Holmes' Cliff Climber

[JohnRobHolmes]

I received a Cliff Climber a few weeks back, and have been playing with it a while getting used to the stock setup. Generally I tear into stock trucks pretty fast and don't run them before screwing with them.

I have been very impressed with how quick Duratrax has modified the vehicle in small ways to improve the design AND is offering full product support in parts immediately. I also really love the body shape. :D


First impression: RTR comes in a nice carrying box and everything you need to run except Charger and batteries. I have a ton of electronics, so I may get another one in the Prebuilt form (http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXURC2&P=ML). It crawls very well for a crawler built by a company that hasn't been in the market previously. It is small enough to find obstacles anywhere, but capable enough that you can be surprised at how well it climbs (once the weight is moved lower at least). I am very impressed at the 4 link setup. While the center is a bit jacked up for my taste, the roll center and anti-squat of the rig is actually set up well.

Stock electronics certainly do the job. Servos handle the steering effort, and the motors and ESC are well suited for the task. It crawls very easy and controlled on one pack input, just short out the B1+ and B1- wires together. Then the second battery input can be used and the vehicle runs on a single pack. On two packs input (14.4v) the vehicle is very peppy, yet easy to crawl still.

Now time to modify it.

Current modifications:

Mamba Micro Pro ESC (brushed mode)
Cobalt Puller 454 motors
6s nimh input

Using just 6s nimh (elite 1500 cells) the weight on the chassis is decreased considerably, allowing much steeper climbing. The Cobalt puller motors offer a greater range of speed than stock while having more torque too. I had to shave a part of the mount bracket to clear the motors, and then I moved the lower links to the outside of the bracket. The Mamba Micro Pro is needed for the motors.


With this setup the vehicle is pretty fast. Fast enough to jump stuff. Just the way I like my crawlers :D It still creeps though, and it has more power than the rig can handle. After crawling for a while I went bashing through tall grass and got a front wheel tangled, stopping the rig fast and breaking a gear in the axle. This is because I was being stupid and full throttle gunning through two foot high grass. If I had used more discretion with my driving I wouldn't have broken. Good thing metal gears are on the way from DTX (as well as CVDs), and I can still get plastic gears.

All in all, I can't wait to get this rig running again and crawling! Future mods include 1.9 tires, removing the rear servo, moving the electronics lower, and possibly getting a new chassis.

[Scattman]

Is one of the links off on the axle end in the 3rd pic?

Loving the mini pullers. "thumbsup"

[JohnRobHolmes]

Good eye. It isn't off, just cocked since I outboarded one side but not the other. It isn't staying stock for long anyway. Very impressed with the handling though, with some better tires and a rear lockout it will be a very fun rig.

[Bermbuster]

Looking good..."thumbsup"
curious as why you used the black and white wire on the motor side of the esc....Castle Creations instructions say to use the red and black wire combination....
berm

[JohnRobHolmes]

It didn't work as per the instructions, so I used the white wire and it worked. I was kinda stumped, and I need to call Castle about it.

Good question!

[SlickRockSpider]

John

Great looking crawler "thumbsup" and the lid is really cool. I looked on your web site and I could not find cobalt puller 454 motors. Where can I purchase these wicked motors at.


Evan

[twisted]

in stock form how long did you get on one pack ?

[JohnRobHolmes]

I never managed to finish a pack in stock form. On a single pack 1500 I would guess at least an hour and a half of smooth crawling.

I can't manage to crawl more than an hour with any rig anyway. I either break, swap vehicles, get bored, or can't crawl that long because of time constraint.

[DeaDShorT]

I figured you'd have 2 esc's and a rear lockout already, and running on the stick radio.;-)

[BritCrawler]

It didn't work as per the instructions, so I used the white wire and it worked. I was kinda stumped, and I need to call Castle about it.

Good question!

What symptoms did you get from the ESC when it 'didn't work'? I hooked my new Sidewinder up on my AX-10 last week for the first time (on red and black) and it went scatty, even after I calibrated it on the handset I was using. It was banging back and forth between forward and reverse at full forward or reverse throttle, shaking and all sorts of crap. I was equally stumped...

