Petition/poll ~ Keep bodiless rigs in Sportsman!!!!

[rock hard]

Originally Posted by EvilTwin v2

Eddie, Sorry to hear about your loss. I am glad, though, to see that you're alright and posting.

As for some of the other comments on novice classes, spec classes, etc., here's the deal... This is a class that's being regulated for National Competition. This is not a strictly novice class. Clubs need to figure out how they can best handle the pro vs novice situation, and that should be left to the individual club/event organizers.

A couple years ago, we had the problem in which the comps were split into 2 groups, the guys who were serious and the others who weren't or were new to the comp scene, so we split into 2 2.2 groups.

We now run 2.2 Pro & 2.2 Am. They basically run on the same course, but with several alternate gates. Occaisionally, the "Pro" gates are also considered bonus gates for the 2.2 Am guys. The 2.2 Am class has 2 additional minutes to finish the course, along with a 20 point carry rule. We calculate seperate series points, with seperate trophies for the class. The 2.2 Pro guys are the only ones competing for a nationals qualifying bid.

As for the Sportsman class, at least locally, if it weren't for the pro drivers, there wouldn't be enough of a class to warrant setting up the courses. Instead of letting the new guys think they can't compete, we typically let them run with the better drivers so that they can see what's possible. Then we give them driving tips throughout their run and occaisionally setup tips (but not so much as to overwhelm them).

Only by welcoming and encouraging new drivers are we going to retain them. Banning a particular type of rig is not a factor in that.

good points,a club really should do what serves them best.
In our club we have a novice class,its the 1st 5 gates of the pro courses,and 5 min.,to run.They can run shifty,or moa in our novice class also...but no dig is allowed,it can be intalled,and functional,but if they use it its a dq.

[JeremyH]

Originally Posted by Nova's Ark

Then my wife gets back and three days late our boxer of 11 years passed away. The last three weeks have been busy and difficult to say the least.

Damn dude....that really sucks.

[Duuuuuuuude]

Originally Posted by krawlfreak

That's gay....
I, like ricky, voted for body only to help make the appearance to the outside enthusiasts more appealing. as everyone knows I prefer bodiless but it was asked to set aside our own opinions.

Was it the right vote....

Not sure about it now, I do think this sheds some new light on the situation. I don't think a lynch mob mentality is the way to go, but enough voices can invoke changes, and I think seeing the interest in this thread will or should cause the rules committee to re-evaluate the decision.

I've gotten more interested comments from people unfamiliar with the sport on my bodiless chassis in the short time I've had it than in the few years that I ran a body. I think most other people would say the same...that is not a strong argument IMO.

Nobody has a lynch mob mentality. I'm not attacking any one person, or even asking for the names of those who voted for the ban. All I'm looking for is support from those who will give it and sound reasoning from committee members for voting the way they did. I think its pretty obvious now that the committee did not vote in the best interest of the sport...

[EvilTwin v2]

Originally Posted by rock hard

good points,a club really should do what serves them best.
In our club we have a novice class,its the 1st 5 gates of the pro courses,and 5 min.,to run.They can run shifty,or moa in our novice class also...but no dig is allowed,it can be intalled,and functional,but if they use it its a dq.

If the no dig works for you, great. We found that when new guys would come out to the events, dig was one of the first things they wanted, because it was cool. So we decided to run the Pro/Am with all the same vehicle specs. We also allow any Shafty run in Pro/Am to also run in Sportsman, but if they use dig, they have to take a repair as the vehicle is no longer in spec for the class. This allows the new guys to get double the run time with their truck, but also allows the guy who doesn't have the budget for multiple rigs to run their shafty more.

It's all about people having fun. You allow people to have fun, and they'll keep coming back.

[EvilTwin v2]

Originally Posted by Duuuuuuuude

I think its pretty obvious now that the committee did not vote in the best interest of the sport...

I'm on the committee and I don't figure there's any doubt how I voted.

I do believe that the members who voted to ban were voting in what they thought was the best interest in the sport. However, I don't feel that they were concerned with representing the people currently in the sport.

A couple members are hoping that by forcing bodies that they can attract the interest of publications and racers who's entire MO is to hide what they do under a body, in order to keep a competitive advantage. The very reason that I have stuck with this hobby while only briefling dabbling in other forms of competitive RC is the people and the willingness by even the best of the best to help.

There are very few secrets here. People proudly show what new things they come up with. They display them on bodiless chassis or gladly remove their lid for other's to see, where we can easily see the new knuckle weights, wheel systems, axle tubes, chassis designs, etc. Then, what you can't see can be pretty easily found in build threads or on vendors' threads. People here have an attitude of "We help each other to be better, and then it means something more when I win."

