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Old 05-25-2017, 12:12 PM   #1
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Default 4ws build - help needed

First and foremost, great forums, I have learnt a lot just by reading and going trough the past threads. Some stuff is truly inspiring.

I have picked up the Wraith Poison Spider about a couple of weeks ago and I have been having lots of fun with it. I am completely new to RC cars. I am sure the new truck would serve me well for a while but I can not help my self. I want to tinker and get the upgrades going.

I have a good idea of where I want to go with it and I am pretty set on a few main components. However, I am somewhat lost in other respect due to lack of experience. Now, I don't want to spent my money on wrong stuff and get parts which won't work together. So, I'd really appreciate if I could ask a question or two every now and then in this thread as the build gets along. I will, in return, take photos and post them here as it all comes together.

The goal is to build a truck which will be fun to drive and also capable. I have no intention of competing with it in any way nor do I see my self dragging into water or mud, at least not for time being.

I am pretty set on the new motor. I want to get the ROC412 3100kV with RX8 G3 ESC. I understand it is a powerful motor and that the entire drivetrain needs to be upgraded. I have my eye set on the Supershafty Bombproof transmission. This brings me to my first puzzle. It seems to come in different sizes and I have no clue which is which and what for. From what I know, the MIP driveshaft is the way to go but that too seems to come in different sizes.

Question:
Could you please direct me to the right parts, so it all works together?

I will wait to ask another question until such time I have this first one cleared. Thanks for your help.

PS: I did not mention but I will make this into 4ws setup and this might be far out, if I could put a dig on it too it would be a dream but I do not want to sacrifice on the quality of the main components to get it in
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Old 05-25-2017, 12:44 PM   #2
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Default 4ws build - help needed

OK first I like the thought process. Very similar to where I went . If you are thinking that motor esc combination , I will tell you I chose a Puller Pro and BLE from Holmes instead. Much more torque, will work well with a SS bombproof. As far as outputs 5mm or 6mm. I'm running the 5mm, which hooks straight up to the standard Wraith MIP shafts. If you want more strength, the 6mm is the other choice, but will need 6mm mip ends to work .

Send Mike a pm or email at SS, he can also guide you.

4ws ? Get your wallet out, if you want the strength a second servo, cvds, and strengthen the axle housing ......
I had 4ws on my R1, as it didn't steer without.

My wraith steers fine, dig would be nice, but the weak link in the drivetrain.


My truck needs a bigger servo, which is in production , otherwise a dependable beast, strong and tough

Hang up and Drive
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Last edited by mikemcE; 05-25-2017 at 12:47 PM.
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Old 05-25-2017, 03:33 PM   #3
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Default Re: 4ws build - help needed

Thank you very much for taking the time to reply. You shone a light to where was dark before and I am beginning to think I will be able to pull it off. It's funny, few days ago, I knew absolutely nothing and about anything and it is just about making sense now.

I wrote to Mike at SS to see whether he can get 6mm transmission together but if you run 5mm it must be alright for me too. I quite like the idea of tinkering but not to a silly degree at the moment. Perhaps later in the game once I know where is left and where is right

Would you care to tell me which motor you recommend out of the range? I'd like to do some further research.

The reason I like ROC412 is because it seems to be widely recommended and I've seen it in some builds here on the forums and the other bit is that I can get it here in the UK which makes my life much easier.

I know this is going to cost a bit but it's fine. I rather get nice quality bits than cheap out and then be peed off with it.

I am thinking of getting two Hitec 7990's for it and I wonder whether the RX8 G3 8A BEC would do the trick if I happen to go for the ESC. I had a look at the spec and it seems to say the no load draw is about 0.5A but stall draws 9A. Now, times two for two servos and we are at 18A. I appreciate this is more than 8A on the BEC but would such scenario actually happen and mean anything?

Anyway, getting excited and starting another question.

Thank you for the advise

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikemcE View Post
OK first I like the thought process. Very similar to where I went . If you are thinking that motor esc combination , I will tell you I chose a Puller Pro and BLE from Holmes instead. Much more torque, will work well with a SS bombproof. As far as outputs 5mm or 6mm. I'm running the 5mm, which hooks straight up to the standard Wraith MIP shafts. If you want more strength, the 6mm is the other choice, but will need 6mm mip ends to work .

