Different take on Suspension

[spaceman5280]

Looks good, I've done a 1:1 front suspension with independent coils and we used a tapered post on the top that extended down far enough to be used as a bump stop, this doubled as a guide, maybe you could use a similar design to keep the springs from s ing.

Another thing is to change the angle of the springs to put them more in line with the arc of travel.

Lastly, while I don't agree with the tone of some of the comments, making the spring as short at possible while still getting the travel you want will help.


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[TacoCrawler]

Originally Posted by Stollenritter

In order to get room for a full interior / rear compartment I startet tinkering around with the suspension. First idea was to build a leaf spring setup, but I was afraid to loose to much travel and flex, so I am playing around now with a coil sprung setup with separate shocks.

Enough words, pics now:

My apology to you, if I came across as being disrespectful in my critique.
I wasn't trying to be critical of your fabrication skills or effort made.

I think your craftsmanship and effort made was a very nice attempt.
And you acknowledged the long coil spring deficiency of your own.

I was only pointing out that the theory of using too long of coil spring
has been attempted in 1:1 by many engineers throughout the years...
and they were unable to resolve the problems associated.

I'm sure you can find/make resolve in your design
and have your suspension working as you would hope.

Again, sorry If I came across as insulting to your efforts made.
was not my intention.

Good luck in your venture.

Originally Posted by spaceman5280

Lastly, while I don't agree with the tone of some of the comments, making the spring as short at possible while still getting the travel you want will help.

I'll suppose my tone could have been friendlier

It's just my experience that the theory of using longer coil springs
would likely be an impossiblity even if it had internal guides (bumps).

But I thank you for supporting my notion of utilizing shorter coil springs.

Shorter coils do work and still offer the travel necessary.
And is being utilized on many current 4X4s today.
So I know that design is plausible.

But this longer coil spring design, with internal retainers (bumps), is not that case...

[Stollenritter]

Wohoo! I was looking for input and discussion, but I didn´t meant to disunite you folks!

First, thank you all for your ideas, for your opinions and for your support. I appreciate that!
So, no offence taken.

I am far from ignoring history at all. Maybe I missed a thing or two - that`s quite possible.
As stated before, I took inspiration from an old Land Rover. I did not say I will copy it.

My goal is a mixture of scale looks and satisfying crawler performance. If it looks full scale, performance is way down due to a lot limitation: tire size, travel, flex - we all know.
So I started a scale setup with slightly enlarged proportions: longer shocks, flatter shock angle, larger than scale springs.
And of course i ran into real world problems: messed up geometrie with bending / bowing springs.
As we know, bending springs are a result of an unbalanced length/diameter ratio.
To achieve a lot of travel without bending springs, you have to move the springs towards the pivot point, respectively move them together, as shown by TacoCrawler in post #11.
Downside here: your rig wont stay stable. Hmm, it may stay stable if you COG is low and as long as you are not going fast.
Beside the Lexan body I have a Cherokee Hardbody laying around, so I have to move my springs outward to get a stable stand for a top heavy rig.

I may end up reducing spring lenght and travel as well as flex at least for one axle (front or rear) to achieve acceptable performance and a more or less scale look. We will see.


Until then, keep your input coming let me know what you think but don`t chop up each other!

[Mr_Ed]

"My goal is a mixture of scale looks and satisfying crawler performance. If it looks full scale, performance is way down due to a lot limitation: tire size, travel, flex - we all know.
"
Or, we make up in denial ��
There are more things that make the separate spring bend rather than compress. For example when the axle twists rather than move up... Which is most often the case. But does it matter? As long as the spring stays in place and counteracts the force put on it, I suppose it works fine.

[spaceman5280]

But this longer coil spring design, with internal retainers (bumps), is not that case...

[/QUOTE]



I can't see the whole suspension in the photo, but it appears that the bent spring is secondary damage caused by failure of the panhard since the spring perches seem to be misaligned

This happened to the 1:1 we built, the panhard failed and caused side to side misalignment. Once we redesigned the panhard, the suspension has worked perfectly for over a decade of on and off road travel.


