My Rock Force Project:Samurai

[killjoyken]

Why the name "Samurai"? When I used to manage a muffler shop, I had one customer bring in his Suzuki Samurai for a custom exhaust. He told me some great stories of how his brothers (who had Jeeps) had a hard time keeping up with him on trails. It was pretty well modified and looked really cool on the lift. Anyway, this rig brought back memories of that little Samurai and hopefully it will someday be able to compete with some Axials and Bergs.

I took the Samurai to Dana Rock park in San Jose for some side by side testing against my GC-1 Axial today with Dewmerz and his SWX. I'll post a full review later tonight. For now, here are some pics:

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b294/Kenstyle/DSCF3862.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b294/Kenstyle/DSCF3863.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b294/Kenstyle/DSCF3856.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b294/Kenstyle/DSCF3858.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b294/Kenstyle/DSCF3860.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b294/Kenstyle/DSCF3861.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b294/Kenstyle/DSCF3864.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b294/Kenstyle/DSCF3866.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b294/Kenstyle/DSCF3867.jpg

[HiloDB1]

very nice "thumbsup". So how do you like it so far compaired to the GC1? Damn all you guys that already have yours built :flipoff:. I was hoping the mail man would drop mine off today :-(

[Hurley0706]

What is your track width with those wheels and tires?

[killjoyken]

Track width from outside edge to outside edge is 11". That's one of the current problems...it's too damn wide. Trying to wedge this thing through a crevasse was difficult at best. I couldn't walk the tires on the sides and would have to go in at an angle causing the rig to tip sideways and get bound up. Someone's going to have to make special offset wheels specifically for the RF. I'm going to mill down some Dirty Harry adapters on Monday and see if I can get them to work. Another problem is the huge 6mm wheel nut. A 10mm socket is too big to fit the DHs so I may not have enough room to tighten the nut.

As for the axles, they have good points and bad points. I'll start with the good. The worm gears hold the rig on any angle. The tires would slip before the axles would rotate. Best feature by far. Durable as hell to boot. I got bound up pretty bad more than a few times and took a few nastly tumbles to the bottom of the hill and almost every time it would land back on it's wheels and I'd just drive it back up.

Downsides? There's not enough steering. (the wide track isn't helping) I may be able to gain a little more by trimming the knuckles and c's, but I'm going to end up being limited by the axles. Beefiness comes at a price. The dig will probably be necessary for this to be competitive. My GC-1 will literally drive circles around the RF. On one section, my GC-1 was able to make a 180 around a rock without reversing or dig while the RF took 3 reverses. It needs dig bad!

While you do gain clearance under the pumkin, the axles get cought everywhere else. I think taller tires will help a little, but the axles are going to need to be ground down like TLT axles. The lip that runs the length of the axles is the main problem, but the shock/link mounts are also problems. They hang down to the bottom of the axles and get caught frequently. Yet another part I'll have to make. Kyosho really should have gone with a round pumpkin design like Axial and every 1:1 crawler. The screw heads that hold the axles halfs together also like to snag on everything too, esp the ones near the c's. Not sure what I'm going to do about those yet.

The shocks. Well, I used the brass pistons with 20wt and they're way too slow. The instructions say to cut another edge off the plastic pistons and run 15wt, but I seem to have lost 2 of the plastic ones, so I may try drilling a hole in the brass ones. Most likely I'm going to try losi shocks when I switch to a different chassis. I've got a new chassis in mind that I'll be trying out soon. ;-)

Ahhh...the chassis. Brings me back to my TLT days. It's like a cross between the stock TLT chassis and the Junfac chassis. Nevermind that it's too bulky and too wide, the worst part was the edges of the skid getting caught on every crest. If it wasnt the axles stopping the rig, it was the skid. If I kept the center of the skid lined up with the peak of the rock it would slide over smoothly, but an inch to either side and I'd be stuck. It's going to take a little grinding to fix this.

After 2 packs, my motor plate is tweaked. I could already flex it with one finger enough to almost take the pinion out of mesh, so I wasn't expecting it to last anyway. I was running a 10t mod for testing and with the stock gearing on 3s lipo it was barely faster than my GC-1's 35t on 3s. The stock gearing is waaaaaaay too low. Motor was hot, esc was hot, and the battery was really hot. To get the same wheel speed as the GC-1 I really had to spin that 10t. Too much amp draw nearly killed a 2100mah Maxamps pack and puffed an old DN 2150mah 15c 3s. Now I've got to shell out another $60 for high speed gears. Along with another $30 for dig. Wow, add wheels, tires, electronics and a comp legal body and this is one expensive rig!

In stock form, the RF was only able to do one thing my GC-1 couldn't, but I'm chalking it up to tires. It was an uphill diagonal line across a 6" gap to the right. Dewmerz was able to cross it with his SWX on Claws, but the Panthers on my GC-1 kept folding over and I'd tip and roll until my rig rolled down the hill and snapped an axle. The RF was able to follow the same line as the SWX fairly easily. Unfortunately, it struggled in places where the GC-1 flowed. It does well in climbs and sidehills well given it's top heavy chassis, but would freqently get hungup when the course had a lot of holes. Dana Rock Park has a lot of jagged rock that will test a rig's ability to slide over rocks, so it was the perfect place to find the RF's faults.

