Looking for more flex

[Coco_Dont_Know]

Hey guys I'm pretty new to the forums but been scale crawling for about a year. I have a honcho with 1.9 tsl IROK's and the axial aluminum links. I recently bought the Gmade XD piggyback 103mm shocks. Turns out I hate them and I'm pretty upset I spent 100 dollars on them. Seem to just make my honcho roll more when ever I try getting some flex out of it. So my question is what can I do to make my suspension 100 times better? I was thinking about trying some 20 wt oil? I've tried adjusting them a lot and tried all that. I JUST WANT FLEX!!! Just don't know what to do to get my money out of these. At this point I'm thinking about switching back to stock springs. Anyone think I should try 20 wt oil first? What's your guy's opinion. Any input would be very appreciated. Thanks!

[SirKarnage]

Could try no oil. well just enough to keep the shaft wet

[Coco_Dont_Know]

Originally Posted by SirKarnage

Could try no oil. well just enough to keep the shaft wet

Always gotta keep that shaft wet

But would that work? Running no oil? Or would it just kinda sink to the ground?

[TacoCrawler]

sounds to me like your coil spring rates are too stiff

I run the cheapo traxxas 100mm ultimate shocks. (similar to their plastic big bores)

But at static ride... my suspension sits squat about 3/4"
I also have about the same amount of up travel.
This was done by using 4" Losi Soft coil springs (white)
The spring rate selection would also be subject to/determined by the chassis weight.
(my chassis weighs in at about 7.5 lbs)

Ideally... your suspension should be set...
at 60% down travel and 40% up travel when static.
This is a common suspension travel setting engineered for most 1:1 rigs as well.

My SCX-10's suspension is run actually closer to 50/50 (v down/^ up)

I run 30 weight in the front cause the chassis is heavier up front.
and 20 weight in the rear because it's somewhat lighter at the rear.
If the weight were balanced front to rear...
then it would be advisable to use the same shock oil weight Fr/Rr

Shock oil weight does not control ride height.
It only slows the shock's movement/motion,
thus slowing the chassis in it's gravitational pull downward (weight) * up travel as well.

Heavier weight shock oil will slow that movement down more
while thinner shock oil is less restricting to the shock's motion.
Determining shock oil weight will be dependent on the weight of the chassis.
So trial and error will be the course of the day when selecting what is needed.

Silicone shock oil is best for the least amount of viscosity change
when the weather is colder.
But it will still be affected by ambient temps
And so that should be a consideration when choosing which shock oil weight should be selected.

There is more to that of course...
as the shock has a piston... and the amount and size of the holes in that
will also affect the shocks oil viscosity.

There's a whole host of other things that can limit articulation...
Once even... my drive shaft's "slip shaft" began to bind somewhat...
when that occurred... the suspension's down travel was limited a bunch
because the drive shaft was not compressing into itself during suspension compression.
The fix was simply a new replacement drive shaft.

I could go on and on...

but I think you need to start by moving to softer coil springs

a softer coil could be stiffened (pre-load) more by adding or adjusting
pre-load collars...
But a coil spring that is too stiff... is not easily compensated for.
well... unless more weight is added to the chassis.

[6sharky9]

My take is the shocks are way to tall for an scx10...Gmade made the 93mm shocks for the scx10 and the 103mm for wraiths or other models.

You can buy cheap lowering brackets that attach to your shock hoops and add weight were you don't want it to fix the problem or get the proper shocks..You don't need super tall shocks to gain articulation/flex.

Ive gotten nearly 5 inches of wheel travel before from RTR 90mm scx10 shocks.

Tuning helps any rig rather too tall or not but your case is your Center of gravity is way tall..even lowering it some with softer springs still doesn't help much as you still have a higher CG than it was stock...You've Compensated some for your height (still too tall) and not necessarily TUNED your shocks for the best performance.

If you want the taller profile tires and NEED those tall shocks to clear your body to get that added flex then you just have to deal with the tipping over unless you widen the rig an equal amount to compensate like the shocks were designed for with a wraith or other wide models.. or accept less flex with your set up using the taller tires before your wheels dig into your body and destroy it unless you cut it up to gain clearance.

[mallcrawler24]

Originally Posted by 6sharky9

Ive gotten nearly 5 inches of wheel travel before from RTR 90mm scx10 shocks.

do you have any pictures of how you did that? im running the stock shocks on my honcho and looking to improve my wheel travel.