Send Mike a pm or email at SS, he can also guide you.

4ws ? Get your wallet out, if you want the strength a second servo, cvds, and strengthen the axle housing ......
I had 4ws on my R1, as it didn't steer without.

My wraith steers fine, dig would be nice, but the weak link in the drivetrain.


My truck needs a bigger servo, which is in production , otherwise a dependable beast, strong and tough

Hang up and Drive
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Old 05-25-2017, 03:41 PM   #4
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Default 4ws build - help needed

The Puller Pro 2700 will be sweet, I'm running the 3500 for a bit more wheelspeed


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Last edited by mikemcE; 05-25-2017 at 07:09 PM.
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Old 05-25-2017, 04:01 PM   #5
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Default Re: 4ws build - help needed

My thinking is like yours. Don't skimp on the cheapies b/c you'll be buying it again later.

But you will be fine with 5mm outputs. I have 3 rigs running the 5mm and 1 running the 6mm and they all get bashed to hell and no issues with either.

I also have not had an issue with the stock Axial WB8 HD drive shafts either.

MIPs are stronger, and I have ran them for a little bit on one of my rigs, but ended up switching out b/c of the added noise they cause.

I also run the same motor as mike and it's definately a beast! Excellent torque and speed! I don't have any experience with Tekin, but hear they are very nice as well.


For Servo, if you wanted the strongest at a "reasonable" price, look at the Savos 2290SG.
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Old 05-25-2017, 04:30 PM   #6
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Default 4ws build - help needed

I chose the Holmes over the roc3100 for one reason. Cost. I was running a 17.5 tekin gen3 with my BLE in my Gmade R1. That motor although smooth didn't have any torque being a two pole. I run a Tekin 4x4HD 3000 in my Yeti and it is a beast, the Puller Pro has all that in a smaller can, and cheaper . Simple no brainer here and I am totally happy with it !

I'm waiting on another ProModeler 420 incredible for the price.


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Old 05-25-2017, 08:23 PM   #7
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Default 4ws build - help needed

I did just look up those servos...... Wowsers!!!
Unless comp crawling, can't see that much needed. look at the Holmes servos, no bec needed, run right off lipo 3s .and 500oz
My trucks servo is light by about 100 oz..... on high grip rock or dirt servo does not give full throw, weightless or on hard surface perfect


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Old 05-26-2017, 03:19 AM   #8
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Default Re: 4ws build - help needed

Perfect, this has huge value to me, thank you. I reckon I will stick with the 5mm setup. If it works for you, it will work for me.

The servo looks good too but it is not a huge cost difference to the Hitec and it looks more expensive than the HH one which I am very tempted by now.

I am curious, how is the HH motor for crawling then? Is there any cogging? This is part of the reason I am so set on ROC412 with RX8 because they get great reviews and exhibit no cogging.

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Old* View Post
My thinking is like yours. Don't skimp on the cheapies b/c you'll be buying it again later.

But you will be fine with 5mm outputs. I have 3 rigs running the 5mm and 1 running the 6mm and they all get bashed to hell and no issues with either.

I also have not had an issue with the stock Axial WB8 HD drive shafts either.

MIPs are stronger, and I have ran them for a little bit on one of my rigs, but ended up switching out b/c of the added noise they cause.

I also run the same motor as mike and it's definately a beast! Excellent torque and speed! I don't have any experience with Tekin, but hear they are very nice as well.


For Servo, if you wanted the strongest at a "reasonable" price, look at the Savos 2290SG.
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Old 05-26-2017, 03:25 AM   #9
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Default Re: 4ws build - help needed

The Hitec servos look great, right?! They cost a bit more but not too much more. I really like the HH servos though because they can run of 3S directly. It could be a game changer. Thank you for pointing it out to me. Like the other post, this is invaluable to me, so huge thanks.