At my first national qualifier, Gatekeeper spotted for me in 1.9. I was a nobody and he jumped in and started giving line suggestions. I had a blast. Go run 1/8 scale buggy or electric stadium truck and see how many people do that. Hell, go try to take a peak around one of their pits and see how quickly people get pissed off.

Are these really the people we're trying to emulate??? Is this what we want our hobby to become?

[rock hard]

Originally Posted by EvilTwin v2

If the no dig works for you, great. We found that when new guys would come out to the events, dig was one of the first things they wanted, because it was cool. So we decided to run the Pro/Am with all the same vehicle specs. We also allow any Shafty run in Pro/Am to also run in Sportsman, but if they use dig, they have to take a repair as the vehicle is no longer in spec for the class. This allows the new guys to get double the run time with their truck, but also allows the guy who doesn't have the budget for multiple rigs to run their shafty more.

It's all about people having fun. You allow people to have fun, and they'll keep coming back.

yep,dig is fun,but we have always had it if you use dig,you run pro.
there has never been a precident to separate drivers by talent....this discussion may give club leaders paying attention something to consider they hadn't previously thought was appropriate.

in our club,until just a few months ago,you was not going to run pro and get anywhere near the top as a newb....nor do I think you necessarily should.
Its one of those things,do you coddle to the guys who are lower tiered,or make them get it in gear to advance their skills.

My 1st season I never finished a course that I recall,our courses was brutal hard at times.I wasn't intimidated,I saw other guys doing it,its all a matter of
wheel time and the trucks limitations and I knew that,being able to see a line,and then drive it is the most important thing we al know it.

I myself don't think anything should be done nationally to accommodate new drivers..the rules are really for national events,and state clubs fighting for a national spot,where the best are the ones spending the time and money to compete/travel to the event.How many 1st time,or 1st week or 1st month,or box stock drivers go to nats?

keep the rules as they have been,force drivers to "advance"their skill level if they want to me competitive......besides.no matter what you do,or how you do it,there will still be those consistently at the bottom of the pack.

[Duuuuuuuude]

Originally Posted by EvilTwin v2

A couple members are hoping that by forcing bodies that they can attract the interest of publications and racers who's entire MO is to hide what they do under a body, in order to keep a competitive advantage. The very reason that I have stuck with this hobby while only briefling dabbling in other forms of competitive RC is the people and the willingness by even the best of the best to help.

So far this is the best explanation we've gotten:

Originally Posted by jason

Bodied cars attract way more people to the hobby than bodiless.

[krawlfreak]

Originally Posted by Duuuuuuuude

I'm not attacking any one person, or even asking for the names of those who voted for the ban. All I'm looking for is support from those who will give it and sound reasoning from committee members for voting the way they did. I think its pretty obvious now that the committee did not vote in the best interest of the sport...

I just gave you the answer why.

You are just not hearing anything other than your own thoughts.

I also said I think the rules committee should re assess the situation.

That's your answer and some...and the solution.

[krawlfreak]

Originally Posted by EvilTwin v2

I'm on the committee and I don't figure there's any doubt how I voted.

I do believe that the members who voted to ban were voting in what they thought was the best interest in the sport. However, I don't feel that they were concerned with representing the people currently in the sport.

A couple members are hoping that by forcing bodies that they can attract the interest of publications and racers who's entire MO is to hide what they do under a body, in order to keep a competitive advantage. The very reason that I have stuck with this hobby while only briefling dabbling in other forms of competitive RC is the people aqnd the willingness by even the best of the best to help.

There are very few secrets here. People proudly show what new things they come up with. They display them on bodiless chassis or gladly remove their lid for other's to see, where we can easily see the new knuckle weights, wheel systems, axle tubes, chassis designs, etc. Then, what you can't see can be pretty easily found in build threads or on vendors' threads. People here have an attitude of "We help each other to be better, and then it means something more when I win."

At my first national qualifier, Gatekeeper spotted for me in 1.9. I was a nobody and he jumped in and started giving line suggestions. I had a blast. Go run 1/8 scale buggy or electric stadium truck and see how many people do that. Hell, go try to take a peak around one of their pits and see how quickly people get pissed off.

Are these really the people we're trying to emulate??? Is this what we want our hobby to become?

I really don't agree with this...

I of all have offered more info than Most on every facet of the sport all the way.down to giving and posting exact national winning setups.