While it didn't meet all my expectations today, there was one saving grace. I drove it back to my car, while I had to carry my GC-1. If that's not a testament to it's durablity, then nothing is. So far on my GC-1, Dana has claimed 1 Axial CVD, 2 RCP straight axles, 1 rear axle housing, 1 rod end, 1 steering link and it's killing my Panthers! As for the RF, 1 bent steering link (that I easily bent back by hand while still attached) and that will soon be replaced with aluminum rod and moved above the knuckes.

Am I dissapointed? A little. If this was a $250 kit like the Axial, then no, but considering the price I expect a little more. When the Axial came out it also needed some tuning to make it good, but not that much. And for the price you had extra cash for mods. The Kyosho (like most Kyoshos) starts at a higher price point, but delivers possiblly the most durable axles ever put on a crawler. With all the great designers and fabricators here on RCCrawler, it won't be long before we see the RF beating out the Axials and Bergs for 1st place.

[killjoyken]

Also forgot to add: I had 6oz in the front tires and 3oz in the rear and I think the front could definitely use more weight. On some climbs it would lift the right front wheel, but it wasn't torque twist. It wouldn't rise with throttle, it would just hang there and bumping the throttle wouldn't bring it down. I'm hoping more weight in the wheels and lighter shock fluid will cure this.

[Hurley0706]

Great write up. It is good to hear the pros and cons after some real testing.

Thanks again. I won't have mine until next week and it will go right to 3D modeling....

[stampedeproject]

You might want to look at the Pro-Line Epic rear Beadlocks instead. They will shave 1/4" off the overall width for you.

You are on target with the shock oil, I still need lighter oil and I think I used 30Wt and its SLOW.

Just posted a video of the rig with a Novak 4.5R KV brushless system that I think proves your point, the gear reduction is way way to much.

Looking good man!!

[Dewmerz]

It was fun today watching Ken drive two crawlers switching back and forth between profiles on the DX3R. Several times I thought it would not make it but it did even though it did not look as elegant as the other crawlers we ran today. Dana Rock Park took out my SWX today so half way though the run I had to fall back to my SW3.

I like the axles but the chassis turned me off from looking for a kit. When the axles are available separate I will most likely pick up a set. I'm not a huge fan of the front link setup but it did appear to work.

[killjoyken]

Where's your star, Newbie? :razz:

Yeah, running 2 rigs at once is a little frustrating. Run the line, switch profiles, run it again, get mad when RF gets stuck, rinse and repeat. Keeping mental notes of all the needed improvements was wearing me thin....

[Hurley0706]

The side by side drive time was great I am sure. I will do the same thing with my Berg. My hopes are not very high right now......

[killjoyken]

The side by side drive time was great I am sure. I will do the same thing with my Berg. My hopes are not very high right now......

Stock RF vs a Berg? :lol: That should be fun!

On another note, I found a way to fit my DHs. Take the narrowest hub adapter, bolt it to the hub, then bolt the wheel to the adapter! Not exactly quick change, but it works. "thumbsup"

Nevermind, track ended up the same at 11" with Panthers. Crap.

Just shot an email to Vanquish about making wheels for the RF. He's local so hopefully we can get something made.

[goobs]

but I seem to have lost 2 of the plastic ones, so I may try drilling a hole in the brass ones. Most likely I'm going to try losi shocks when I switch to a different chassis. I've got a new chassis in mind that I'll be trying out soon. ;-)


nope u didnt lose them cuz mine didnt come with them. i know i searched for 20 min.

i personally would like a new chassis also and a 4-link.

i also agree with ur write up 100%. everything u said i experienced. i was running 5.5" rubicons too!

[JohnRobHolmes]

Wow that is a narrow body!


Interesting issues with the crawler. I was worried about the gear ratio. Does anybody know what the reduction at the axle is? Maybe a motor could be ran to them with no tranny, or a tiny tranny with minimal reduction.

[EeePee]

...
The standard axle ratio is 30:1 and the final drive ratio with the included pinion and spur gear is 143.33:1. It's quite a bit higher ratio ("lower" gearing) than most crawlers, which is why it's able to use a more standard motor. The optional "high speed" worm gear set changes the axle ratio to 15:1. The full range of final drive ratios using the optional gears ranges from 46.8:1 up to 161.25:1.

I'd build it with the high speed gears. That should lessen the parking brake effect. Then try the Tekin Push adjustments.

[JohnRobHolmes]

2:1 at the motor would be plenty for most guys then. 143:1 is just rediculous unless you run some crazy fast motor!


Problem would be clearing the driveshaft around the motor without using an idler gear. All kinds of cool things that could be done with these axles though.

[Reflection]

Maybe a motor could be ran to them with no tranny.

2 motors,direct drive would definitly be interesting.

What size pinion/spur is in there stock? Once I can get my hands on one of these,I'll be looking for ways to speed it up. Final drive on my current comp rigs is in the 35:1 area. I'll need to get close to that in order to be happy with it.

[killjoyken]

The kit gives you a 18/86 with a 30:1 gear reduction in the axles good for 143:1 total reduction. The High speed gears are 15:1 which would give you a 71:1 reduction with the stock spur and pinion.

The smallest 48p spur I have is a 60 and the biggest pinion I have is a 31 which would give me a 58:1 total reduction. I'm running 47:1 in my GC-1, so it's close. Actually, that would probably put the motor into the driveshaft. Let me rethink this...:?

