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-   -   Choosing a motor and ESC for your Wraith - Gearing Added! (http://www.rccrawler.com/forum/axial-wraith/346212-choosing-motor-esc-your-wraith-gearing-added.html)

Harley 11-04-2011 01:25 PM

Choosing a motor and ESC for your Wraith - Gearing Added!
 
I'll refine this as time goes.

Choosing a Motor and ESC

The most common question asked in the Wraith section seems to be “What motor should I run”. I can see why people don’t know what motor to chose, it is a multi-level problem to solve. While those questions will never stop hopefully we can cut some of them down by adding this reference.

To make a long story short, for more detailed info read the following posts:

Good speed and OK crawling: Tekin 13.5 Redline (or Tekin Pro 4 3300) and Castle Mamba Max Pro – Faster than stock 20t motor and fairly smooth low end. Not a good choice for water or mud.

Good crawling and OK speed: Holmes Crawlmaster 13t and Holmes BRXL – OK for water and mud as long as you get the waterproof ESC and keep your motor maintained.

Best for crawling and low speed: Holmes 35t TorqueMaster Pro and Holmes BRXL – Smooth crawling with enough wheel speed to get up hills.

Harley 11-04-2011 01:25 PM

Choosing a motor and ESC for your Wraith
 
“I want more speed than stock but still want to be able to crawl”

And I want a million dollars… Ok it’s not that far of a reach but having everything isn’t easy. The problem is that if you want more speed you are going to sacrifice things. Brushed motors will not last as long and will require maintenance but will have the best low end for crawling.* Brushless (must be sensored) will require very little maintenance but are more expensive and are not a good idea if you want to play in water and mud.

Do you plan on playing in water and mud?

If Yes- then brushed is your safest bet. Brushless can be made to play in the mud and water but you run the risk of damaging it. The faster the brushed motor you chose the faster you are going to burn it up in the rocks. If you want to still be able to crawl then you are not going to be able to get much faster than stock, that is something you have to deal with.

Best Choice: Holmes 13t Crawlmaster (5 slot motor which is similar to a 27t traditional 3 slot motor)

Middle Budget Choice:* Holmes TorqueMaster Expert 540 27t

Budget Choice: Holmes Sport 540 27t

*

If No - Then brushless is going to give you better results for speed and with the right setup can still crawl OK. If you want any crawling control you must use a sensored brushless system. It can give you good low speed control but still hit the higher speeds. There aren’t many “reliable” budget options without chancing it on a Hong Kong brand system, and I can’t personally recommend doing that.

Good Choices for ESC’s: Mamba Max Pro and Tekin RS Pro

Good Choices for Motor’s: Tekin 13.5 Redline, Tekin Pro 4 3300

Harley 11-04-2011 01:28 PM

Pure Crawling Performance

This is a much easier choice than the others. If you want the best crawling performance you need to stay with a brushed motor. It is important that you look into re-gearing your crawler, the stock gearing is very high and could cause motor failure when in the rocks. Even though it’s crawling you still do need wheel speed at times though. My suggestions:

Best Choice: Holmes 16t Crawlmaster (5 slot motor which is similar to a 27t traditional 3 slot motor)

Middle Budget Choice: *Holmes TorqueMaster Expert 540 35t

Budget Choice: Holmes Sport 540 35t

*

Pure Speed

Just bolt in the fastest brushless you can find and watch the trail of parts fall out behind you…

Harley 11-04-2011 01:28 PM

GEARING!

Ok, I've answered the "what gearing for my xxxxx setup" question about 346 times too many. It's time to try and cover it as best I can here. *However the issue is that it goes hand in hand with motor choice, so this could get windy. These are all just starting points and there are hundreds or thousands of combinations. This is just a quick reference to get new people started in the right direction.

First off, when I refer to numbers in the format similar to "80/20", this means 80 tooth spur/20 tooth pinion. So, 84/14 would mean 84t spur/14t pinion, clear?



Are you running a stock motor? Short story, 84/16

If so then your gearing choices are limited but should be handled immediately if you are running the RTR. The stock gearing 80/20 (4:1 ratio) is too high of a ratio for the stock motor. The stock motor will not last you long anyway but if you want to extend it's life you need to regear, NOW. You are going to lose speed, there is just no way around it, I would suggest an 84/16 (5.25:1 ratio) setup.



