links if anyone wants to print one off and see how they look.

http://turtlecrawler.com/junk/Score%20cards.pdf

http://turtlecrawler.com/junk/Score%20sheet.pdf

[Cole82]

Maybe my input isn't needed for your guys club, but I'll through out IMO.
Good start Mike, do you guys have club logo or something to put on there?
Troy I'm with you on not the biggest comp of the year. But you are coming off like you don't want to try something that could make it simpler and easier to use.

[Etype R]

V2

http://turtlecrawler.com/junk/score%20card%202.jpg

[dirtyal]

I like the scorecard and freecrawl idea. Seems like thats what the big comps are doing so some people must like it. I do agree with freetime though that we should wait until after the next comp when things shouldnt be so hectic.

I'm willing to fill in judging/timekeeping when needed, but as many of you know I'm a picture taking fiend so personally I would rather man the camera.

Does anybody bring a copy of the rules to the comps? If not I'm going to print one off and put it in a fancy binder so anybody can take a quick look at it if needed.

[intimadationrc]

ill time keep id rather time keep than judge sorry guys

[Nicklepimp]

I like the scorecard and freecrawl idea. Seems like thats what the big comps are doing so some people must like it. I do agree with freetime though that we should wait until after the next comp when things shouldnt be so hectic.

I'm willing to fill in judging/timekeeping when needed, but as many of you know I'm a picture taking fiend so personally I would rather man the camera.

Does anybody bring a copy of the rules to the comps? If not I'm going to print one off and put it in a fancy binder so anybody can take a quick look at it if needed.

I keep a copy in my pocket."thumbsup"

[Etype R]

I will put up a poll tonight on the topic of using the new score cards or current score sheet. I will also add options for using the score cards in the next comp or the following comp.

[tjb]

Does anybody bring a copy of the rules to the comps? If not I'm going to print one off and put it in a fancy binder so anybody can take a quick look at it if needed.



I do, I have a set in my tote, but I think I'm gonna start putting a copy in my pocket for quick ref...........


Mike, V2 makes a bit more sense. (or I'm finally up to proper caffine levels now) The blocks under the reverses was the comfuzing part. Troy has a copy of the BG score sheet. I think between that and yours we're on to something. I'm also waiting on the formulated spread sheet from Twistedcreations so we'd just enter the driver's names and scores, hit a button and it auto places them......

[THAT1GUY]

I think it would just be a lot easier if people would have clean runs, then you wouldn't need to worry about all the scoring issues."thumbsup"

[TwistedCreations]

Well its not needed, but i'll throw my 1 cent out there...

Troy your right, a scoresheet will not help with mistakes, but maybe some of the judges get confused at times? Not saying thats the case, but that brings me to the next thing: Judging and spotters.. Yes everyone tends to hate it, but you need at least 3-4 judges that know the rules inside and out. Then you need 3-4 spotters that need to know them also. Not as far into depth, but that will eventually know them as well so you can switch them out as judges also.

Eventually, you will have 8-12 judges/spotters that know the rules very well. Also, I do have mandatory meetings for those guys so that we all stay on the same page and we all know exactly how to call a situation.


But we use the single scoresheet for each person even at local events. We had the drivers keeping their sheets all day and they would get half torn up, bent, twisted and just all kind of fubar'd.. Made using the sheet a mess. So we went with 1 sheet per course. That way, each person could bring the scores to the computer to be added in. That way I'm not there for awhile at the end, just trying to add all of the scores(that was before I got my laptop also)...

I sent J a couple files on how I do the excel sheet and I will also send him the actual file to the BG scoresheet

[freetimecrawler]

Thanks Jeremy, you opinion is appreciated. You guys have been crawling longer then we have, and expierence is the best lesson.
Thanks also for the Excel spread sheet.
I just hope Jay can learn how to use it ;-)
Right now, I'm leaning toward the method used for the Battle Grounds comp.
Whatever the score sheet, it doesn't really matter to me.
We need to call a judges meeting.

[Spider Man]

I think there is nothing wrong with are score sheet now. We just need to inform and go over the rules in a quick meeting in the morning for the score and time keepers. Like some one said, there are people just starting to understand on how to keep score. If anything should be changed it should be the bonus gate being a 10pt gate thats more than a course, how about 5pt and you should have to finish the hole course with out missing a gate or a point out to git you on to the bonus gate:roll:

[Etype R]

And hopefully the final Score Card... Thanks for the tips Twisted :)

http://turtlecrawler.com/junk/score-card-final.jpg

[Spider Man]

That looks OK, I guess I can see at working out just fine. "thumbsup"

[freetimecrawler]

Well, it looks like we'll be going with the new score cards, and a new method of keeping track of the scoring. ( should be much easier for all)

We can go over them before this next comp at a short meeting.

There are a couple other judging issues that I would like to address at the meeting, and here.

#1 is. When a repair is taken off course, within the 30 minute time limit, 1 minute is subtracted off the remaining running time left when the driver returns to finish his/her run.

I don't think we've been following this rule?

#2. On bonus gates,
Under section 1, 1.10 the rule states "Once a driver has pointed out, no further progress points will be awarded"
It also states under section 4, 4.6.1 "Although grouped with a course, bonus gates are not part of an actual course, but may be attempted after completing the course where the bonus gate is located, within the time limit of that course"

Last comp, I think we let people who pointed out attempt the bonus gate.
We also give an additional 2 minutes time to attempt a bonus.