[JohnRobHolmes]

Mock it up before discounting it. The pinion is large enough that the spur center (output) may clear the motor. A longer output shaft may be needed to put the yokes beyond the motor case.

[killjoyken]

Mock it up before discounting it. The pinion is large enough that the spur center (output) may clear the motor. A longer output shaft may be needed to put the yokes beyond the motor case.

I'm pulling the motor right now. I did manage to find a 34t pinion also. I had a question for you John. You list your 35t handwound at 1565kv and the Cobalt 7t at 1834kv. How can the 7t have a lower kv than the 25t?

[JohnRobHolmes]

The 7t is slower because:

It has a larger armature diamter than a 540
It is longer than a 540
The magnets are stronger than a common 540
It has 7 motor slots instead of 3 (the big one)

Were you running your 10t with some advanced timing?

[chrisjlittle]

2:1 at the motor would be plenty for most guys then. 143:1 is just rediculous unless you run some crazy fast motor!


Problem would be clearing the driveshaft around the motor without using an idler gear. All kinds of cool things that could be done with these axles though.


I'm definitely going to get one of these, and I was thinking about running a GD600 to an eritex t-case for a trans. I think you could get a pretty sturdy setup that way, with the right gear reduction. It'd be pretty small too. I'm not interested in buying the high speed gears, I want as much redux in the axles as possible. Or maybe a 7t cobalt straight to the t-case:twisted: I'm sure that would be fun!

[Reflection]

I'm definitely going to get one of these, and I was thinking about running a GD600 to an eritex t-case for a trans. I think you could get a pretty sturdy setup that way, with the right gear reduction. It'd be pretty small too. I'm not interested in buying the high speed gears, I want as much redux in the axles as possible. Or maybe a 7t cobalt straight to the t-case:twisted: I'm sure that would be fun!


You might be on to something there. Doubt you'd need both reductions though. 30:1 in the axles,like John stated,2:1 on the motor side would be about right for most people.

[JohnRobHolmes]

These axels would be awesome mated to a 3 spd tranny, if you had overdrive for getting around :lol:

[chrisjlittle]

You might be on to something there. Doubt you'd need both reductions though. 30:1 in the axles,like John stated,2:1 on the motor side would be about right for most people.

The eritex t-case ratio is 1:1. It might be a touch high without the GD600. I ran 32:1 with a 10t cobalt in my old WK comp rig and it was a bit fast on 3 cell. A lathe motor wouldn't have had the cajones to move the truck around at that ratio I think. I've decided I like about a 40:1 ratio for 2.2, but I'm not sure I could gear a gd600 that tall.

[killjoyken]

The 72/34 meshes fine, but I think you'll be limited to 70/35 for off the shelf gears which would give you a nice even 60:1 ratio. The 60/34 wouldn't mesh without slotting the holes and grinding away at the spur shaft mount, although that would drop you to a 51:1 ratio.

Looks like I had the timing on the 10t at +2 degrees. It's a really old motor that I lightly cleaned the comm and slapped in new brushes so I wouldn't call it the best. I planned to run your Cobalt 7t and FX-R Pro, but considering I'll have to run a larger battery I'm not so sure. Now I'm thinking a 30t might be better suited since I might be able to run a smaller battery on the upper links once I switch to a 4 link setup. I really don't want to mount the battery on the chassis or above the servo.

[sddill]

When mine gets here I am going to try this mamba 5700 system I have here and a 3 s lipo :ror:

[killjoyken]

When mine gets here I am going to try this mamba 5700 system I have here and a 3 s lipo :ror:

Change the gearing first otherwise you'll still be going slow but killing your motor. Take a look and stampedeproject's video with the 4.5R. With the stock gear reduction it's pointless.

Pics of the gear change:
72/34
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b294/Kenstyle/DSCF3883.jpg

60/34
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b294/Kenstyle/DSCF3886.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b294/Kenstyle/DSCF3887.jpg

[Hurley0706]

Maybe we can find a better selection of 32p gears?

This is a great thread guys, some really great tech.

I am thinking about two motors and direct coupled to the axles, 55t possibly.

[HiloDB1]

killjoyken where did you get the 34t pinion?

[chrisjlittle]

perhaps someone could make an adaptor to fit a spur gear on the motor? Kimbrough makes 32p spurs ranging all the way down to 32t, a 44 or a 46 would work nicely with the 72t spur if it'd fit in the chassis, and it looks like it would...

[Hurley0706]

Raptorman: And what's your secret?

x2........not really seeing how that is possible

[killjoyken]

I made a new motor mount for my new chassis and was able to use a 60t spur by slotting the motor holes and grinding down the spur shaft housing. It's close, but doesn't rub so I'll give it a try. The nice thing is that the whole motor/spur assembly is super compact now. I designed the skid to be 2" wide and the motor and spur barely hang out the sides. Looks like I won't be able to run a Puller, but I'm thinking a 30t might suit my needs better.

The 60/34 combo will give me a 53:1 reduction. Should work fine. Maybe I'll bolt up a 19t motor for testing. The spur and pinion are Robinson Racing.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b294/Kenstyle/DSCF3888.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b294/Kenstyle/DSCF3889.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b294/Kenstyle/DSCF3890.jpg

[HiloDB1]

Are they 32p or 48p? I couldnt find a 32p 34t pinion on Robinson's website. Thanks

[killjoyken]

48p.

