Front end can't stay down!!!!

[Mule]

I have two rigs that climb really well now. Neither has weight in the rear.

One has DIG, 3oz per side w/ AL rims - no vents, Rockhammer hybrid reaches on all 4 and 1/2" of squat on the front only w/ stock AX shocks and LiPo on front axle. Stiffer spring in rear left and 80 wt oil in it as well. It needs DIG to climb vert/near vert stuff most of the time.

The other one is a tuber w/ stock Axial rims w/ vents, 6oz wt per side in front. Claws with stock star cut, rounded off foam, 3.5" AL shocks. and saddle LiPo pack on axle. NO DIG, it climbs like a spyder withought it! It's also a 60/40 setup.

In both cases, I had tried weight in the back and it made me flip.

[Reflection]

Originally Posted by mtnyote

First step is to remove any weight you have in the rear tires. then do some research on anti squat. Then go buy an r2d. tnen $hit can the droop setup.

Why remove the weight in the rear?

The Axial tranny is stronger with better gear ratio's available. The R2's are geared way to low and the gears strip easy. Nothing is totally break proof,but the AX tranny is IMO the better tranny.

Droop can work equally as well as a sprung set up,sometimes better than a sprung set up. It does take more time to dial it in though

[bigflex]

Originally Posted by mtnyote

First step is to remove any weight you have in the rear tires. then do some research on anti squat. Then go buy an r2d. tnen $hit can the droop setup.

No yes and no.
He doesn't need less weight out back he just needs alot more up front. I run full droop and I have 13.5oz. of total weight for each front rim and tire plus I have 6oz of stick ons on the front axle.

Did would be a good thing.

Theres nothing wrong with droop. I run droop and if tuned properly it works awsome. It just takes time to get it dialed.

I wouls say the first thing you need to do is add enough weight to get each front rim and tire up to arrond 12-14 oz. each.

[smm_cbf]

Originally Posted by 666

Plain and Simple. You need DIG.

the perfect answer, digs kickass

[rn38]

Originally Posted by Kamikaze

Nope, BERG is!!!!

X2

Get another chassis with more adjustments. I had to tweek the suspension alot just to get it to crawl decent. If you notice most of the people running BJ's have alot of weight in the front and I didn't really like that. But I'm sure if you put alot of work into tuning the suspension more you could get it to work better or even great.

Good Luck!!

[Stormin2u]

More weight in your front wheels at least 4 more ounces and stiffer foam in the rear than in the front will lower your rear traction. Stiffer springs in the rear than the front will help it stand up these are easy things to do.

A dig with a 3 position switch so you could free wheel the rear axle is extremely handy.

A Berg? I'd wait awhile just to see what happens with MOA options in the future. RC4WD axles will be looking as good as the Bergs after some minor tweaks maybe better and I'm sure that they won't be the last offerings we will be seeing.

The workhorse of club competition is still the shaftie.

[Culetto]

Originally Posted by 666

Plain and Simple. You need DIG.

Originally Posted by dirtydirtysouf

best answer to the question

Originally Posted by Kamikaze

Nope, BERG is!!!!

Nope, its all in tires and setup

[JeepinDoug]

Though dig is an awesome upgrade, in this case it's just a bandaid for Dima's issues, (just like the yahoos who think a steering dampner cures death-wobble).
Raptorman had the answer, suspension geometry answers all the questions. The rear should either have zero squat/anti-squat or just a tad of squat. The front should have positive squat. I think Dima's rig has springs for ride height so positive squat will still work for him.
You can have the most F'd-up rig as far as weight distribution and suspension valving, but if you have it tweaked correctly it could be very capable.

[mtnyote]

Originally Posted by raptorman57

Why remove the weight in the rear?

The Axial tranny is stronger with better gear ratio's available. The R2's are geared way to low and the gears strip easy.

any weight behind the motor is dead weight, holding you down or flipping you back.

r2d with 15 tooth pinion and a 3 cell with a 35-55 turn motor is the gearing "sweet spot"

Ive never stripped my tranny (use loctite!)