Anyhoo, being a computer geek, I hooked the Castle Link to it and hooked it to the PC. I found they come set for 'Brushless' mode out of the box, and I was using a brushed motor (which I'll eventually be swapping out for one of yours :)). I just set it to 'Brushed Reversing' and saved the settings and it's worked flawlessly since then :)

[JohnRobHolmes]

It did absolutely nothing except blink at me, no tones from the motor at all. I knew it wasn't hooked up right so I chanced it and tried the white wire, then it sang the normal song on startup.

[JohnRobHolmes]

Outer axles swap out with AX-10 stuff. This axle just got very interesting indeed. The stock one is the longer one with the shallow dogbone cup. I replaced them with axial stubs and hexes to bring the track width in a bit from 9.75 to 9.25"

[DeaDShorT]

Did it increase the steering any?

[JohnRobHolmes]

Nope. Stock steers pretty sharp thanks to the shallow cup. I will report back on steering once I get the front done.

[Shaun]

Awesome, I'm planning on picking up a smaller crawler soon to play around with, I'm between the Losi and the Duratrax.I really like the set-up you have, nice work!"thumbsup"

[jdawg53]

Looks good John can't wait to try this setup myself.
J

[cartronicshn]

John

Great looking crawler "thumbsup" and the lid is really cool. I looked on your web site and I could not find cobalt puller 454 motors. Where can I purchase these wicked motors at.


Evan
JRH, you didn't answer this very interesting question:), i would also like to get a couple for mine "thumbsup"
I also have a question, will a sidewinder work ok with these 2 little stock motors and a 3s?

[JohnRobHolmes]

The CP 454's are on my site now in the brushed motor section.

A sidewinder would work fine and be plenty overkill. 3s would be very fast though, as the motors are 2700kv. They could take the voltage, but at least in this vehicle it isn't needed.

[cartronicshn]

Thanks for the info JRH"thumbsup", i will be calling you later for some motors and batt packs for mine.

[JavelinSST390]

Thanks for all the info. Will you be offering any other motors for these, for those of us too cheap (or poor) to want to replace the stock ESC?

And what bare-minimum ESC would you recommend to power a pair of Cobalt 454's?

[JohnRobHolmes]

I am using the Mamba mini, but any brushed ESC will work.


I can't find anything any better than the stock motors that isn't MUCH better than the stock motors. The 2.3mm shaft kinda limits options too.

[cartronicshn]

I am using the Mamba mini, but any brushed ESC will work.


I can't find anything any better than the stock motors that isn't MUCH better than the stock motors. The 2.3mm shaft kinda limits options too.
I am confused, so the 454's are only slighlty better? i want to get some slower motors with more grunt on the low end.

[JohnRobHolmes]

The 454's are leaps and bounds above the stock motors. I just couldn't find anything in the middle. Either non-servicable stock motors or cobalts, nothing in between.

The 454's are about 2.7x faster than stock, but they can be run on low voltage and still have tons of torque.

[cartronicshn]

The 454's are leaps and bounds above the stock motors. I just couldn't find anything in the middle. Either non-servicable stock motors or cobalts, nothing in between.

The 454's are about 2.7x faster than stock, but they can be run on low voltage and still have tons of torque.
Understood and about to order"thumbsup"

[kulangflow]

It didn't work as per the instructions, so I used the white wire and it worked. I was kinda stumped, and I need to call Castle about it.

Good question!
I had the exact same thing happen with mine and used the same solution. I called Castle and they were stumped as well. I'm guessing they just had an odd batch that came out.

It works great now though with the "alternative wiring".

[Mic]

Do you think that the 454 would work in the Losi?

[JohnRobHolmes]

Do you think that the 454 would work in the Losi?

No clue, I haven't seen a losi yet. I think it may be too big for it, and I don't know what pinion size the losi is either- nobody will take the time to tell me.

[countryboy4life]

Looks good JRH!!! "thumbsup""thumbsup" This should be on BYT...I think!!! :roll:

[JohnRobHolmes]

why is it unpluged in to 2nd pic?????

Because they are poser shots. I had already broken the front gear by the time I got sense enough to take pics. Again, the breakage was my fault for having too much power and using it without discretion.

Well, since I was being a tool and broke a gear with some aftermarket power I decided to modify the truck a bit whilst it was taken apart. I just took the chassis off and bolted the axles up to a HBZ warthog tuber meant for an AX10. I used spare TLT kit links and emaxx ball ends for new linkages. I am waiting on parts from tower to get it driving again, parts I bought were extra gearsets, a ball bearing kit, extra dogbones, and the 11t pinions. I will be bringing it to the comp in KC for a play rig in the new form.

