Caring for your new Brushed motor

[JohnRobHolmes]

http://holmeshobbies.com/skin1/images/Guido.jpg (http://holmeshobbies.com)

**For a primer on the parts of a motor, read this: http://www.rccrawler.com/forum/showthread.php?p=919711#post919711**
**For a discussion about tuning and maintaining a motor, read this http://www.rccrawler.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1663074#post1663074z **

I have had many questions on how to care for your new brushed motor, especially the Cobalt Puller. Since it has a 7 slot armature the brush orientation is 90* offset from your typical 3 slot 540 motor. It is very hard to take a picture of the motor as my eye can see it, but hopefully this will help.

As an adjustable timing motor, the Cobalt Puller and any other MOD motor does not have "forward" or "reverse". You can rotate the endbell 180* and effectively swap the rotation, or just swap the motor leads. When a motor has neutral timing, it runs the same speed in forward and reverse. Advanced (positive) timing makes the motor spin faster, Retarded (negative) timing makes the motor spin slower. Small variations in the brush and comm condition can effect this slightly, but it is nothing to worry about. IF YOUR MOTOR THROWS SPARKS YOU HAVE IT TIMED NEGATIVELY (retarded). This is important, as negative (or retarded) timing will make the motor wear out very fast. A motor with about 7* of advanced timing will have the longest lasting brushes, but since crawlers need both forward and reverse power we normally time at 0*, otherwise known as neutral timing.

You will always want to run zero or advanced timing. The Cobalt Puller runs very well with zero timing. To advance the timing, rotate the endbell in the opposite direction of the motor rotation. If your motor rotates clockwise for forward locomotion, rotate the endbell counterclockwise in relation to the can.

Care

First, it is a good idea to inspect the motor before and after every run. You may want to check the screws on the endbell. If they loosen you can damage the motor during a run. Loctite is a good idea, only a small amount of medium strength on the screws is needed.

The comm and Brushes should be in good condition. If the comm is black or purple or burned looking it is time to cut the comm and file down the brushes a bit. Running in water or dusty conditions will damage the comm quickly.

Second, always keep an eye on motor heat. In general, 160* F is an acceptable max temperature for motors and most ESC's. You can go higher, but depending on the grade of magnet you may damage the motor and weaken it.

Third, be sure to clean your motor periodically. You will need to use an electric motor specific cleaner. Most hobby shops carry it, or you can search Google for "electric motor cleaner". After cleaning lube the bearings with a light oil such as 3-in-1 or a motor specific bearing lubricant.


Timing

Now, on to timing your Cobalt Puller.

Amp draw method-- Loosen the endbell and put low voltage to the motor with no load (3v is easy to work with if you have it), rotate the endbell just a bit back and forth until the amp draw is lowest. Retighten.

If you put the voltage to the motor in the polarity that you will use it, it will be most accurate.

The brushes line up with the Screws on the endbell. At neutral timing the brushes will be between the magnetic north and south. You can visually line up the brushes, or you can use an ampmeter to help. At Zero timing the motor will draw the lowest amperage. NEVER run the motor with retarded timing, as the brush will throw sparks and eat the comm quickly.
1. Screw on the endbell slowly being sure to not damage the threads.
2. Use a bit of plastic or wood to seat the brushes onto the comm (I use a sharpened chopstick). If you use metal it will damage the brush and comm.
3. Screw the endbell down until the armature does not wiggle in the motor case, then back it off 1/4 to 1/2 turn until the brushes line up.
4. Tighten down the endbell screws (blue loctite will help keep them tight) being careful not to change the timing. The endbell screws on a Cobalt Puller take a 2mm allen wrench.
5. If the motor rotates the wrong direction either swap the motor leads or rotate the endbell 180*.

Now bolt that motor in and beat the snot out of your rig!!
Any Questions, post em up!

[JohnRobHolmes]

The timing on a two magnetic pole three slot generic 280, 540, etc motor is different than the Cobalt Puller motors. The brushes line up in the middle of a magnet instead of between them. For three slot motors I recommend a bit of forward timing. The motor should spin faster going forward than reverse. 7 degrees of timing is what I have found to be an optimal balance of brush life and reverse/ brake performance. Many three slot motors wear out rather quick at zero timing because of small variations in build, so advanced timing can save your comm and brushes.

You will always want to run zero or advanced timing. To advance the timing, rotate the endbell in the opposite direction of the motor rotation. If your motor rotates clockwise for forward locomotion, rotate the enbell counterclockwise in relation to the can.