[HiloDB1]

Thanks "thumbsup", I think Ill do a 70/35 a final ratio 60:1 should be fine for me. Planning on running a Cobalt 7T off 3s.

[Dewmerz]

Looking good. Can't wait to see how it fits in the chassis.

[killjoyken]

Thanks "thumbsup", I think Ill do a 70/35 a final ratio 60:1 should be fine for me. Planning on running a Cobalt 7T off 3s.

Should work perfectly with that setup, plus you don't need to modify the motor plate. :)

Dewmerz: I still don't see that star. :-P

[Reflection]

Raptorman: And what's your secret?

x2........not really seeing how that is possible

Same knuckles as my super,it'll turn a 180 within it's wheelbase. Some of it is wheelspeed,allot of it is the knuckles.

[JohnRobHolmes]

Raptor, it is all wheelspeed and you know it!

[Reflection]

Raptor, it is all wheelspeed and you know it!


Oh yes,your handy work plays a good part in it"thumbsup". I may try a little test with and without wheelspeed.

[killjoyken]

Same knuckles as my super,it'll turn a 180 within it's wheelbase. Some of it is wheelspeed,allot of it is the knuckles.

Ummm, doesn't your super have 4WS? ;-)

[Reflection]

Ummm, doesn't your super have 4WS? ;-)

Yes it does...not for long though.:lol: I'm ditching rear steer for dig. With the front knuckles ability to turn 50 degrees +,Honestly,I seldom even use the rear steer. I know what those stock knuckles will turn,been running them for years.

[killjoyken]

Yes it does...not for long though.:lol: I'm ditching rear steer for dig. With the front knuckles ability to turn 50 degrees +,Honestly,I seldom even use the rear steer. I know what those stock knuckles will turn,been running them for years.

How much modification is required for the knuckles and c's? And is this with CVDs? Have any pics of your steering setup? :)

[Reflection]

I didn't want to clutter Jasons thread up anymore,so I moved the subject of your steering to your thread"thumbsup"

How much modification is required for the knuckles and c's? And is this with CVDs? Have any pics of your steering setup? :)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v72/Raptorman57/RC%20stuff/IMG_1022.jpg

Little mods to the knuckle. Cut some of the axle tube away for rod end clearance. There's ALLOT of info in the Twin Force section that could be VERY handy with these trucks."thumbsup"

[goobs]

how about a link please:-(
i searched but i dont have time to look.

[Hurley0706]

The extra width of those TF axles definitely allow for the increased steering angle. With the 2.2's we will be running into links and shocks before we get anywhere near that.

But every bit we can get up to that point will be great.

[killjoyken]

The extra width of those TF axles definitely allow for the increased steering angle. With the 2.2's we will be running into links and shocks before we get anywhere near that.

But every bit we can get up to that point will be great.

After removing the panhard mount I picked up a little more steering to the right and I'm going to try trimming the knuckles and axle C's tonight to see how much steering I can pick up. I'm just hoping the dogbones will allow it without binding.

I've got the new chassis mocked up and I'm at 12 1/8" wb with the stock lower links. I'm still mocking up the upper links to get the axle clocked the way I want them. The main problem I'm going to run into is battery placement. I can't see anyway of mounting to the axle and it's looking like I'm not going to have much room on the upper links because they're so high. I'll post more pics tonight.

[goobs]

you cant go much more than stock in turning cuz the dogbones bind on the cups. i tried earlier. we're gonna need cvd's.

[Reflection]

After removing the panhard mount I picked up a little more steering to the right and I'm going to try trimming the knuckles and axle C's tonight to see how much steering I can pick up. I'm just hoping the dogbones will allow it without binding.


Back when I ran stock stubs in my Twin,I took a little 1/2" drum sander and opened the cups up a little. Gave me a touch more."thumbsup"

[fwilly]

From what I've been reading in the Twinforce section, Savage CVDs fit in the hub carrier, but we would have to shorten the axles

[JohnRobHolmes]

CVDs from any 1/8 scale buggy would work too, especially kyosho brand (no shimmin needed). The internal shaft would need to be cut to fit.

[fwilly]

Is there any way to put 2.2 hexes on a buggy CVD?

[HiloDB1]

I would think the stock RF hex would work.

[fwilly]

Retaining the wheel would be interesting...

All the buggies I've looked at have the threaded part the the wheel nut threads onto as part of the 17mm hex. The only threaded part is the internal threads for the set screw for the hex pin. I guess you could use a 5mm bolt (I think they are 5mm set screws), and a spacer to retain the wheel.

[Bart bender]

There are CVDs (http://www.rccrawler.com/forum/showpost.php?p=949295&postcount=78) that use the same style as the stub. I have modded my Twin inner axle drive cups to eliminate the cup altogether. It would be easy enough to do the same to both sides of the RF due to the housing being split in half.
http://www.shopkyosho.com/img/product_images/410/107456afac25b636157e628273594a0d.jpg
These are longer than the long TF shafts
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b80/shugunga/Twin%20tech%20and%20parts/IMG_4108.jpg

This is how I modded my Twin (http://www.rccrawler.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1179137&postcount=115) to except the longer CVDs
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b80/shugunga/CD%20Two/IMG_4538.jpg

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b80/shugunga/CD%20Two/IMG_4537.jpg

[killjoyken]

I finally finnished mocking up the chassis tonight. So far it looks like it's going to work. The Epic beadlocks wouldn't hold the Panthers, so I mounted up a set of Bandlands instead. The track width is a hair over 10.5". Not great, but good enough for now. Skid height is just over 2.5" and the wheelsbase is about 12 3/8".