#3.In section 3, 3.1.4 "Time starts when the vehicle breaks the plane of the First/start gate of the course"
"Time stops when the vehilce breaks the plane of the last/finish gate"

I think we've been going both front tires, which is incorrect.

#4. I'm pretty sure everyone is repositioning the trucks after a touch penalty?
What I'm not so sure about is, is everyone stopping the time clock until the truck is repositioned, and starts moving again?

#5. We don't have a lot of this, but.... when we do have a boundry line, the rule states " 10 points are given when any part of the vehicle touches a boundry line"
"Once a boundry line has been touched or traversed the vehicle must then return to the course without making forward progress"
This means (usually) reversing, and not turning around going forward.

Yet another rule I think we may vary on.

Now I know the USRCCA allows for some variations for local clubs to accommodate local terrain, bla bla bla.
But I really think the closer we run to the USRRCA rules, the easier it will be for all those judging to stay on the same page, and call all penaltys the same.

Speak up folks, whats anyone elses thoughts on this??
Do we step in check with the USRCCA rules?
Or do we continue to vary in our penalty calling from judge to judge?

[BigBaller]

I have said this all along, we should judge like the big boys...follow the rules. It only educates everyone. If you have a bad run, it's ok. When the comp is over stick around and try the things you failed on. This will make us all better drivers. Hell, we have had a few women giving it a go. Let's promote our club and keep the level of skill climbing.;-)

Ryan

[freetimecrawler]

30 views and nobody besides Ryan has anything to say :shock:

[Etype R]

From talking to the guys at Jerrys, they would like to see the stricter rules, but mainly consistent ruling between judges.

[intimadationrc]

30 views and nobody besides Ryan has anything to say :shock:




just kinda annoyed since i said thats what they did in norcal and i suggested trying it and no one listened then and now were doing it so maybe i was just dumb newbie but looks like were trying it soo will see

[THAT1GUY]

I was thinking of having the score cards laminated and using grease pens so if it does get wet it dosent wipe off. Then they could be turned in at the end of the comp and when we pick them up at the next comp it would be our job to clean then off so their ready to go.

[freetimecrawler]

just kinda annoyed since i said thats what they did in norcal and i suggested trying it and no one listened then and now were doing it so maybe i was just dumb newbie but looks like were trying it soo will see


I'm not sure I understand how the free crawl has anything to do with these judging issues?
I don't remember you saying anything (to me at least) about the free crawl, which they do in a lot more places then Nor-cal.
If you have ideas Chris, post up a poll, or post up a thread and get peoples opinions.
I don't see any reason to be annoyed?
The free crawl is but One change we're making.
Same goes for everyone. Post up your ideas.
There's not any decissions that are made for the club by any 1 person.
All are made by commitee or voting polls.

[Spider Man]

I think Big baller is right on the money. I guess we will all see tomorrow

[tjb]

I was thinking of having the score cards laminated and using grease pens so if it does get wet it dosent wipe off. Then they could be turned in at the end of the comp and when we pick them up at the next comp it would be our job to clean then off so their ready to go.



We've already had to tell Ryan no crayons, now you want him using Grease pencils?! :shock:

[freetimecrawler]

Looks like we will be following the USRCCA rules to the letter.
Including reverses.
From now on any reverse movement of the tires, weither by power, or a roll-back will be counted as a reverse. And all the USRCCA rules that we differ from will now be USRCCA rules.
I have 10 copies of the current rules in menu like plastic to give out to our judges. I will bring them tomorrow.

[Indy]

#2. On bonus gates,
Under section 1, 1.10 the rule states "Once a driver has pointed out, no further progress points will be awarded"
It also states under section 4, 4.6.1 "Although grouped with a course, bonus gates are not part of an actual course, but may be attempted after completing the course where the bonus gate is located, within the time limit of that course"

Last comp, I think we let people who pointed out attempt the bonus gate.
We also give an additional 2 minutes time to attempt a bonus.


Thanks for the information Troy. One question - the rules imply that a bonus gate is like any other gate and NOT special like the start/stop gates so it seems that the bonus gate would need to be cleared and not just break the plane... Am I reading it wrong?

Also, I made a cheat sheet of the rules for myself to be used as a reference, here it is in case someone else might find it useful:

http://www.dgkp.net/forum/rulessummary.pdf

[Etype R]

I think we used to require the truck to fully clear the gate, and over time it changed to the front two tires and now just breaking the plane. Fully clearing it like any other gate does make more sense, as it adds to the challange of the gate.

[tjb]

I think we used to require the truck to fully clear the gate, and over time it changed to the front two tires and now just breaking the plane. Fully clearing it like any other gate does make more sense, as it adds to the challange of the gate.


It also states no reposition or hitting ANY gate, or no points...

Good to see this "break the plane" crap going away..."thumbsup"


We going to try and have a judges meeting earlier in the morning? like 830'ish?? that way we can hammer things out and get courses set up before tech?????

[Etype R]

You can take as many roll overs and reverses as you would like, but any other penalty is a DQ.