[Meatwad]

Anything more than a tire height is worse for performance...

[canadianbacon]

Originally Posted by Meatwad

Anything more than a tire height is worse for performance...

That's what I go for too, well actually a little bit less.

[arctichorse]

For scale looks to performance and flexing 90-93mm is the sweet spot I've realized, you can get a lot of flex without jacking your crawler up high, just depends on the shock and the amount of shaft travel, for your shock dilemma, you're either going to have to squat your current shocks (softer springs or customizing your current springs) to lower the ride height or get new shocks. You can always sell your current ones for a good price and get the one's you want because chances are they'll most likely be in the 30 dollar range for a pair for what you want and still have some money left over, your current shocks don't go cheap.

[R2j]

Originally Posted by Meatwad

Anything more than a tire height is worse for performance...

Originally Posted by canadianbacon

That's what I go for too, well actually a little bit less.

Yep rule of thumb is only as much as the tire is tall. Too much flex will cause troubles. I would run a 90mm shock such as the stock shock or lower the ones you have.


Does the new shocks feel stiffer than the stock one? What weight oil did you run in the stock shocks. I've always had good luck with the stock SCX10 shocks with the 30W that comes with them. Heck I even run them on my Wraiths.

[neobaja]

Originally Posted by Coco_Dont_Know

Hey guys I'm pretty new to the forums but been scale crawling for about a year. I have a honcho with 1.9 tsl IROK's and the axial aluminum links. I recently bought the Gmade XD piggyback 103mm shocks. Turns out I hate them and I'm pretty upset I spent 100 dollars on them. Seem to just make my honcho roll more when ever I try getting some flex out of it. So my question is what can I do to make my suspension 100 times better? I was thinking about trying some 20 wt oil? I've tried adjusting them a lot and tried all that. I JUST WANT FLEX!!! Just don't know what to do to get my money out of these. At this point I'm thinking about switching back to stock springs. Anyone think I should try 20 wt oil first? What's your guy's opinion. Any input would be very appreciated. Thanks!

Don't worry mate your not the only one that is not impressed by them, they just don't work as a normal shock, they can't.

I have the exact same shocks and to get some kind of articulation I have remove oil and adjusting screws and added gmades softest springs and still too stiff, they are a gimmick as far as I'm concerned and I got done,lol.

The adjustment screws just build up pressure in the shock not allowing the damping to work as it normally would, if you want to stiffen up your truck they are perfect,lol, but at the expense of damping.

[redsawacs]

Oil does not affect flex or ride height...it absorbs vibration and slows or speeds up compression/rebound.

Springs affect how far your springs compresses and hold the vehicle up in the air. If you want more flex, you need longer shocks. That's the only way to get more travel...well, that and fix any obstructions that may prevent flex.

If your springs are compressing completely before the piston has reached full travel, then you need a different springs that allows more compression. If you're hitting something on the frame before the piston has reached full travel, you need to rectify that or get different shocks. If your springs are too hard, they will not allow the piston to reach full travel.

You can run a longer shock and mount it higher on the chassis to keep the same ride height or run soft springs for a droop set up. But, you're still gonna be limited to chassis obstructions unless you rectify that.

I could be wrong - I'll entertain corrections constructively

[neobaja]

Yes I agree totally with what your saying, but pressure in the shock body sure will effect everything, that's how these shocks work by applying pressure through the adjustment screw.

In my case the springs are too hard therefore not allowing the shocks to fully compress even without oil, they nearly fully compress as is but with any oil/pressure there was no chance of gaining what I have now, I have tried everything and my conclusion is as I say.

These shocks will tend to leak more as you adjust the pressure up as it puts more pressure on the seals, a normal shock will use the piston / holes as the damping along with the viscosity of the oil the xd's use trapped pressure to stop piston moving not the viscosity of the oil.

[Meatwad]

The trick with the xd's is to not even use the pressure adjustment, thread the screw in while building and bleed as normal. So as not to stress the seals, as mentioned. Use shock oils as damping adjustment.

The stock springs are ok or even a little light for my 1.9 piggy. On lighter rigs I can see them being problematic.

[Badd]

If your rig is in the 5.5 to 6lbs range . Try running the stock 90mm with RED/RED springs all 4 coners and remove the rubber bump stops . I run 30w oil front and rear in the summer . I back up to 15w in cold weather .