I'll try to take some better pics tomorrow when there's better light. Messy desk, I know...

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b294/Kenstyle/DSCF3894.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b294/Kenstyle/DSCF3895.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b294/Kenstyle/DSCF3896.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b294/Kenstyle/DSCF3898.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b294/Kenstyle/DSCF3899.jpg

[genki]

Nice, I was thinking of running the SWX also but I wanted to try the panhard front linkage which may be a stretch looking at it!

Great work, be interested to see you thoughts on performance ;)

[sddill]

Awesome "thumbsup" Thats what I have been waiting to see..Put these axles under a real comp chassis and see what it will do :shock: Can't wait to hear how it does ;-)

[Rockpiledriver]

That looks really good.

I remember my first TLT.

[Hurley0706]

Hands down the best looking RF yet! Amazing job!

I can tell you are one hell of a machinist too by the look of those parts.

That looks really good.

I remember my first TLT.

OMFGLMAO!!!!!!!!!!

[Dewmerz]

The parts look great Ken. Good to see the plan came together. Test run later today? "thumbsup"

[killjoyken]

Hands down the best looking RF yet! Amazing job!

I can tell you are one hell of a machinist too by the look of those parts.



OMFGLMAO!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks guys! I designed this rig around what I know works well, like my GC-1 and Dewmerz's SWX. Hopefully it will translate into a comp capable crawler. If I can get a rear dig I'll be able to find out at next month's comp.

I remember my first TLT too. The stock RF chassis reminded me of the the stock TLT chassis. :lol:

I've actually only been machining for about 6 months, but I've got a great master machinist that's teaching me. Too bad I don't have a CNC machine at work, just a really old Bridgeport and Alliant. He started training me on the the lathe last month, but it's gigiantic and it's going to be difficult to make small parts. Sorry, but I won't be making parts for sale. As it is I have to sneak my own parts into my regular work and can't yet afford my own mill. Don't worry, I'm sure the other guys will have stuff available soon.

Dewmerz: I don't know if it will be rady today. I've still got a lot to do like figure out the steering and mount all the electronics. Give me a call later.

[Hurley0706]

I don't hear good things about the Kyosho Disconnect.

In all actuality it is a bad design. The disconnect point happens AFTER all the reduction is done so you have to fight every bit of the torque your rig produces. A more traditional dig would work MUCH better.

[John]

I don't hear good things about the Kyosho Disconnect.

In all actuality it is a bad design. The disconnect point happens AFTER all the reduction is done so you have to fight every bit of the torque your rig produces. A more traditional dig would work MUCH better.

Not sure what you mean. The axle locks into the case and the rear worm gears spin freely. What torque are you fighting? Sorry, maybe I'm misreading your post.

[Hurley0706]

Not sure what you mean. The axle locks into the case and the rear worm gears spin freely. What torque are you fighting? Sorry, maybe I'm misreading your post.

No, the fact that the lock plate locks into the worm gear AFTER all the reduction. Therefore when you are trying to disengage the dig you have to fight all the forces.

I actually heard from people that watched you first hand run your Rock Force at the last comp and that you couldn't get it to disengage without releasing the pressure.

[John]

No, the fact that the lock plate locks into the worm gear AFTER all the reduction. Therefore when you are trying to disengage the dig you have to fight all the forces.

I actually heard from people that watched you first hand run your Rock Force at the last comp and that you couldn't get it to disengage without releasing the pressure.

I posted my results of the dig and the issues I experienced in another thread back on the 26th. There are no issues with releasing the dig clutch plate from the worm gear itself (Drive to free wheel and free wheel back to drive). The clutch goes in and out of the worm gear freely. This is were you would experience "fighting the torque", as you say, but there is no issues there.

The issues I was experiencing was when the clutch plate was releasing from the case plate. This is due to the design of the case lock plate itself and can possibly be fixed with a little modifying/deburring. When the clutch plate disengages from the case lock plate, there is no torque from the worm gears that you fight, since it is not connected at that point in any way to the worm gear. I haven't had a chance to take the axle apart and do some adjusting. I should get the chance tomorrow. The case/lock plate is a thin piece of alluminum. It has some sharp edges and I believe it is digging into the clutch plate stubs, which is making it difficult in some instances for it to release, without bumping the throttle a little. The force that is causing the pressure against the case plate is coming from the drag of the tires during the dig and not the gear reduction of the worm gears.

What I didn't understand from your first post was it sounded as if you were saying the clutch plate wouldn't release from the worm gear, due to the torque and being at the tail end of the gear reduction. This is not the case as the clutch plate moves freely in and out of the worm gear or in other words going from drive to free wheel and free wheel back to drive. The material of the worm gear is different than the material of the case plate, which is why the clutch plate moves freely in and out of the worm gear.