Amp draw method-- Loosen the endbell and put low voltage to the motor (3v is easy to work with if you have it), rotate the endbell just a bit back and forth until the amp draw is lowest. Retighten.

If you put the voltage to the motor in the polarity that you will use it, it will be most accurate. I have found that our 540 motors will have different zero timing if you reverse the voltage.


Shown is a photo of the TorqueMaster Pro. This one is a "4 Magnet", but in reality it is a two magnetic pole motor with a slice in the magnets to reduce magnet strength (decreases torque and increases speed). This slice is dead center where the brushes will place for Zero timing. As you can see the degrees of timing are normal, IE a right angle is 90*. The indicated yellow timing lines are for a motor rotating clockwise, as looking at the shaft from the endbell side of the motor.

The yellow markings signify where the screws line up. There will normally be a dimple in the can.
The red line signifies brush orientation for zero timing. There is generally another dimple in the can, and is dead center on the magnets.

Reversing the power leads or rotating the endbell (and thus brushes) will reverse the motor rotation. This holds true for any motor.



Additional reading:
http://www.misbehavin-rc.com/pit-lane/motor-timing/g-motor-timing.asp
http://www.marcee.org/Articles/TimingBrushedMotor.html

[tsaun987]

Awesome, thanks for that JRH.

[Grizzly4x4]

Great writeup John!

I've been using HPI Stunt Spray to clean my Slash motor.
Should I use a dedicated electronics cleaner like I see at the auto parts store on my HH motors? Or is there not really much difference?

[braceysdad]

So your saying that when I occasionally wash my rig with a water hose is not sufficient?

[JohnRobHolmes]

A normal degreaser will eat at the epoxy or conformal coating of electronics. It will soften it and can cause shorts. The HPI stunt spray is not a good electronics cleaner unless it says for electric motors on the side.


A water hose is great if you re-oil and dry everything afterwards.

[Grizzly4x4]

A normal degreaser will eat at the epoxy or conformal coating of electronics. It will soften it and can cause shorts. The HPI stunt spray is not a good electronics cleaner unless it says for electric motors on the side.
It does say that it's safe for electronics. I don't remember if it specified "electric motors".
I'll buy something made for electric motors to take care of my HH motors.

[karlos]

Can you use electrical contact cleaner, or is what you are refering to something different?

[Grizzly4x4]

Can you use electrical contact cleaner, or is what you are refering to something different?
This is what I was thinking of using. It's easy to find at the auto parts stores.

[Rubbaneck]

I would stick to local hobby shops for your motor spary. It may cost a dollar more but it's designed for all out stuff. You can clean your lexal and plastic with most hobby brands which is a good benefit. Most important is the endbell from these motors are plastic. I've used CRC like was GRIZ is looking at and just beware of things melting our cheap plastic's we use in R/C, compared to automotive plastics.

[Grizzly4x4]

I would stick to local hobby shops for your motor spary. It may cost a dollar more but it's designed for all out stuff. You can clean your lexal and plastic with most hobby brands which is a good benefit. Most important is the endbell from these motors are plastic. I've used CRC like was GRIZ is looking at and just beware of things melting our cheap plastic's we use in R/C, compared to automotive plastics.
Thank you sensei, I will look at the hobby shop for something. "thumbsup"

[1BadJeepBruiser]

You guys definitely want to use Motor spray, I have used Dynamites stuff in the past and it works well. DO NOT use brake cleaner or other stuff like that, as already said it can weaken the bond on the magnets which is obviously NG.

Water is an abrasive, an old truck is to break a motor in using a cup of water. Excessive running in water will wear down the brushes and comm. If you do a lot of running in water, cleaning out the motor and re oiling the bearings frequently.

-Mike

[binaryterror]

There is nothing wrong with Lectra-Motive, its some amazing stuff for all electronics and motor safe. Cheaper and I prefer it to "hobby" motor spray.

[binaryterror]

Water is an abrasive, an old truck is to break a motor in using a cup of water. Excessive running in water will wear down the brushes and comm.

That is not true, the reason that trick was used was to lessen the arching of the new brushes. It's still the rotation on the brush with the comm that is wearing the brushes in not the Water. Of course the water lowers the break in temps and washes the carbon away.

We used to do this to the 540 Silver can Tamiya motors to have the best motors in racing.

[1BadJeepBruiser]

That is not true, the reason that trick was used was to lessen the arching of the new brushes. It's still the rotation on the brush with the comm that is wearing the brushes in not the Water. Of course the water lowers the break in temps and washes the carbon away.