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[WHITE-TRASH]

What happens in the 1:1 world doesn't always equate directly to the 1:10 world. We can get away with much, MUCH more in the 1:10 world that would never work on a larger scale. The OP is happy with the setup and it works to his satisfaction and that's all that matters. Don't like it? Fine, nobody is going to come to your house and force you to install it.

[OSRC]

Originally Posted by TacoCrawler

Video of that to prove your claim

How about a picture good sir?



There's a build thread in the CR01 section...not that anyone goes in there anymore but me.

[Stollenritter]

Soo, gentlemen. You are giving me a hard time here.
No progress on my build so far, not even the promised pics
I am still prozessing all your input here. I haven`t expected that much attention, but I am happy you all chimed in!

Originally Posted by whitrzac

Because it's been done before...

That`s the right attitude!

Originally Posted by JTB488

If the OP wants to play with the suspension on his rig, is having fun doing it and not telling everyone else to do it...what's the problem??? Isn't part of this hobby about experimenting and having fun??

That`s how it should be!

Originally Posted by OSRC

I've been running standalone coils on my CR01 for years. Working like a charm. I do get some some S-bending at full compression, but it's never been a problem. I think your setup looks great! If it works for you, that's all that matters.

Thank you for your kind words.
Although I`ve just a roller at the moment, it looks indeed like the s-bent won`t affect the springs performance (spring rate) too bad.

Originally Posted by spaceman5280

Looks good, I've done a 1:1 front suspension with independent coils and we used a tapered post on the top that extended down far enough to be used as a bump stop, this doubled as a guide, maybe you could use a similar design to keep the springs from s ing.
Another thing is to change the angle of the springs to put them more in line with the arc of travel.

Excellent suggestion! Best would be a trackrod which keeps the lower springseat aligned to the upper springseat at any given angle.

Lastly, while I don't agree with the tone of some of the comments, making the spring as short at possible while still getting the travel you want will help.

I agree on both subjects.
.. but I will stick to the longer springs at the moment, because I have them with different spring rates at hand.

Originally Posted by TacoCrawler

My apology to you, if I came across as being disrespectful in my critique.
I wasn't trying to be critical of your fabrication skills or effort made.
...

Again, no offence taken. I will bear your aspects in mind and I am happy that you are still on board. Even more as you announced to be friendlier now.

Originally Posted by makya

*yawn*
I like what he did, so what?

Thanks for the compliment and for taking sides, but we are all friends now and we will focus on the technical aspect now.

Originally Posted by Mr_Ed

Or, we make up in denial ��
There are more things that make the separate spring bend rather than compress. For example when the axle twists rather than move up... Which is most often the case. But does it matter? As long as the spring stays in place and counteracts the force put on it, I suppose it works fine.

Correct. But we will play around a bit more. That`s the point, isn`t it?

Originally Posted by WHITE-TRASH

What happens in the 1:1 world doesn't always equate directly to the 1:10 world. We can get away with much, MUCH more in the 1:10 world that would never work on a larger scale. The OP is happy with the setup and it works to his satisfaction and that's all that matters. Don't like it? Fine, nobody is going to come to your house and force you to install it.

True, we can do things and deny other, which we obviously couldn`t in the real world. But maybe we find a way to get the best of both worlds. Or at least a reasonable compromise.

Originally Posted by OSRC

How about a picture good sir? ...

That looks good, so I may find an acceptable solution for my project.


I am going to get my camera to work now ...

[Stollenritter]

I tried to keep the camera and truck in their positions while taking pictures to give a more objektiv look, which wasn`t to easy (for me). First series of pics is with the truck jacked up, second series is with wheels on ground.

1.) Full droop:


2.) Full compression:


3.) Flex at half way through shock travel:


4.) Flex almost 2/3 through shock travel:


5.) Flex at full block:

[Stollenritter]

Second series of pics:

6.) Full droop:


7.) Half compression:


8.) Full compression:


9.) Flex at 1/3 through shock travel:


10.) Flex almost 2/3 through shock travel:


11.) Flex at (almost) full block:


Impressions:

- while flex at 1/2 travel looks ok, its getting ugly at 2/3 travel
- full flex works, but looks really ugly and way out of shape


Conclusions (by now):
- I could reduce travel to 50% by limiting shocks and achieve a scale look
- I could leave it as is, having 50% of scale travel and getting ugly when going full flex

[pobrockcrawler]

This is awesome and looks great, something I want to do to my scx10 d90!!