I think it will be more clear once you see the dig unit first hand.

[Hurley0706]

In any case, where the dig is located you fight all of the torque. With no reduction in its path it is not an optimal design. A shaft dig would probably work amazingly well on this rig. I am glad to hear that the engagement from 4x4 is ok.

[John]

In any case, where the dig is located you fight all of the torque. With no reduction in its path it is not an optimal design. A shaft dig would probably work amazingly well on this rig. I am glad to hear that the engagement from 4x4 is ok.

Yes, no problems with engagement in and out of 4x4. I am convinced the issue going from dig to free wheel is due to the lock plate being a thin piece of alluminum. It's like running a piece of metal across a knife blade. The metal will dig into the knife blade and cause it to hang up. I am taking the axle apart now and will make some adjustments and see how it does.

I've got the axles mounted to my super chassis.:) I used the 3 link/panrod set up for the super. I want to try the truck out with just the rear disconnect and no rear steering to see how it performs.

[XPLORx4]

A shaft dig would probably work amazingly well on this rig.

A shaft dig with a worm gear final drive will only be locked or 4WD. It won't have a freewheel mode, since the worm acts like a brake as long as it's meshed with the gear. Is a 3-position dig usually not a big advantage in comps?

[Hurley0706]

A shaft dig with a worm gear final drive will only be locked or 4WD. It won't have a freewheel mode, since the worm acts like a brake as long as it's meshed with the gear. Is a 3-position dig usually not a big advantage in comps?

Yup you are right and I missed that. A down side of the worm gears I guess, I guess I will just throw in a big 340 oz/in servo and yank the thing in and out, worried about that plastic fork.

[killjoyken]

Yup you are right and I missed that. A down side of the worm gears I guess, I guess I will just throw in a big 340 oz/in servo and yank the thing in and out, worried about that plastic fork.

Hmmm, guess we'll just have to make the fork out of aluminum. ;-)

[Jekyll]

Well I don't get it Harley, to me it seems better to have the dig release after the reduction where the axles spins as slow as possible. That way it must be easier to get it to engage/disengage? Higher force when disengaging but easier to line it up for engage again.

[Hurley0706]

Well I don't get it Harley, to me it seems better to have the dig release after the reduction where the axles spins as slow as possible. That way it must be easier to get it to engage/disengage? Higher force when disengaging but easier to line it up for engage again.


Spinning slower is not what you are really looking for. You have to overcome the shear force that is being put on the pieces to disengage the pieces. This is what is noticed on so many other digs (all digs really). The placement of this dig just amplifies it even more.

It is a design that is dictated by the fact that worm gears can not be driven in the opposite direction. No matter what it is just going to cause a much stronger servo to do the work, don't count on being able to use a nice little 225 like the DNA.

[killjoyken]

Finally figured out a way to mount the battery on the axle. While I'm not a big fan of upright servos, it was the only way I could get the battery low enough. In fact, I actually like it more than the battery setup on my GC-1. I still need to make a plate that I can strap the battery to, but the steering works great.

The big test will be this weekend when I find out if any of this really works. :lol:

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b294/Kenstyle/DSCF3901.jpg

[Dewmerz]

3S A123 look at home on the front axle. Once on a plate they should sit at about the same height as the servo mount.

[wingnutcrawler]

if you ran the 2 motors like harley said , couldn't you try the micro switch dig and have front and rear burn? sorry in advance if this has already been mentioned.

[goobs]

i would try running a longer drag arm to the other kuckle so ur angles wouldnt be as steep.

[Dewmerz]

The battery placement would probably get in the way of the link going to the other knuckle.

If it does become a issue it looks like the servo mount can be re-designed to put the servo on a angle leaning against the worm gear housing instead of fully upright. The angle of the servo could follow the 2 3mm screws going through the case at the worm gear on the right. That would give a little less angle on the arm.

[dx-dow]

Been following the thread and takin notes. Cause I'd like to try the worm drive axles. But the price has been holding me back.
So I think I'll just wait for this kit that will be cheaper. Also has front and rear dig. http://www.rccaraction.com/ME2/dirmod.asp?sid=E29CAE68A6D4457BA0FB171BEC7D56D2&nm=Site+Features&type=news&mod=News&mid=9A02E3B96F2A415ABC72CB5F516B4C10&tier=3&nid=D449A9170B9142E0B2C6726748E4111A
Watch out Kyosho:-P

[killjoyken]

I got everything buttoned up and ran it a little in my garage tonight. I'm running the Holmes 35t and FX-R out of my GC-1 for now and with the 60/34 gearing it's got some good wheel speed, barely slower than it was in the GC-1. And happy to report zero torque twist in forward and reverse. There's also a bit more steering that will have to do until I receive my dig from Genki. "thumbsup"

Just have to paint up the body and she'll be ready for testing this weekend. Should be a good test against Dewmerz's SWX.

[killjoyken]

Well, got her up on some rocks today and there's good news and bad news.

Good news first. With my original setup she climbs well. The steering is a lot better, but the front end tends to push a little. I'm thinking it's the tires since they seemed to skip when sidehilling and slide more than the Panthers. At slow speeds they worked ok, but add some wheel speed and they buck like a bronco.