Originally Posted by bigflex

He doesn't need less weight out back he just needs alot more up front. I have 13.5oz. of total weight for each front rim and tire plus I have 6oz of stick ons on the front axle.

I would say the first thing you need to do is add enough weight to get each front rim and tire up to arrond 12-14 oz. each.

i was running 13oz front / 6 oz rear for a while and thought it was great. i did some testing on the same obstacles and 7.5 front / 0 oz rear out performed every time. i got back a TON of power too!

[Reflection]

Originally Posted by mtnyote

any weight behind the motor is dead weight, holding you down or flipping you back.

Holding you down is correct,and it's a good thing. Weight in the rear allows you to carry the front tires easier over holes and keeps the ass end down on steep descents. Flipping backwards,in most cases,has nothing to do with weight in the rear tires. It's mostly due to poor link geomoetery and having your squat/antisquat numbers off.....OR,getting the rear tires under a ledge or undercut that stops foward progress.

Originally Posted by mtnyote

r2d with 15 tooth pinion and a 3 cell with a 35-55 turn motor is the gearing "sweet spot"

BIG difference between a 35t and 55t. That would be a tad bit slow for me personally. Everyones idea of the "sweet spot" is different.

Originally Posted by mtnyote

Ive never stripped my tranny (use loctite!)

Good deal Where do you add loctite that makes your gears stronger? Some guys like the R2 trannies and they work good for them,thats cool. 3 gear sets and 2 main shafts within 3 comps,I seen it wasn't for me. With the Axial tranny,I've beat on it all season and the factory gears are still like new....did burn up 3 or 4 spur gears though.

[Flatty]

I think I am going to try and play with the link geometry this weekend and see if that makes any difference. I will also add some more foam to the rears and see if taht makes any difference. Maybe add some tougher springs to the rear and see what tht does.

Dima

[mtnyote]

Originally Posted by raptorman57

Holding you down is correct,and it's a good thing. Weight in the rear keeps the ass end down on steep descents
Flipping backwards,in most cases,has nothing to do with weight in the rear tires. .

"Holding you down" was in reference to flattys problem climbing near vert. ledges. in that case, its a bad thing... having nothing (i.e. electronics, lead weights) in the rear, actually helps with descent because there is minimal weight for inertia(sp?) transfer which causes the endo situation.

Originally Posted by raptorman57

BIG difference between a 35t and 55t. That would be a tad bit slow for me personally. .

if you think *11.1 - r2d w/15t pinion- 35turn * is a SLOW setup I wanna come hang out and do some crawling with you . what are you running? (seriously, im curious)

Originally Posted by raptorman57

Where do you add loctite that makes your gears stronger? 3 gear sets within 3 comps,I seen it wasn't for me

you use loctite when bolting in your motor and setting your pinion mesh/backlash, then your motor wont come loose and strip the gears


i know youve been doing this a Lot longer than i have, but i also know what flatty is talking about and i think he could benefit from less rear weigh. i say that because we live in the same area and run the same obstacles. if he comes out tomorrow to G tech, he can try my wheel tire setup and see if that helps. 4oz front weight is WAAAAAAAAY too light IMO

[rckjeep]

Originally Posted by mtnyote

First step is to remove any weight you have in the rear tires. then do some research on anti squat. Then go buy an r2d. tnen $hit can the droop setup.

I agree with the droop setup, never liked full droop. Try the 3Racing Mini LST shocks. I've been using them with great success. Yes I know they are really short, articulation is over-rated.

But I have definitely had issue with no weight in the rear. I usually add 2-4 oz. in the back just enough to keep it planted descending. When climbing a wall(vertical wall in the house for example) How close do the rear wheels get to it before the front end goes ass over tea kettle? I can get the rear about 1.5" away before she flops. Of course actual terrain changes things but it's like an RTI ramp, good for standardizing.

[5150bronco]

Originally Posted by raptorman57

Why remove the weight in the rear?

The Axial tranny is stronger with better gear ratio's available. The R2's are geared way to low and the gears strip easy. Nothing is totally break proof,but the AX tranny is IMO the better tranny.