Once I get the electronics installed I will get some more flex from the added weight. This is more of a play rig than a comp rig, as the tuber is heavier than it needs to be for this little build. This puppy will be a wheelie machine now! But I will have to take it easy until the metal replacement parts are ready.


I really like this tuber with a short wheelbase. I will put body panels on later.

[speedemall]

holmes,do you have any vids of your cliff climber in action?I'd love to see one

[JohnRobHolmes]

Not yet, I will try and get one up soon.

[axialscorpioncr]

Good eye. It isn't off, just cocked since I outboarded one side but not the other. It isn't staying stock for long anyway. Very impressed with the handling though, with some better tires and a rear lockout it will be a very fun rig. nice ride man
"thumbsup"

[rn38]

What about the reedy 380's?? I think those are rebuildable maybe rewindable. I know when I put 1 in my 18r it actually slowed down. Il'l check tomorrow if the its truely servicable.

[twisted]

they never redid the parts manual. the truck actually comes with 11t pinions.

[JavelinSST390]

Yeah, but they need like 8t or 9t pinions...

JRH, got a source?

[JohnRobHolmes]

What about the reedy 380's?? I think those are rebuildable maybe rewindable. I know when I put 1 in my 18r it actually slowed down. Il'l check tomorrow if the its truely servicable.

Reedy only has 280 motors to my knowledge

Yeah, but they need like 8t or 9t pinions...

JRH, got a source?

I am working on it, I am getting tooling made so my machinist can cut them for both the Berg and CC.

[jdawg53]

JRH
I ran the motors for a while yesterday. WOW! They are sick man. You weren't kidding about how fast they are, and the torque is awesome. I put them in my fully optioned kit so I will bring it along with me to the Nats next week.
I will call you later today.
J

[rn38]

Reedy only has 280 motors to my knowledge




You may be right I have to check what it is. hehehe

You are right!!!"thumbsup" Just assumed that since the 18r's were 370 cans and it fits that it was the same.

[cartronicshn]

John, did you get the parts for your truck yet? i would like to hear any more pointers and tips on your setup.

[JohnRobHolmes]

Yep, got them in. I just need to hack a few tubes off the frame so I can put lower shocks on there. Will do after breakfast.

[cartronicshn]

Yep, got them in. I just need to hack a few tubes off the frame so I can put lower shocks on there. Will do after breakfast.
:shock: That has been a looong breakfast....:lol:

[Tupers]

Looking good I can;t wait to see it complete with the tube chassis. I've just ordered the Yokomo crawler so I might have to try those cobalt motors. Can you tell me what turn rating they are?

[Mike Poulson]

What are you using for pinions on your motors John?



Mike

[cartronicshn]

Same question as mike's here, i received the motors today and the cc pinions don't fit, smaller diameter shaft, are these 48 pitch standard? i know the pinions i have for the tlt and other rigs i have fit the 454's shaft.

[JohnRobHolmes]

I am using the stock pinions from the berg. It is listed on the 454 page, first line--

**For Cliff Climber use the stock Berg pinions work (mod 0.6). Stock Cliff Climber motors use 2.3mm bore mod 0.6 pinions**


These also work http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXFEA5&P=7

[cartronicshn]

Yeah that's what i figured, i drilled out the stock ones (let's see how long they last) while i get some pinions.

[JohnRobHolmes]

Should work just fine. I got the truck all running, just no time to take pics yet. I am hustling to get ready for Moab.

[salgon]

Hi John, did tried the pullers with the stock ESC? And wath did you do with the battery cables that you said you use just one battery pack on the stock ESC? How you do it?

[semble]

It didn't work as per the instructions, so I used the white wire and it worked. I was kinda stumped, and I need to call Castle about it.

I had the exact same thing happen with mine and used the same solution. I called Castle and they were stumped as well. I'm guessing they just had an odd batch that came out.

I just had the same issue. Did you ever get any word from castle on this?

[JohnRobHolmes]

Hi John, did tried the pullers with the stock ESC? And wath did you do with the battery cables that you said you use just one battery pack on the stock ESC? How you do it?

