need some steering help

[16hp]

Can i get more ackerman angle by just lengthening the drag link to create toe out?

thanks

[Duuuuuuuude]

Kinda, but not really.

Ackerman is derived from the position of the mounting point of the tie rod in relation to the pivot point of the knuckle.

Adding toe out will kind of have the same effect, though it won't be true Ackerman.

It works though, I've done it.

[WAM]

If ackerman is a good thing to have, why do so many people recommend the VP zero ack knuckles?

[Duuuuuuuude]

Originally Posted by WAM

If ackerman is a good thing to have, why do so many people recommend the VP zero ack knuckles?

Ackerman helps you steer by turning the front wheels at different angles. The inside tires gets more angle, the outside less. Problem with that is the inside tires will dig into the shocks/links quicker, so it is a tradeoff.

Zero ackerman keeps the wheels turning at the same angle which will decrease overall steering but helps to keep the tires out of the shocks.

[16hp]

"The dude abides!"

The pivot point of the knuckle would be the "king pin" right? And the "mounting point" of the tie rod is on the steering arm of the knuckle?

i still am using stock knuckles and what i think are stock length steering links, but it looks like i have a "less ackerman" thing going on.

Is there true ackerman built into a stock ax-10 front axle? (inside wheel turning more) How do you tune yours?

thanks

[16hp]

Originally Posted by WAM

If ackerman is a good thing to have, why do so many people recommend the VP zero ack knuckles?

From what i understand along with what Dude said is that "zero" is having a true ackerman angle which is desireable. You would want your inside wheel to have a smaller radius.

Man, i hate typing the word ackerman.

[Duuuuuuuude]

Originally Posted by 16hp

"The dude abides!"

The pivot point of the knuckle would be the "king pin" right? And the "mounting point" of the tie rod is on the steering arm of the knuckle?

i still am using stock knuckles and what i think are stock length steering links, but it looks like i have a "less ackerman" thing going on.

Is there true ackerman built into a stock ax-10 front axle? (inside wheel turning more) How do you tune yours?

thanks

In some rigs its a king pin. We don't have those, we have two bolts, but yeah, its where the knuckle pivots. The mounting point is the steering arm.

I believe stock knuckles have ackerman built into them. Whether or not they are "true", I have no idea.

I run VP's zero ackerman high steer knuckles on my rig. The arms are a straight shot out from the pivot point. Looking at your stock knuckles you will see that the arm is set at an angle, that is where the ackerman comes from.

[Duuuuuuuude]

Here...

http://www.rc-truckncar-tuning.com/ackerman.html

[16hp]

Originally Posted by Duuuuuuuude

In some rigs its a king pin. We don't have those, we have two bolts, but yeah, its where the knuckle pivots. The mounting point is the steering arm.

I believe stock knuckles have ackerman built into them. Whether or not they are "true", I have no idea.

I run VP's zero ackerman high steer knuckles on my rig. The arms are a straight shot out from the pivot point. Looking at your stock knuckles you will see that the arm is set at an angle, that is where the ackerman comes from.

So i probably need to just fine tune my steering links to get my ackerman back?

[92LILREDYJ]

It looks good, you might could use a little more toeout, if your not already into the shock. What axle shafts are you running? Stock dogbones, CVD's? I think thats where your limits are.

[Duuuuuuuude]

For a stock setup, that isn't horrible. I would reset things so that the front wheels are either parallel or slightly toed out. You might also try them slightly toed in, sometimes that works too.

When you get real serious about maximizing your steering, you'll need different or adjustable offset wheels to widen the track width. You'll gain some much needed shock/tire clearance.

[WAM]

Originally Posted by 16hp

Is there true ackerman built into a stock ax-10 front axle? (inside wheel turning more)

I don't know about "true" ackerman -- I guess you mean other than static tow out. To assess your ackerman imagine a straight line running through both of your steering arm pivot axes. IE, sight down the steering arms. If the two lines cross each other at the center of the rear axle (tires aimed straight ahead), that would be 100% ackerman. To maintain 100% ackerman, all wheels have to pivot about a single point when turning. Gets complicated.