[Duuuuuuuude]

Originally Posted by krawlfreak

I just gave you the answer why.

You are just not hearing anything other than your own thoughts.

I also said I think the rules committee should re assess the situation.

That's your answer and some...and the solution.

I hear you, but I cannot believe you guys would support it. The reasoning is pretty frail IMO. You don't add rules and penalize existing drivers to promote the sport.

Out of 17 committee members only three or four have spoken up. I've seen many more in the thread but they say nothing either way.

[C*H*U*D]

I also don't think this should be a lynch mob type of discussion. The Rules Committee does a very thankless job, and I applaud their efforts to make things better. I don't care who voted, how they cast their vote or why.

I just hope that there was some serious thought as to how this would help, and it's not just an experiment or a "Hey, what if..." kind of decision. Even if I didn't make a chassis that is used in Sportsman, I would see this as a bad direction for Sporty to go.

Since Committee members are posting here, then that means the rule definitely has passed. Does this take effect for next year, or is it something that will be implemented immediately? If there is enough interest, can this be changed? If so, how much interest is needed for it to be looked at again?

[krawlfreak]

Originally Posted by Duuuuuuuude

I hear you, but I cannot believe you guys would support it. The reasoning is pretty frail IMO. You don't add rules and penalize existing drivers to promote the sport.

Out of 17 committee members only three or four have spoken up. I've seen many more in the thread but they say nothing either way.

I guess you have not noticed the dwindling #s at national events. That is what this is really about, hence the reasoning. If the national level events fail where does that leave the clubs that are only sanctioned to get a nationals bid.

You don't have to understand it...or except it, but that is the reasoning. Like I said before maybe it was flawed.

The fact is growing the sport may take sacrifice from some. I am willing are you?

[rock hard]

Originally Posted by EvilTwin v2

I'm on the committee and I don't figure there's any doubt how I voted.

I do believe that the members who voted to ban were voting in what they thought was the best interest in the sport. However, I don't feel that they were concerned with representing the people currently in the sport.

I can easily believe that the members who voted,did so with their reasons.I must agree with you,they may have done what they thought was best for the
class.Not what is best for those who have already revived the class.

The most common error is human error,and we are all human.
I have no doubt the rules comity will see that it could be they could have better served the class by not alienating a large portion of drivers already in that class.....

IMO the bodiless craze is the main reason shafty class has rebounded

[EvilTwin v2]

Originally Posted by rock hard

yep,dig is fun,but we have always had it if you use dig,you run pro.
there has never been a precident to separate drivers by talent....this discussion may give club leaders paying attention something to consider they hadn't previously thought was appropriate.

We let people choose where they want to run, but if in doubt, typically encourage them to run Am. If they're having fun, they're going to keep coming back. We try to gear the Am courses to be fun, but finishable.

Originally Posted by rock hard

in our club,until just a few months ago,you was not going to run pro and get anywhere near the top as a newb....nor do I think you necessarily should.
Its one of those things,do you coddle to the guys who are lower tiered,or make them get it in gear to advance their skills.

I agree. In our club, you're going to finish last as a noob in Pro (and now we have a transplant from your area putting even more pressure on us). The Am class is actually very competitive, with positions changing every comps.

Originally Posted by rock hard

My 1st season I never finished a course that I recall,our courses was brutal hard at times.I wasn't intimidated,I saw other guys doing it,its all a matter of
wheel time and the trucks limitations and I knew that,being able to see a line,and then drive it is the most important thing we al know it.

My first season running pro, I placed third and only finished one course. The courses were ridiculous. now they'd probably be laughably easy, though.

And that's the reason for the seperation of the 2 classes, some people share the dedication to the hobby and commitment to improve that when things don't go well for them, they work to get better.

There are plenty of people, though, who don't share that desire. They just want to show up to the comps and have fun hanging out and running trucks with their friends.

It's up to the clubs to make sure that those people have fun. It is not up to the national rules committee, unless it's just to make suggestions, such as having an option for a 20pt carry rule. Otherwise, the individual clubs have a better feel for what it takes to attract and retain people in their area.

Originally Posted by rock hard

I myself don't think anything should be done nationally to accommodate new drivers..the rules are really for national events,and state clubs fighting for a national spot,where the best are the ones spending the time and money to compete/travel to the event.How many 1st time,or 1st week or 1st month,or box stock drivers go to nats?

I agree completely. There can be optional suggestions (such as with the 20pt carry or off course repairs), but the rules should be geared for Nationals Qualifiers and Nationals Competition.