I might chime in with some ideas if you don't mind?

Looking at it I would say those springs are tad long. What I recommend is to use a smaller spring but attach it to the chassis end of the spring and make a perch on the axle with a relocator on. This is how 1.1 land rover d90 are when fitting longer shocks to them, I should know as I have one and have done this!! This way you keep full travel in the shock, loose the spring bending and retain a scale ride height.

I've got a couple pics of my 1.1 to help out

Full compression


Full drop, the spring is not touching the axle here


The full setup at max droop, you can see the spring relocator on the axle (gold triangular piece)


Hope this helps out at all

[Stollenritter]

Originally Posted by pobrockcrawler

This is awesome and looks great, something I want to do to my scx10 d90!!

I might chime in with some ideas if you don't mind?

Looking at it I would say those springs are tad long. What I recommend is to use a smaller spring but attach it to the chassis end of the spring and make a perch on the axle with a relocator on. This is how 1.1 land rover d90 are when fitting longer shocks to them, I should know as I have one and have done this!! This way you keep full travel in the shock, loose the spring bending and retain a scale ride height.

I've got a couple pics of my 1.1 to help out

Yes, I might end up using shorter springs, but first I have to finish my build and have a look at the ride height. So it will take some time until I get back to the rear suspension.
Your pics of your 1:1 are very helpful indeed! The floating spring design seems to be very popular among the LandRover comminity, albeit not uncontroversial discussed. Anyway, I like your D90 and your setup! My 110 isn`t that spectacular at all
I guess you have another set of wheels for offroading?

Thank you for chiming in and sharing your ideas!

[Say what?]

Your not the only one with a different take on suspension, how about GCM:

GCM CMAX Chassis Now Available Dec.1

~D

[Stollenritter]

Originally Posted by Say what?

Your not the only one with a different take on suspension, how about GCM:

GCM CMAX Chassis Now Available Dec.1

~D

A very artful piece of work and very scale, without doubt. Springs seats are looking exactly like my 1:1.

Anyway, I am looking for an extra tad of travel and flex, not for an exact scale replica.
If I was ok with a smaller amount of travel, I would have done a leaf spring setup, which would be scale to a cherokee:


I did a scetch on how to mod the scx10-2 axlehousing to be leaf sprung:





I even started on buying, building and modifying parts, but I let it be because I had strong doubts to make it work with the desired amount of travel.

[Stollenritter]

More pics, for those who care

Butchered down axlehousing:


Ends shortened (seat removed) and turned down to 12mm diameter, M12x1 thread at the end:


Sleeves, bushing (ball bearing in final version) and spacer:


Arrangement: (outer) sleeve with M12x1 inside will be screwed on axle housing. Inner shoulder will lock bearing to spacer / axle housing:


Bolted up:


Comparison: sleeved end vs stock end:


G-Made u-bolts and selfmade brackets:


Mocking up:


M12x1 seems ideal. 12mm outer diameter on axle housing is almost stock diameter (~12,05), core diameter for M12x1 is 11mm, which is the outer diameter of the bearing. So drilling out the sleeve for the bearing seat is also predrilling for M12x1, and you don`t have to care about thread length ...

[Stollenritter]

Some more pics of the almost finished axle.

Modified Tamiya shock with Kyosho rod end. Leaf spring is RC4WD Z-S0518 (Soft Steel Leaf Spring for Trailfinder). Others should work also:











The Axial shocks are too long, Traxxas BigBores are to wide ...

[M J]

Curious to see how things turned out - found this thread while attempting to see how others have made these spring perches work. Great work so far!

[Stollenritter]

It`s been a while ...
I have done some more work on this one and at least it is a runner now. Got some Xtra Speed axles for more weight down low, painted the body and took it out for a ride.
So on to the pics, please enjoy:













This rig is absolutely amazing and a ton of fun to drive!!

[IVIaarten]

Glad to hear it worked out for you. Truck is looking great.

[rickrob]

Gcm makes a mount for leafs springs for ar44 axle. I use them and haven't had any issue with them. Didn't really notice a decrease in performance with rear leafs at all. For me it almost seemed to make the truck more capable.