Sketches here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ackerma...ering_geometry

Note the second sketch is showing rear-steer. It's very difficult to get 100% ackermann with front-steer. The steering arms need to be where the tire sidewall is. Short answer, my stock-steering AX10 does not have ackermann correction. It toes in with turning. Should toe out. So I use clearly visible static toe-out to compensate.

[16hp]

Originally Posted by 92LILREDYJ

It looks good, you might could use a little more toeout, if your not already into the shock. What axle shafts are you running? Stock dogbones, CVD's? I think thats where your limits are.

Yeah, stock dogbones.

Originally Posted by Duuuuuuuude

For a stock setup, that isn't horrible. I would reset things so that the front wheels are either parallel or slightly toed out. You might also try them slightly toed in, sometimes that works too.

When you get real serious about maximizing your steering, you'll need different or adjustable offset wheels to widen the track width. You'll gain some much needed shock/tire clearance.

Thanks. i should have narrowed some 3.2 half offset RPM revolvers instead of these Axial retro's. The 17mm adapters i'm using gave me a little more track width, but it's still not enough. Got any wraith axles your not using?

Originally Posted by WAM

I don't know about "true" ackerman -- I guess you mean other than static tow out. To assess your ackerman imagine a straight line running through both of your steering arm pivot axes. IE, sight down the steering arms. If the two lines cross each other at the center of the rear axle (tires aimed straight ahead), that would be 100% ackerman. To maintain 100% ackerman, all wheels have to pivot about a single point when turning. Gets complicated.

Sketches here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ackerma...ering_geometry

Note the second sketch is showing rear-steer. It's very difficult to get 100% ackermann with front-steer. The steering arms need to be where the tire sidewall is. Short answer, my stock-steering AX10 does not have ackermann correction. It toes in with turning. Should toe out. So I use clearly visible static toe-out to compensate.

It looks like mine toes IN also. i think i'll make some longer steer links to achieve "CVSTO".

[Manning]

Stock steering knuckles have reverse ackerman when the tie rod is in front of the axle. A BTA setup will have proper ackerman with the stock knuckles.

Running a gob of toe out works just fine with stock knuckles, but it looks funny. My Honcho has 1/4" to 3/8" toe out. Looks goofy, turns great.

[WAM]

Originally Posted by Manning

Stock steering knuckles have reverse ackerman when the tie rod is in front of the axle. A BTA setup will have proper ackerman with the stock knuckles.

Running a gob of toe out works just fine with stock knuckles, but it looks funny. My Honcho has 1/4" to 3/8" toe out. Looks goofy, turns great.

I've never been sure how important it is anyway since we run full locked and a tire has to slip regardless. Just one of many things I'm unsure of.

I've only ever run a drab of toe-out. I'll have to try a gob and see how that works out.

[505tj]

Hey, duuude thanks for explaining this so good and putting that link! I'm having problems with my tires hitting my shocks too.

[505tj]

will these work? http://www.rcplanet.com/Axial_Zero_A...p/axi30778.htm

I just bought new aluminum steering knuckles so I don't want to buy a complete new set with zero ackerman.

[Duuuuuuuude]

Those should give you 0 ackerman, but they won't fix the issue with your shocks being in the way. Eventually you're going to want more steering and to make room for that you're going to have to figure out how to tip your shocks further inboard, stand them up straighter, or get an entirely new chassis.

[505tj]

More steering was going to be my next upgrade. I just bought this chassis' and it cost me a pretty penny, I guess I need to look into all my options with modifying what I got.

[RustenPaines]

Originally Posted by 505tj

More steering was going to be my next upgrade. I just bought this chassis' and it cost me a pretty penny, I guess I need to look into all my options with modifying what I got.

If you have just a stock ax axle your rig will be narrower then an XR. Try upgrading to a "chris the battery guys" narrowed Wrath housing, Highland crawler berg universals and Vp chubs/steering blocks. You can you use your stock gears. This will make your front end wider to clear your shocks and add more steering. Every addition (your chassis) will create a new issue. That's part of the fun. Good luck.