Articulation was good and it seemed to keep the wheels planted in most situations. If a front tire decided to hang in the air on a climb, a quick blip of the throttle would bring it back down. I think some better tires and a dig would make this comp worthy. Except....

The bad news. About halfway into the first pack she started to lose power whenever she got a little bound up. These were areas that my GC-1 with the same electronics would power through. I also burned through the first pack noticeably faster than in my GC-1. Strange. I checked to make sure everything was smooth and nothing was binding. On the second pack it started doing it again. Crawling through a crevase it stopped and a gave it a few full throttle bursts to see if I could punch through. I noticed a little smoke wafting from the motor and pulled the rig out. The FX-R was only showing 2 lights so that was fine, but there was a burnt smell from the motor and it was hot as hell. So that pretty much ended my day with the RF.

Dewmerz and I were trying to figure out what would have caused this. This setup works beautifully in my GC-1, so why not in the RF? The only thing we could come up with is that there's too much reduction in the axles which may put more load on the motor. This is getting into an area of physics that I don't know too much about so I'm hope you guys can help me figure this out.

The more I drive these worm axles the more I like them. It makes climbs and decents effortless. Now that there's a good chassis in there it's so much more capable. With a little more tuning she'll be a joy to drive.

I did get a lttle vid, but need time to convert it. For now, here's some pics.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b294/Kenstyle/DSCF3902.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b294/Kenstyle/DSCF3904.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b294/Kenstyle/DSCF3906.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b294/Kenstyle/DSCF3908.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b294/Kenstyle/DSCF3910.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b294/Kenstyle/DSCF3912.jpg

[killjoyken]

Ooooooo.....nekid!

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b294/Kenstyle/DSCF3917.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b294/Kenstyle/DSCF3918.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b294/Kenstyle/DSCF3919.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b294/Kenstyle/DSCF3920.jpg

And a poser shot.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b294/Kenstyle/DSCF3913.jpg

[dave56bug]

Looks fantastic!

[vonclod]

killer looking rig..i run the swx in my axial and i like it, i,m guessing you shortened the links..hows the articulation?

[killjoyken]

I actually lengthened the rear links, but I'm not using the stock SWX lower link locations. I moved them inboard like my GC-1.

I milled out some stock Axial hexes for the rear to narrow the track width. I used a 5/16" endmill and 3/32" pins that fit through the set screw holes. Narrowed the rear by about 1/2".

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b294/Kenstyle/DSCF3922.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b294/Kenstyle/DSCF3923.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b294/Kenstyle/DSCF3924.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b294/Kenstyle/DSCF3925.jpg

[John]

Nice. I was thinking of doing the same mod, but I was going to leave the stock Kyosho pin length and notch out the wheel. Let us know how the modified axial hexes work. I was a little concerned at first that there wasn't going to be enough material left to hold up. Keep us posted.

[Reflection]

Keep your fingers crossed.:lol: The 12mm hexes I tried shattered on the first run. After boring the center hole out to 8mm,it only leaves 2mm on the flats. Not enough IMO.

[2JSC]

Rig is looking sick!

btw- that is a great stack of DVD's there. I have all of those as well. "thumbsup"


http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b294/Kenstyle/DSCF3894.jpg

[killjoyken]

They held up fine this weekend, but because of gearing problems it wasn't much of a torture test. I just had no torque. Looks like the only way I can run this at the speed I'm used to is to put spur pinion almost back to stock and run a lower turn motor. I love these axles, but the 30:1 gear reduction is killing me. And to add insult to injury, I can't even get the high speed gears! @#$^@ Kyosho!!!! Their marketing dept deserves a good kick in the ass.

[killjoyken]

Rig is looking sick!

btw- that is a great stack of DVD's there. I have all of those as well. "thumbsup"

Thanks. I feel like I'm slowly moving into my garage. Got my workshop, then a computer out here, and now a DVD player. If it wasn't so cold in the winter I'd probably sleep out here!

[vonclod]

They held up fine this weekend, but because of gearing problems it wasn't much of a torture test. I just had no torque. Looks like the only way I can run this at the speed I'm used to is to put spur pinion almost back to stock and run a lower turn motor. I love these axles, but the 30:1 gear reduction is killing me. And to add insult to injury, I can't even get the high speed gears! @#$^@ Kyosho!!!! Their marketing dept deserves a good kick in the ass.
the gearing sucks for sure, i,ve gone through a few combo,s..started with a 27t pro stock mtr..not even close, then a 10t brushed @ zero timeing, this actually worked pretty good but the tekin esc didnt like it and my 2s lipo was even getting quite warm, right now i have a 3500kv traxxas bl mtr in there with a mamba and bec on 3s..still not there, close..i may just try a 5700 mtr or go back to the 10t brushed...all this till the high speed gears are available:-( also battery draw sucks:roll:

[Hurley0706]

Ken you are sure turning a cow's ear into a silk purse "thumbsup"

Interested in seeing how those hexes hold up as well.

[killjoyken]

I made some rear lockouts yesterday. Not the prettiest things, but they're solid and won't budge so they fit the RF's beefy theme. The coolest part is that I can use my modded Axial hexes with Eritex's new wheels to run narrower in the rear since I don't have the stock knuckle arm to deal with.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b294/Kenstyle/1216081512-01.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b294/Kenstyle/1216081511-00.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b294/Kenstyle/1216081513-00.jpg

Hopefully the vendors will be releasing their own hop-ups soon. "thumbsup"

[Dewmerz]

The extra milling rounding them out looks good. Just be prepared to make another set when I can finally order axles. "thumbsup"

[goobs]

The extra milling rounding them out looks good. Just be prepared to make another set when I can finally order axles. "thumbsup"

can i order some now! jk
but i sure could use some lock outs.