Originally Posted by rock hard

keep the rules as they have been,force drivers to "advance"their skill level if they want to me competitive......besides.no matter what you do,or how you do it,there will still be those consistently at the bottom of the pack.

I try to encourage the people at the bottom of the pack to pick people of a similiar skill or build level to compete against within the ranks. Even though they might not have the ability to take home a trophy, have fun trying to win bragging rights over their buddies.

[EvilTwin v2]

Originally Posted by krawlfreak

I really don't agree with this...

I of all have offered more info than Most on every facet of the sport all the way.down to giving and posting exact national winning setups.

I wasn't trying to say that you want to be like them. I have read your threads and I've seen that you're great about posting setups. You're actually one that I was referring to as willing to share and help.

I was pointing out that the other sides of the RC hobby who we may be trying to attract don't share our desire to help. Many of them are self first. Other than sales numbers, there's really no parts of that side of the hobby that I want to associate with.

[krawlfreak]

Originally Posted by EvilTwin v2

I wasn't trying to say that you want to be like them. I have read your threads and I've seen that you're great about posting setups. You're actually one that I was referring to as willing to share and help.

I was pointing out that the other sides of the RC hobby who we may be trying to attract don't share our desire to help. Many of them are self first. Other than sales numbers, there's really no parts of that side of the hobby that I want to associate with.

Understandable

[rock hard]

Originally Posted by krawlfreak

I guess you have not noticed the dwindling #s at national events. That is what this is really about, hence the reasoning. If the national level events fail where does that leave the clubs that are only sanctioned to get a nationals bid.

You don't have to understand it...or except it, but that is the reasoning. Like I said before maybe it was flawed.

The fact is growing the sport may take sacrifice from some. I am willing are you?

hmmm,I would agree that attendance is down.....and I would bet its the poor condition of our economy.I know it is for me,I would absolutely love to attend more comps,hell the disposable income simply isn't there.


how many news attend national event????
that is poor logic IMO to think making sportsman a body only class wil somehow make new guys buy plane tickets to travel to a comp in distant states.
or even spend the cash for fuel and motel to attend states.

Nope.its the die hard guys who love to compete that will spend the money to travel just to measure their skills,and hang with guys likeminded.

and as such,its the die hard guys in each state who you,as a rule commitie members should have considered 1st and foremost IMO

[EvilTwin v2]

Originally Posted by rock hard

hmmm,I would agree that attendance is down.....and I would bet its the poor condition of our economy.I know it is for me,I would absolutely love to attend more comps,hell the disposable income simply isn't there.


how many news attend national event????
that is poor logic IMO to think making sportsman a body only class wil somehow make new guys buy plane tickets to travel to a comp in distant states.
or even spend the cash for fuel and motel to attend states.

Nope.its the die hard guys who love to compete that will spend the money to travel just to measure their skills,and hang with guys likeminded.

and as such,its the die hard guys in your state who you,as a rule commitie members should consider 1st and foremost IMO

I agree with this. It's a trickle down effect.

If the people already at the comp have a positive attitude, are welcoming, and having fun, that will do far more to attract and retain newcomers than anything else.

My view of the rules committee is simply to have a standard set of rules in effect that allow people to have fun without having too many loopholes for people to bend or cheat. It shouldn't be our place to regulate the hobby.

[krawlfreak]

Originally Posted by rock hard

hmmm,I would agree that attendance is down.....and I would bet its the poor condition of our economy.I know it is for me,I would absolutely love to attend more comps,hell the disposable income simply isn't there.


how many news attend national event????
that is poor logic IMO to think making sportsman a body only class wil somehow make new guys buy plane tickets to travel to a comp in distant states.
or even spend the cash for fuel and motel to attend states.

Nope.its the die hard guys who love to compete that will spend the money to travel just to measure their skills,and hang with guys likeminded.

and as such,its the die hard guys in each state who you,as a rule commitie members should have considered 1st and foremost IMO

I was a newb that attended a national event ounce...as were pretyy much all of you.

Have you been seeing new faces at these events...or the same old great mugs as always?

[mindless]

Can i bring up one more point with out being an a$$. Why is the committee even having a vote on this, when was there an issue that made this need to be addressed. Are they trying to show they are doing something or what. This just is a case of fix it till its broke. If it isnt broke dont fix it!

So lets ban bodiless from 1.9 super and pro also and then make 2 classes for each one of those. Have a pro and am and shafty and trucks with over 5.5" tires and those with under and then off the self tires and cut and shuts and.... yea you get the idea its ridiculous. We are here to push the limits of what we have and what we like no need to regulate that.