We used to do this to the 540 Silver can Tamiya motors to have the best motors in racing.

Are you saying that water is not an abrasive ? or are you saying that running the motor in water over long period times will not wear it down?

I know why people break the stock motors in, in water, I used to do it myself. But I am still certain that water is an abrasive regardless...

[binaryterror]

Are you saying that water is not an abrasive ? or are you saying that running the motor in water over long period times will not wear it down?

Yup, distilled water is not an abrasive. It will still wear if you ran it for hours however no more than if you ran it dry.

[supercrawlerfreak]

its not the water its the minerals in the water, so yes if you ran them in distilled water then it wouldn't wear any faster, but how many rigs have you seen in perfectly clean distilled water:lol: its usually muddy dirty nasty water.

[bigflex]

its not the water its the minerals in the water, so yes if you ran them in distilled water then it wouldn't wear any faster, but how many rigs have you seen in perfectly clean distilled water:lol: its usually muddy dirty nasty water.


really! I only run my rig in distilled water and never in mud.:ror:

[NeXt559]

any tips on breaking in a new brushed motor?

ive seen some guy on youtube letting a motor run in a cup of water to break it in (dont think i'll ever try this method, im pretty pron to electicution and im sure alot of other people are also)

at the moment i run it at about 25 % for about 10 min.
is this right?
as w/ a new car (w/ a 4 banger); you should not rev your engine past 3,500 rpm untill the first 3,000 mile oil change. am i wrong in thinking along these lines?

[JohnRobHolmes]

For a crawler it isn't a big deal to break it in.

Running in water keeps it cooler and allows faster break in without burning stuff up. Low rpm for longer periods can accomplish the same thing.

[O.C.D.]

John, I am still having a few questions about this hog. I have used it for two comps and about 6 packs total. I would say no more than an hour or so of total runtime. I have not messed with the timing or anything. It is still how you sent it to me.

Here are my questions:

Like I have said before the motor gets hot really fast. I don't have a temp gauge, but at the last comp I had to cool it down after every run. I am running a 87/14 combo, and just put on a 12 pinion today. Just running around the carpet and setting my dig for ten minutes the motor got really hot?!
As I was looking into the heat issue I did notice a few sparks while I was holding it and using throttle. There were noticeably more sparks in reverse?!
I checked the comm and it is not discolored. The brushes are not discolored either. All the components have a bit of a tinge to them. Kind of like it is dirty but not.
Then periodically it would glitch. I know it isn't the ESC/receiver/batteries/or batteries in the transmitter. Maybe everything is alright but I am concerned as I don't want to ruin a $80 motor.
IS it normal for this motor to make a very pronounced electronics noise when power is applied? It can actually hurt my ears when I am too close. I have never heard a motor do this as much as the 7T does.MM/BEC/7T/7+8 1500 Elites.

Can you tell me anything from what I have described?

Thanks John.

[JohnRobHolmes]

Everything sounds good, and you should be able to visually check your timing. I would suspect binding in your drivetrain somewhere, because otherwise there is nothing that sounds amiss. You should try to find a temp gun. 120f is fine. 180f is not. I advise keeping it under 160f.


first take your pinion off and see if the rig rolls 100% free. Then check your pinion mesh to be sure that it isn't too tight.


The noise from the motor is normal with a MM ESC. They are indeed loud, especially at half throttle.

[JohnRobHolmes]

Update to post two here.

[Karadjas]

120f is fine. 180f is not. I advise keeping it under 160f.


On which part of the motor should we point our temp gauges?

Will the sticker do? :ror:

[JohnRobHolmes]

yep, sticker is fine. You can temp the comm too, but it will be hotter.

[rckcrawler]

Hey John do you suggest any timing to the 7t or just leave it were it is?

[JohnRobHolmes]

Any brushed motor will last longer with a bit of forward timing. A few cm of rotation on the can is enough.

[JohnRobHolmes]

Added some tech, modified some pics, and added some links at end of post 2. I will continue to edit and clarify as I get time.

[dirtman]

Is it ok to use a very light amount of compressed air to "blow out" any dust or debris in the motor?

[JohnRobHolmes]

That is toally fine, and a pretty good method as long as your compressed air does not have oil in it.

[dirtman]

cool, thanks

[65volkswagen]

Does all brushed motors have timming marks on the can. I probably need to advance mine a bit but do not know which way to go. Please help, Oh it is a 19 turn kumoto i beleive. Thanks

[JohnRobHolmes]

They do not all have timing marks. You will rotate the endbell in the opposite direction that the motor spins.