If your rig is in 6 to 7lbs range the stock RED/GREEN comb works good . If you are on the lower side . Say near 6lbs try the RED/RED on the front . I got to play around find what fits your drive style .

Make sure you don't put to much oil . Screw the cap on and make sure you have full up stroke with spring removed . If not remove a very small amount of oil .

Remember to much flex is a bad thing . Keep your flex to same as your tire height and you will be golden .

[neobaja]

Originally Posted by Meatwad

The trick with the xd's is to not even use the pressure adjustment, thread the screw in while building and bleed as normal. So as not to stress the seals, as mentioned. Use shock oils as damping adjustment.

The stock springs are ok or even a little light for my 1.9 piggy. On lighter rigs I can see them being problematic.

You understand what I'm saying the pressure adjustment screw is better not used as they will not work properly if used.

I guess I went about it the long way, lol,

yeah the soft springs are slightly hard for my truck, I don't hate these shocks, I just think the adjustment side of things is a croc of ....

[HDMM]

Also, if you want to use a longer shock, run some droop brackets to lower your ride height. Thats will help with flex / roll overs.

[6sharky9]

Originally Posted by mallcrawler24

do you have any pictures of how you did that? im running the stock shocks on my honcho and looking to improve my wheel travel.

Yes I do..When my photobucket resets as ive gone past my so called bandwith limit you will be able to see many pictures ive posted of it on here. Unfortunately all my pics are down due to photobucket at this time.

I had a custom scaler showing the flex with huge 5 inch tall tires going as high or just slightly under the tires own height of 5 inches with 90mm RTR shocks...Ive traded the scaler recently but the pics will still be on here.

[dwblue00]

Sorry to hear that the gmade shocks arent working for you. The RC4WD faux piggyback king shocks @ 100mm are great and offer great flex. The stock axial shocks offer decent flex and arent all that bad. But remember and lets be realistic here.... this is a SCX10 its not going to give you comp. crawler flex. From my experience and others that I have read 90-100mm shocks work the best on a scx10.

[6sharky9]

I use 100mm losi comp shocks on my honcho but limited the down travel to a 93mm eye to eye...I layed the shock down in whats called ALPHA ANGLE and haven't looked back since..I have the maximum amount of flex or articulation I can possible have for my trucks set up and it sits at stock ride height with longer shocks...I would show pics or refer you to a thread that has them but my photobucket limit has been reached until it resets itself.

A quick explination to what Alpha angle is:

A shock mounted straight up and down will give you the same in wheel travel it has in shock travel..meaning if your shocks have for example 2 inches of travel then you will get 2 inches of wheel travel.

Alpha angle changes this relationship where you can use the same 2 inches of shock travel but now have 2-1/4 inches of wheel travel.

Mounting the tops of the shocks down at an angle leaning towards the trans or center of the truck is what alpha angle is

So it would look like this if you were looking at the passenger side of the vehicle: Rear /...front \

This also can lower your vehicle back down to a reasonable ride height while giving you added articulation but the longer the shock is the more they have to be leaned down which may give you more travel than you can use...so you have to figure it..With my 93mm its perfect for 1.9 using the lower profile ripsaws or proline flat iron tire diameters...If I use something taller I would have to raise the shock to gain the clearance I would need..You just have to experiment to get it right for your set up.

It does however make your shock feel softer but they respond better to the terrain in my experience...Shock tuning still plays a part so don't forget that..If its too soft then youll need to adjust preload or use a higher weight oil in the shock to compensate...if too stiff then the opposite.

Basicly take a look at committed rock crawlers...Why are those shocks mounted so far down at the tops and why they have so much flex in them..Rock crawlers do very well over terrain..No different for a trail truck...you just have more of a limit to your flex and yes more than one tires diameter of flex will hurt performance but youll be no wheres near that with your trail truck without a lot of body and maybe chassis mods.

Also keep in mind with this method you don't need big bulky aluminum plates attached high up on your shock towers to lower the truck.
103mm shocks are still way too tall in your case ..You may could use spacers inside the shocks as I have to help get you back to a reasonable ride height.
You CAN lay those tall shocks down a lot to get your ride height back but you will have more flex than your truck will ever be capable of..you will hit the body and chassis
long before you used up your shock travel...You will need to make custom brackets though to do that and make stiffener braces to go across the extended shock hoop brackets..Ill try to post a pic using tiny pic..not sure if that's an attachement or a host I can post with but ill try.