Any objective benefit to the 3-link panhard kit?

[fyrstormer]

My Wraith build has been stable for about a year now, and I'm happy with the way it performs, but the Vanquish 3-link panhard kit intrigues me. I could buy it and install it just for the heck of it, but relocating the servo would mess up my current scheme for weighting the front axle, so first I'd like to have some idea of whether there's actually any objective benefit to using the 3-link panhard kit. Does it improve articulation or handling vs. 4-link, or is it purely a cosmetic "scale" upgrade?

[firstpasstommy]

Purely cosmetic for the "scale look" not at all for performance!

[Soldat Vaillant]

it's purely cosmetic and it can sometimes limit articulation and travel

[fyrstormer]

Originally Posted by firstpasstommy

Purely cosmetic for the "scale look" not at all for performance!

That's a very enthusiastic response. Does the panhard kit actually reduce the Wraith's crawling/trailing capabilities in some way?

[micro racer]

The 3 link and panhard will help to eliminate bumpsteer with cms, so that could be considered a performance advantage. However, if the servo is on the axle a 3 link and panhard has no benefit.

[firstpasstommy]

Yes it does limit travel and articulation, the geometry is way off and there's more weight up high!

[tacocat]

Having useed both servo on axle and cms set up yes it does restrict travel and articulation a litte bit.
Is it enough to notice while driving? No not at all.

[tacocat]

Originally Posted by fyrstormer

That's a very enthusiastic response. Does the panhard kit actually reduce the Wraith's crawling/trailing capabilities in some way?

Nope

[fyrstormer]

Originally Posted by firstpasstommy

Yes it does limit travel and articulation, the geometry is way off and there's more weight up high!

Moving the servo higher does strike me as a minor disadvantage regarding center-of-gravity, and it would also limit my ability to stick weight on the front axle, so yeah, I can see it being a problem in both respects. Still, I'm intrigued by the panhard setup, so I'd be interested to know how it throws off the geometry of the suspension. I understand the front axle will move side-to-side slightly as the suspension compresses, but how much does that actually affect the vehicle's balance?

Also, does the panhard kit have any effect on torque-twist?

[micro racer]

You don't go to a 3 link and panhard setup for better performance; you go to CMS for looks and then 3 link and panhard to make it work better than CMS and 4 link.

Bottom line: 4 link is the better performing system. However, the inherent geometry problems caused by CMS are better fixed with a 3 link and panhard.


The axle only shifts a few millimeters, ideally, so balance shouldn't be affected.

It shouldn't affect torque twist either.

[fyrstormer]

I didn't know anyone even bothered with CMS without a panhard link. That can't possibly work, because there's nothing to ensure the steering knuckle is always the same distance away from the servo horn. The bumpsteer wouldn't just be annoying, it would be intolerable.

Well, now I kinda wish the panhard kit didn't look so cool, because I still kinda want one. Maybe someday I'll build a second Wraith and make different design choices for it.

Regarding your sigline, micro racer: A couple months ago I had to go to the optometrist to have an iron filing extracted from my right eye. They had to drill a (small) hole in my cornea to remove the rust. I was wearing regular glasses at the time and I thought that was good enough. I was wrong.

[Natedog]

Originally Posted by fyrstormer

My Wraith build has been stable for about a year now, and I'm happy with the way it performs, but the Vanquish 3-link panhard kit intrigues me. I could buy it and install it just for the heck of it, but relocating the servo would mess up my current scheme for weighting the front axle, so first I'd like to have some idea of whether there's actually any objective benefit to using the 3-link panhard kit. Does it improve articulation or handling vs. 4-link, or is it purely a cosmetic "scale" upgrade?

Originally Posted by Soldat Vaillant

it's purely cosmetic and it can sometimes limit articulation and travel

After running my Wraith for several years with servo on axle, I installed the VP CMS kit and hated it. I lost a little steering even with re-adjusted endpoints, it caused the front axle to lift the right front tire because of how the servo (Hitec HS-7950TH running 7.4 volts direct) pulls on the knuckle to steer. I looked and didn't really see a better way to set up the panhard etc. to make it work well, there just isn't much room to work with. Leave the servo on axle if you're into performance.

[ToeBall]

There is one potential benefit, and that's a bit more room for compression travel. Right now the thing limiting compression on my Wraith, front and rear, is that the servo hits the body. I haven't seen the CMS in real life so I can't say that it limits travel, but it does look like an okay design, so there may be some easy fix for it.


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[SPLATT]

Originally Posted by fyrstormer

I didn't know anyone even bothered with CMS without a panhard link. That can't possibly work, because there's nothing to ensure the steering knuckle is always the same distance away from the servo horn. The bumpsteer wouldn't just be annoying, it would be intolerable.

On the SCX10 it works ok as long as the tie rod and the drag link are as close to parallel as possible. I tried it on an Ascender with no luck.

[HahnsB2]

I don't regret the CMS/3link setup at all. You do lose a bit of steering power and and you get a bit of weird suspension behavior with the servo "pushing" or "pulling" on the axle rather than acting towards only steering, if that makes sense. It's a small tradeoff for the looks. Roommates Wraith is still 4link/axle mounted so I have a good rig to compare it to, it's just not enough for me to fret over.

[fyrstormer]

Yeah, I was looking more closely at the setup Vanquish offers, and it's disappointing they didn't try harder to make sure the panhard link and drag link are parallel at all times. That's kind of a requirement to avoid bump-steer, not sure why they halfassed it. I mean, their setup sure looks pretty, but if it doesn't work right...I'll just keep the stock setup then.

[HahnsB2]

No bumpsteer on mine


Keeping the steering parallel with the panhard will also depend on how long your servo horn is, ect.

[Natedog]

Originally Posted by ToeBall

There is one potential benefit, and that's a bit more room for compression travel. Right now the thing limiting compression on my Wraith, front and rear, is that the servo hits the body. I haven't seen the CMS in real life so I can't say that it limits travel, but it does look like an okay design, so there may be some easy fix for it.

Compression travel should not be an issue using servo on axle setup, check that servo and steering links are setup properly with servo on axle and adjust as needed so that nothing is hitting/rubbing.

With the VP CMS, front axle jacking around was terrible (and you lose a small amount of up travel), worst "upgrade" I ever bought.

[ToeBall]

Originally Posted by Natedog

Compression travel should not be an issue using servo on axle setup, check that servo and steering links are setup properly with servo on axle and adjust as needed so that nothing is hitting/rubbing.

With the VP CMS, front axle jacking around was terrible (and you lose a small amount of up travel), worst "upgrade" I ever bought.

I've got the HR skid with the upper links attached to the outermost holes to relieve driveshaft angle. I was running out of angle on the MIP shaft. I clocked the knuckles to compensate on steering but the servo gets tilted some in that configuration so it's even further forward. I thought about fabbing a custom mount to move it more horizontal and back, but it looks like it would interfere with the upper links at the top of the axle at that point.

[o0wiz0o]

I have had both the Vanquish CMS and now run the RC4WD CMS. I prefer the Rc4wd CMS. I prefer the way it mounts to the axle and the rigid servo mount that replaces the chassis/bumper mount. Another plus to a CMS is it keeps the servo out of the water so you can wade more. On Axle is definitely better though for ability. I also added Beef Tubes to the front to counter the weight shift.