Are you running a little higher speed brushed or brushless (Examples: 13t CrawlMaster, 27t TorqueMaster, 13.5 Redline)? Short Story, 56/12 32p (brushed) 56/14 32p (brushless) (note from Holmes- 56/12 has caused problems with brushed motors, we recommend 56/10 or 84/16)

Did you read the post #2? If you are running something I suggested (or similar to that) then the stock gear ratio is probably fine for you. The problem is that the little 48 pitch gears can't hold the power, you need to upgrade to 32 pitch gears. The stock ratio of 4:1 is fine, so you just need to equivalent in 32p. 56/14 is the same ratio. You can still run the stock spur cover with this setup as well. If you want a little more strength and tooth contact area you can go to 60/15 but the stock spur cover is likely a no go. Also with the 60/15 setup some motors require you to do a little filing on the motor plate to slide the motor over further. If you are running/wanting a Tekin Pro4 (or similar high power brushless) then see the last section.



Are you running something for mostly trails and crawling (example, 35t Torqemaster)? Short Story, 84/18

If you changed out your motor to something with a little more low end control and power then you likely could benefit from a better gear ratio. This isn't a must for a setup in this range however. The stock ratio is OK, but just not ideal in my opinion for someone who is looking to spend most of their time going slow. I do still feel that even if you're a rock crawler only that you will benefit from some wheel speed. I would suggest that if you do change gearing you start with an 84/18 setup.



Are you running a Tekin Pro4 (or similar high power brushless)? Short story. just read the rest of it!

If so then you likely need to build everything as strong as possible. I have gone this route personally. My suggestion is the 56t Gen3 metal spur and slipper setup from Robinson racing. To run this setup you will also need to buy a Traxxas slipper rebuild kit, all you will use from this kit is a black spring and a lock nut though. The next thing you need to buy is the Beefy top shaft from v84x4 here on RCC. I will include a link shortly. With the Pro4 you also must buy a pinion that has a 5mm bore and is hardened steel so that it wears more slowly against the steel spur gear, a 14t pinion is my suggestion. The Pro4 is very high power and you will likely spend the rest of your money replacing things in the truck since it was never meant to have something like this bolted into it!


That is my best first shot at handling this question. I'll come back and edit as required.

frdtrkguy 11-04-2011 01:34 PM

Good info"thumbsup"

spunkysandoval 11-04-2011 01:34 PM

Great reccomendations Harley.

I just switched from insanse 4s brushless power to a more moderate 3s brushed setup.

Axial Ae-2 esc
CC 10a BEC
Holmes 27t sport
7954sh Servo

"thumbsup"

Harley 11-04-2011 01:37 PM

I'll get this formatted better when I get home. I'm posting from my iPhone now is why. I'll make it much easier to read and separate it into smaller posts. That way we can easily link the people that don't read here first!

crazee horse 11-04-2011 01:58 PM

well Harley, i get mine tomorrow, and just want a mild trail mudder . what would you suggest ? will be stock for a while as christmas is coming..............

The Misfit 11-04-2011 02:10 PM

Just my 2 cents
 
I have the Holmes Sport 540 35t with a 12t pinion stock spur. I had to slot the motor plat an i also added some small spacers between the motor plat an motor so the motor would slide over just a little more. I had the same set up but with a 15t pinion an i just needed a little more i found the 12t to be perfect for crawling. I also locked out my sliper clutch,Robbinson Racing tranny gears,MIP drivelines an geared down the rear axle.

I did run in to a little stumper the first thing i did was put a new servo in my rig so i could build a servo winch out of the stock servo. Its all set up i just dont know where to mount it. I serched to see what people are doing an iv only seen a hand full of Wraiths with winchs. Any one got any ideas?

Thanks for reading sorry for the spelling

Harley 11-04-2011 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crazee horse (Post 3363979)
well Harley, i get mine tomorrow, and just want a mild trail mudder . what would you suggest ? will be stock for a while as christmas is coming..............

Trail running, go with the 13t CM or one of the 27t setups. That's mainly what mine is.

James888 11-04-2011 04:10 PM

13t crawlmaster
 
i went with the 13t cm and the 5th battery over a couple weeks it went up in smoke it was only the first pack of the day 2 cell 5000 30c 80/20 geared wraith what do u think i need to do was a bad motor or do i go brushless if so 17.5 or 13.5

Harley 11-04-2011 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by James888 (Post 3364208)
i went with the 13t cm and the 5th battery over a couple weeks it went up in smoke it was only the first pack of the day 2 cell 5000 30c 80/20 geared wraith what do u think i need to do was a bad motor or do i go brushless if so 17.5 or 13.5

I have hours and hours on mine. A fast motor like this you have to drive smart. When in a bind you can't just lay into it or you can smoke it. You can send it in and have it rebuilt. May be the best bet.