[BILLYGOAT]

i really like the direction this rig is going .outstanding r&d. kyosho should put you on the payroll.

[killjoyken]

i really like the direction this rig is going .outstanding r&d. kyosho should put you on the payroll.

Thanks John. Kyosho payroll? That would be nice. From what David and Steve from Kyosho have told me, the guy who designed this rig does read the info here so I hope he's getting some good feedback. I have a feeling the Japanese have a slightly different approach to crawling than we do here in the states. That would explain the gearing and width/wheelbase differences that we complain about. Either way, it didn't really take all that much to switch everything over to our standards.

After I install the high speed gears and dig there's not much else that I think needs to be done, other than CVDs to gain more steering.

[BILLYGOAT]

hows the build going . its been a while .any updates?

[killjoyken]

There hasn't been much to report lately. Mostly doing fine tuning and learning to drive this rig. I wanted to drive it at the last comp but dig problems forced me to run my Axial. Big mistake. The traction at the comp was unbelievable. I broke 2 CVD pins and a rear drveshaft. I had my GC-1 setup for slick rock and my rig was just all over the place. I was so pissed I damned mear threw it in the ocean. I didn't even finnish the last course because I was tired of fixing it.

Good news is that after I calmed down I broke out the RF and ran the last course. (thanks to rckjeep for unoffically judging me) Ended up with a -1 out of a possible -5. Yeah, it was the easiest course, but it did well. I passed the wheel to rckjeep and let him bash on it for a while. In the hands of a good driver it did well. Most of the guys watching seemed to like it. He beat the piss out of it, jumped it, you name it, and it just begged for more abuse. The only damage was a bent dig arm and a toasty motor. My Axial has been retired so I'll be running the RF at the next comp.

Now if I could only get this dig to work better I'd be set. I just put in a 5995tg and it seems a little better. I tried a Tekin RS Pro in brushed mode but found out there's no instant reverse so that killed last week's test. Right no I've got a FX-R and Holmes 35t but I liked the wheelspeed of the 30t so I'll probably switch back.

Since my old lockouts had too much slop I made some new ones. I took out the kingpin bushings and tapped for a 6mm screw. Beefy.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b294/Kenstyle/DSCF3957.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b294/Kenstyle/DSCF3958.jpg

And here's a set I made for Dewmerz.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b294/Kenstyle/DSCF3961.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b294/Kenstyle/DSCF3960.jpg

I'm also running Savage axle stubs and nuts so I can bolt on my DH comps. "thumbsup" The pin hole is closer to the bearing so I had to mod the hexes again.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b294/Kenstyle/DSCF3956.jpg

I've been really busy at work so I haven't had time to start on the Savage CVDs but that's next on the list. My front dogbones are starting to get chewed up.

[killjoyken]

Almost forgot. I found a use for the Kyosho chassis. It's holding my new berg axles. :lol:

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b294/Kenstyle/DSCF3964.jpg

[BILLYGOAT]

nice update .dew is luucky!!! now that i have high speed gears im in great shape . waiting till i have the parts to 4 link the front and switch out chassis. thanks for the update glad things are going in the right direction

[Hurley0706]

You sure are doing a nice job with this one Ken. Brandon said he saw it at the last comp. Mine is actually on it's way (soon) to Brandon so he can mess with it.

We have some new wheels coming for it too, they will be available to everyone soon.

[BILLYGOAT]

You sure are doing a nice job with this one Ken. Brandon said he saw it at the last comp. Mine is actually on it's way (soon) to Brandon so he can mess with it.

We have some new wheels coming for it too, they will be available to everyone soon.
good to hear there is more support comming. thanks harley

[Dewmerz]

The lockouts are beefy but fit great. I have no problems taking the old revisions from Ken as he works things out and we brainstorm new ideas. Hopefully Monday I'll have time to take all of these parts and put them to use with the last ones needed completed.

[gimpygolden]

Finally figured out a way to mount the battery on the axle. While I'm not a big fan of upright servos, it was the only way I could get the battery low enough. In fact, I actually like it more than the battery setup on my GC-1. I still need to make a plate that I can strap the battery to, but the steering works great.

The big test will be this weekend when I find out if any of this really works. :lol:

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b294/Kenstyle/DSCF3901.jpg

Are these the 1100Mah A123's? Whats the runtime like?

[gimpygolden]

Thats one badass rig by the way

[saydee1800]

Any thing new on your rock force. This thing by far is the best rock force I have seen out here. To use this SWX Chassis did you have to make your links? If not what size did you use?

[one2crawl]

the HKS stickers are the best stickers ive seen on this site yet. HKS one of the top car tunners in japan and all round @$$ kicker of you lol. this is one of the best looking rock force's Ive seen so far. nice work very well thought out build.

Its not what you buy, its how you build it."thumbsup"

[afterdot]

i really love the mod on the front axle and im going to do the same thing to my rig. brilliant build."thumbsup"