On the stock ESC, the "b2" positive and negative power the BEC, so use those and you can have just one pack to run. You need to short the B1 wires to get power to the motor. The stock ESC does not run the pullers.

I just had the same issue. Did you ever get any word from castle on this?

It is a bug in the firmware, they may not fix it and just update the manuals instead.

[sweli]

John, I eventually want 454's, but cannot swing them now, so I am going to volt up and gear down a little to play with this CC(couch climber for me).
I found 8-10T 48P 2.3mm pinions.
I do not know heli's, so I am not sure I understand the 0.4/0.5/0.6 Mod verbage??

What pinions specs are for the stock 380's? 2.3mm shaft. 48P?

What about the Integy 1/18 pinion sets
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXKWJ2&P=7
I believe they are for 2mm, but could be bored out easily enough (using two drills).

[JohnRobHolmes]

The stock pinions on the CC are 2.3mm bore .6 mod. 48p is not the same.

[jdawg53]

Sweli
You will not be able to use 8-10t pinions on the CC. I suggest you add weight to the front to help get more front traction. The stall occurs because it wants to send power to the path of least resistance......so if your front wheels are in the air or not grabbing, it will send more power to the front.
You can add weight to the front wheels, mount one of the batteries on top of the front steering servo. Just a few examples.
Hope this helps till you can get the 454's. They are awesome motors.
J

[randy1]

is the stall caused by the stock esc

[sweli]

Jdawg53,

Why won't I be able to run 8 or 9T? Is the diameter of the 8 or 9T pinions too small, so I will not get enough motor mount adjustment to mesh well?

What about T-400 for $8.99 at Tower? I cannot find specific specs, but supposed to have more power (higher wind count) then the S-400.

BTW, my setup is a LOT different then stock.
http://www.rccrawler.com/forum/showthread.php?t=139142

Could not get the stock tires off of the stock rims, even with HIGH heat?
So for right now, lead is around inside edge of rim in front.
Batts in back to clear front steering.

thx!

[jdawg53]

Stall is not "caused" by the esc. It is caused by the current flowing through the path of least resistance. If the front wheels are in the air or not grabbing then the front is the path with least resistance. So, put one of the batteries on the front steering servo and weight the front wheels. This helps ALOT!
J

[jdawg53]

Sweli
You cannot use 8 & 9 tooth pinions because the motor mounts do not allow that much adjustability.

I have not tried our T-400 motor. Typically, the airplane motors focus on rpm not torque. I try to order a couple up and try them.

I know what you are saying about the tire glue. It is goooood!

J

[randy1]

hey john where has your lil truck gone.i was wondering if you had tried the 370 motor in your cc . dose it have the balls to do it. atomic has the pinions for the smaller shaft

[pmikeyg]

Whats the easiest way to jump the 2 pins to run the single pack? I was gonna use a jumper pin like on a computer....it should work.

[HardcoreTJ]

http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXEW96&P=7


Will this pinion work for the CC with the 454's???

[STANG KILLA SS]

no. 32 pitch is much too course. john posted the metric pinions earlier that work.

[richmondcrawler]

They crawl great, and same as cathocism (sp?) I snapped my axle innards the first serious time crawling rocks. I used 0.6 mod pinions from Towerhobbies made by Novak for fitment of their motors to Duratrax stuff. They sell a 3-pack of 10,11,12 (or 11,12,13) and I used the smallest ones. I also had to relocate the lower links the outer positions. I wired 2 6cell packs in parallel for extra weight up from, but also have a smaller LiPo 7.4V pack to run singly if less weight is needed. Can drop truck onto it's side on wheels and it won't flip over, so balance seems good. See my pics for my HomeDepot chassis in the photo gallery. WB is 11.5-12 inches.

[STANG KILLA SS]

links to these pinion packs please!!!!!!!

[jdawg53]

http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXUFE3&P=7

[richmondcrawler]

link to Tower for what I bought and used 11,12,13 tooth mod 0.6 pinions, work fine, no modifications at all for the Cobalts in the CC.
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXUFE3&P=7

[cartronicshn]

JRH, sorry for the threadjack, if you run 48 pitch gears, will these turn the diffs or will there be binding?

[JohnRobHolmes]

normal 48p gears will wear down the internals on the CC. It wont even be close to proper mesh.

[p3ripperfw]

would I be able to use that mamba micro with the stock motors and a single 3 cell 1320 mah lipo?