322 11-04-2011 04:38 PM

Thanks for doing this post Harley"thumbsup"

AaronJ 11-04-2011 04:54 PM

I wish this would have been up when my 20 turn smoked. I went off half cocked and got a Holmes 28 turn crawlmaster which is great for crawling but had no wheel speed to keep my tires clean on the trail.

frdtrkguy 11-04-2011 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by James888 (Post 3364208)
i went with the 13t cm and the 5th battery over a couple weeks it went up in smoke it was only the first pack of the day 2 cell 5000 30c 80/20 geared wraith what do u think i need to do was a bad motor or do i go brushless if so 17.5 or 13.5

80/20 seems kinda steep, maybe gear down and watch the temps. A 5000 mah battery provides alot of run time and time for heat to build up.

Solitaire 11-04-2011 07:45 PM

This is good info for us beginners. What would be even better is a range of gear ratios that compliment each type of motor.

I have a 16T CM and BRXL on order with HH (he's out of stock on the 13T) and I've also purchased several spur and pinion combinations that I think will work. It'd be nice to know up front which combination will provide motor longevity.

Harley 11-04-2011 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solitaire (Post 3364547)
This is good info for us beginners. What would be even better is a range of gear ratios that compliment each type of motor.

I have a 16T CM and BRXL on order with HH (he's out of stock on the 13T) and I've also purchased several spur and pinion combinations that I think will work. It'd be nice to know up front which combination will provide motor longevity.

Good call, I'll try and add that.

DiEzel 11-04-2011 07:59 PM

I didnt see the Pro4 3,300kv on there. Im a big believer it should be. It fits with no modification and has more power and crawlability then you would ever need.

madkawi650 11-04-2011 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solitaire (Post 3364547)
I've also purchased several spur and pinion combinations that I think will work. It'd be nice to know up front which combination will provide motor longevity.

What I always do is start low on my gearing and check motor and ESC temps a lot.. Then I up the pinion a couple teeth and run the same trail around my yard and check temps a lot again. I do this till I find a warm setup.. I always want a motor i can hold my finger on for more than 5 seconds after a kill a battery pack. A hot cup of coffee is 140* and you could not hold your finger in it for 5 seconds. This way I'm sure I'm under the 140 mark which is my personal safe point. Saves me carrying my temp gun with me.




Sent from my highly abused iPhone using Tapatalk

War Pig 11-04-2011 09:08 PM

I second that. The Pro4 is the perfect motor for the Wraith. I pulled my motor apart and coated the sensor with conformal coating and then sealed the can up with clear silicone. I ran it in 5" of water and mud the other day with no problems (also coated the RS Pro). With a 32 pitch 13 tooth pinion and 58 tooth spur it's perfect. On 3s it has amazing low end and will pull wheelies on command with a too speed in the high teens....now if you could just find the motor anywhere.

Adamsdad 11-04-2011 09:54 PM

Any good gearing suggestions for a 21T Torquemaster build on both 2s and 3s?

Harley 11-04-2011 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adamsdad (Post 3364755)
Any good gearing suggestions for a 21T Torquemaster build on both 2s and 3s?

That's fast, I'd suggest gearing down to help save the motor. I'd start with something like 84-87 spur and 14-16 pinion.

blacrubi 11-05-2011 11:25 AM

Smoked the stock motor this week and have decided to run the tekin rs pro and tekin pro4 3300kV. with this combo I'm also upgrading the trans gears and the spur/pinion. what would the spur/pinion gearing need to be to keep this motor happy, cool, and alive because that price tag is way up there. :ror: thanks for any input in advance.

War Pig 11-05-2011 12:03 PM

12/54 to 14/58 in 32 pitch works fine with the Pro4. You will have trouble getting it too hot in just about any crawling situation. I've run mine 3/4 throttle for 15 minutes without it getting over 140 degrees.

jaxandjokers 11-05-2011 08:31 PM

Another good combo is the brxl and a cobalt puller 7t running 18 54 gears really good top speed and still climbs like a monkey

Low_S-10 11-05-2011 08:36 PM

how well would a Castle Mamba Max & 5700kv combo with a 2-cell lipo work for crawling and speed? or would the Traxxas Velineon VXL system (the first one they came out with) be better? also what would be a good gear combo to run? i have both of the systems just laying around and was thinking about putting one of the in my wraith.

frdtrkguy 11-05-2011 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Low_S-10 (Post 3366116)
how well would a Castle Mamba Max & 5700kv combo with a 2-cell lipo work for crawling and speed? or would the Traxxas Velineon VXL system (the first one they came out with) be better? also what would be a good gear combo to run? i have both of the systems just laying around and was thinking about putting one of the in my wraith.