[65volkswagen]

Now will this help in heating up and for better performance. What advantage does this give (I hope i am not beating a dead horse with this question)

[JohnRobHolmes]

A very small amount of advance can keep the comm and brushes cool, but may cause the overall motor to heat up a bit more. 7* will make the brushes last longer in the forward direction, but cause more wear when braking and in reverse.

[Axial Rose]

Any brushed motor will last longer with a bit of forward timing. A few cm of rotation on the can is enough.

Do you mean mm instead of cm? 1 cm = ~3/8 of an inch

And yeah, I tried to PM you but you aren't accepting PM's . . . so . . .

AND - thanks for this thread - very helpful - I used to rewind industrial electrical motors - some were DC, mostly those were slip ring motors and generators - that was during the late 70's though . . . geeze, I'm old.

[JohnRobHolmes]

Yes indeed, mm is what I meant. Just a hair left or right can give some advancing.

Thank you for the props, I find electric motors very interesting. It is fun stuff.

[crashfab]

I have never broke in a motor--but for a long time I have been running brishless. With the new MOA I am thinking it might be more critical. I ordered a pair of your HH35 turn motors john---anything special I should do--or throw them in and run them?

[JohnRobHolmes]

A five minute break in at 2 to 5v would be good. Not completely necessary, but they may last a bit longer.

[crashfab]

A five minute break in at 2 to 5v would be good. Not completely necessary, but they may last a bit longer.

I assume just run them unloaded? Thanks john "thumbsup"

[JohnRobHolmes]

Yep. If the motor starts getting hot, give it a rest. If it throws sparks then the timing needs to be reset.

[crashfab]

Yep. If the motor starts getting hot, give it a rest. If it throws sparks then the timing needs to be reset.

Hopefully no sparks :mrgreen:

[MTHead]

Hey John,
What brushes would you recommend for replacements in the HHH motors?
Both the 2.2 and Super are long over due..

Thanks "thumbsup"

[JohnRobHolmes]

Any reedy style laydown will work. HIgh silver brushes can use lighter springs for better wear. Copper brushes are cheaper and wear longer.

[SMOKEY]

Hey John,
What brushes would you recommend for replacements in the HHH motors?
Both the 2.2 and Super are long over due..

Thanks "thumbsup"
Hey John bring your motor's down to the shop i can cut the com for you and i have the laydown style brushes there at least I think I do. I'll make sure and let you know on the brushes. on second thought you probably have a com lathe don't you or you could even use your tt lathe

[solomon7]

Question for ya John: Just broke in a new motor's brushes in water for a few minutes. I noticed in reverse there's no sparks but some in forward, the faster it spins the more sparks. Is this okay? My last one sparked the same and it crapped out a few runs later. Don't know how to fix it.

[JohnRobHolmes]

The timing needs to be adjusted a smidge when there is sparking. Sparking leads to dead motors fast.

[losikid]

i've ran some hh7t pullers out crawling for about an hour un aware to break them in, should i still do the break in process now, or is it to late, also do the 7t pullers come correctly timed or do they need the small advancement (i'm afraid i'll screw up the motor the minute i untighten a screw

[JohnRobHolmes]

The pullers are timed neutrally when you get them, and are already broken in. Unless you see sparking in forward throttle, you are good.

[losikid]

well i put electrical tape around the back to keep dirt out it, i guess i'll take it off and check

[losikid]

yea i seen some sparks,i have them on a lcc moa so one of them is sparks going forward and the other is sparks going backward, so i need to adjust the timing to maximize life

[JohnRobHolmes]

Yep, just the one with sparks when you go forward. It wont need much adjustment.

[losikid]

wait what do you mean by sparks cause if i look underneath the brushes i see little blue sparks or if i give it full throttle it will shoot a few sparks then no more, also could the comms being a slightly grey mean it need to be , retimed and i'm sure its fine but its realy loud when going slow and when its fast is quieter (i thought it was supposed to be the other way around)

[JohnRobHolmes]

You really should see any sparks at all, but if the comm needs a cut then you would see a little bit of blue sparks from the brush jumping.

They are loud when slow because of the ESC.

[losikid]

what do you mean if the comm needs a cut

[losikid]

after i clean the motor how do i oil the bearings, the lhs sold me labelle 101 oil (Some expensive stuff) and it says synthetic multi-purpose very light then it says do not use on plastic is this safe to use for the bearings and how do i apply it