Droop can work equally as well as a sprung set up,sometimes better than a sprung set up. It does take more time to dial it in though

thanks for the input. so, recap, about 6-8 onces per wheel up front? Any in rear?
and then what is your droop setup...., oil in shocks, springs, what did you do?

thanks.

[5150bronco]

Originally Posted by raptorman57

That would be a VERY good upgrade that would help this issue and more.

Since you are running droop....add a little squat to the rear suspension. This helps keep the rear end planted and the shocks compressed on climbs. You don't need a 4 link to add squat. A 3 link can be adjusted just like a 4 link.

On a sprung set up,a touch of anti squat in the rear is better

Always run a touch of squat up front,sprung or droop. That'll help put a little more weight pushing down on the front when the throttle is applied,helping traction or forward bite.

Can you explain how to make these adjustments with 3 link set up. I just got a artr.

Thanks again!

[Reflection]

Originally Posted by mtnyote

having nothing (i.e. electronics, lead weights) in the rear, actually helps with descent because there is minimal weight for inertia(sp?) transfer which causes the endo situation.

I guess you can look at it 2 ways. I disagree,but I can see your point of view. If it works for ya....cool.

Having a heavier axle,requires more inertia to lift on a descent causing an endo.

Originally Posted by mtnyote

if you think *11.1 - r2d w/15t pinion- 35turn * is a SLOW setup I wanna come hang out and do some crawling with you . what are you running? (seriously, im curious)

Never did I say your set up was a turtle, That would be a decent set up,but a TAD slow for my personal taste. There is a good deal of a difference between a 35t and a 55t though.

Depends. Either a 35t geared 18/81 on a 3 cell....or a 5t cobalt geared 14/87 on a 3 cell. Wheel speed makes front dig work better. Wheel speed cleans tires,we have lots of slick'em around here at times and I like my tires clean. The 35t at that gearing is a little faster than a 35t behind an R2 tranny. When running the 5t in my rig,it'll drift on the concrete in the shop. I also run a 10t puller in my super at 18/81 on a 3 cell. I like to take it off sweet jumps.

Originally Posted by mtnyote

you use loctite when bolting in your motor and setting your pinion mesh/backlash, then your motor wont come loose and strip the gears

I see where your using it,and thats good. Thats not where I had my stripped gears though. I always rounded off the gears on the main shaft.

Originally Posted by 5150bronco

thanks for the input. so, recap, about 6-8 onces per wheel up front? Any in rear?
and then what is your droop setup...., oil in shocks, springs, what did you do?

thanks.

I like weight at each corner,some people prefer not to run weight in the rear. Do some testing and see what works for you. 6-8 oz. is a good starting point.

I've tried SEVERAL different droop set ups. They all vary. The valving in your shocks,angle the shocks are mounted on and the weight of the car ALL play into what will work. There's absolutely no way for me to tell you what will work in your car. Droop is trial an error till you find the sweet spot. Oil,I've run anything from 30 weight,all the way up to 1000 weight diff oil.

Originally Posted by 5150bronco

Can you explain how to make these adjustments with 3 link set up. I just got a artr.

Thanks again!

This might help......


Adjusting the vertical separation at the chassis is the way I adjust my squat/anti squat. That can be done with a 3 link. I could type on this subject until my fingers bleed. There's some great threads already scattered about on RCC,look in general first.

[mtnyote]

Originally Posted by raptorman57

Having a heavier axle,requires more inertia to lift on a descent causing an endo.

the never ending trade-offs we face


Youre a cool cat raptorman

[5150bronco]

wow, thanks raptor, really appreciate it. Hard to believe all that is involved in this type of stuff. I am good with visual examples so thanks for the diagram.

[K Riccardi]

The chart is cool. I think it will help many, Myself included.

[sierrajim]

OK, so with my basically stock AX10 i decided to try out modding bit by bit.

Cut the front foams down by about 15mm in diameter and installed 145-150 grams of foam tonight. Made a HUGE difference.

Tomorrow night will try a little weight 30-40 grams in the rear as downhill it becomes unstable with no weight in the back.

Next step, fit the lipo on the diff as opposed to the old skool lead battery on the frame.

Then softer coils with heavier shock oil folowed by 4 link. Will post up bit by bit.