You will not be happy with either set-up for crawling.

Harley 11-05-2011 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Low_S-10 (Post 3366116)
how well would a Castle Mamba Max & 5700kv combo with a 2-cell lipo work for crawling and speed? also what would be a good gear combo to run? i have this combo laying around was thinking about putting it on my wraith.

That combo will flat out not work. Only good for speed and it's really just too fast even for that.

Low_S-10 11-06-2011 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harley (Post 3366305)
That combo will flat out not work. Only good for speed and it's really just too fast even for that.


what about the Traxxas Velineon VXL system?

Stburr91 11-06-2011 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Low_S-10 (Post 3366789)
what about the Traxxas Velineon VXL system?

It's pretty fast also, but there are a few people using them. Of course, it has no drag brake.

craddock35 11-06-2011 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Low_S-10 (Post 3366789)
what about the Traxxas Velineon VXL system?

It has no drag brake, in my opinion it is way to fast for a Wraith and will do nothing but cog on crawling. Read the first post that Harley put up. If you Want to run brushless and do any kind of crawling it needs to be "Sensored" non sensored will just cog on low end.

Harley 11-06-2011 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Low_S-10 (Post 3366789)
what about the Traxxas Velineon VXL system?

I ran it in mine, not a good choice either. You need a sensored system.

ebomb 11-06-2011 07:25 PM

what about this tekin pro4 3300, will i be able to use drag brake and also program it to crawler, forward to reverse? gonna be using with a mmp

Harley 11-06-2011 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ebomb (Post 3367751)
what about this tekin pro4 3300, will i be able to use drag brake and also program it to crawler, forward to reverse? gonna be using with a mmp

It's spendy but a really nice motor. I haven't ran it in mine but have driven another with it. Great motor, only downfall is price.

ebomb 11-06-2011 07:33 PM

so i can run it in crawler mode and it will have a good drag break, thanks

Harley 11-06-2011 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ebomb (Post 3367766)
so i can run it in crawler mode and it will have a good drag break, thanks

I am not 100% sure on the programming that was used but the drag brake was sufficient for crawling.

ebomb 11-06-2011 07:41 PM

thank u, im running a 11t crawl master right now and it seems to get a little hot and i like the top end and low end to so i dont want to change gearing to sacrafice what i have now. im running 18p 80 spur but gonna change to 32p if i buy the pro 4 motor

Rig Rocker 11-07-2011 11:08 AM

I recommend stock gear ratio of 80t / 20t with Team Brood 35t Apocalypse GT w/standup brushes. You will have plenty of part breaking torque, and still have plenty of speed. Great combination for crawling and wheelspeed "thumbsup" If you need more speed the 35t can go to about 23t pinion before starting to reach too hot of temps. That is under G6 type conditions where you mix speed with rock crawling and obstacles.

Of course I recommend using a Holmes waterproof BRXL. Despite what you think of the rivalry between team brood and hh, the motors and esc actually get along very well and are an awesome combination "thumbsup"

Harley 11-07-2011 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rig Rocker (Post 3368653)
I recommend stock gear ratio of 80t / 20t with Team Brood 35t Apocalypse GT w/standup brushes. You will have plenty of part breaking torque, and still have plenty of speed. Great combination for crawling and wheelspeed "thumbsup" If you need more speed the 35t can go to about 23t pinion before starting to reach too hot of temps. That is under G6 type conditions where you mix speed with rock crawling and obstacles.

Of course I recommend using a Holmes waterproof BRXL. Despite what you think of the rivalry between team brood and hh, the motors and esc actually get along very well and are an awesome combination "thumbsup"

I would suggest a faster motor with better reduction really. You would be much less likely to burn it up. With less than 4:1 reduction you are really going to be putting stress on that motor.

strap624 11-07-2011 12:27 PM

I'm running a HH handwound 27t. 17/87 gearing. Was working well till I got my RC4WD Baja claws. With the extra tire height I will need to drop the pinion down to a 14 or 15 tooth.


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