I still want to understand the limitations though, so I can make my final choice. Would anyone be able to tell me whether I can run two Hithec 7990 for 4ws with Tekin RX8 G3 which has 8A limit to its BEC? My understanding is that it would run but what happens if the limit is reached when the wheels get stuck? I suppose an external BEC is an option then to give more power but that is yet another expense and more wiring at which point HH servos make lot more sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikemcE View Post
I did just look up those servos...... Wowsers!!!
Unless comp crawling, can't see that much needed. look at the Holmes servos, no bec needed, run right off lipo 3s .and 500oz
My trucks servo is light by about 100 oz..... on high grip rock or dirt servo does not give full throw, weightless or on hard surface perfect


Hang up and Drive
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Old 05-26-2017, 09:54 AM   #10
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Default Re: 4ws build - help needed

Quote:
Originally Posted by kohout View Post
Perfect, this has huge value to me, thank you. I reckon I will stick with the 5mm setup. If it works for you, it will work for me.

The servo looks good too but it is not a huge cost difference to the Hitec and it looks more expensive than the HH one which I am very tempted by now.

I am curious, how is the HH motor for crawling then? Is there any cogging? This is part of the reason I am so set on ROC412 with RX8 because they get great reviews and exhibit no cogging.

I don't have any cogging issues on any of the HH motors I have. (I have the PullerPro Sensored Brushless 540 3500KV WP in all 4 rigs). I also run them with the Castle Mamba Monster X. It is extremely smooth, and no issues for crawling.

The HH SHV500 servos are nice. They are kinda weak at the pin, but they are either about to or already have redesigned the interior housing to make them stronger.
The thing I like about the HH servos are they are soooo quiet! The Savox 2290 is pretty loud, but that's the tradeoff with this beast!
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Old 05-27-2017, 11:55 AM   #11
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Default Re: 4ws build - help needed

I have just returned from a little soft trailing run in the woods. I am really having a good time. Just like being a kid again

I have a confession to make. I have made an "U" turn, I've changed my mind. That is thanks to you *Old* & mikemcE. I have done a lots of reading up on the HH gear you both recommended and I decided to go that way. I am very happy with this because they do seem to be a great quality bits, because they will come all from one place ,because I will be supporting a small business and because of so many other reasons. From a technical standpoint, being able to hook up the servos directly to battery makes a huge sense.

It's funny, I was convinced that I was going with Tekin and now I know that HH is going to work much better for me.

I will be ordering the Puller Pro 540 and I am almost convinced it is going to be the 3500kV version. mikemcE, you suggested the 2700vK as being sweet, would you tell me why? I've seen videos of incredibly well controlled crawling with the 3500kV and I like the idea of slightly higher speed when I am going to feel like mischiefing a little.

I will order the Trailmaster BLE PRO ESC and the two 12V SHV500 servos for 4ws.

It will achieve a fairly substantial saving for me which I can use for other parts, so it's great.


This brings me to my today's questions, the gearing.
I thought I would be going 56/12 with the 3300kV ROC412 and I am very curious of what you run on yours? Also, where to look for those parts. This is the subject I am most lost with as I have not got a clue. I know that I will want to try to mix it up later just for fun and to see what it can do, but I need find a good starting point now.

Also, what about the gearing on the axels? I think I will need to swap them out for something stronger and I know that they can be over and under the stock and many combinations of those. Again, I will definitely mess about with it once I build it and have more experience under my belt, but I want to get to a happy medium to start.

Once I decide whether 2700kV or 3500kV I will start ordering the parts, not long to go now and the plan is really taking shape.

Thank you both for your help, I don't think I would pull it off without you or if I did I would end up with a mess.

I really enjoyed watching this video showing the Puller Pro with 4ws, pretty much the setup I want to get together. I was really surprised to see how much crawlability the 4ws brings.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4HDU412FuQ
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Old 05-27-2017, 12:13 PM   #12
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Default 4ws build - help needed

I have the 3500 geared 56/12.
Insane speed and torque, I have my expo set at 60%- to slow it down a bit, totally controllable at crawl. With the RR slipper /spur I couldn't get a 10t to fit and mesh.... might have been I was hurrying but will try again, I think that would make the 3500 perfect. Controllable wheelies at will, great for jumping onto a ledge

I'm still playing with expo and curves, and power. I'm having a gas and every once in a while I learn something else. Don't
misunderstand me , I love the 3500, but think for easier slow speed the 2700 is better. My tires are more rock oriented than speed and as such I am underdriving the rear only, front stock ratio, both ends HD gears from axial on incision lockers.

https://youtu.be/nTwvMt7EQKs


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Last edited by mikemcE; 05-27-2017 at 12:18 PM.
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Old 05-27-2017, 02:11 PM   #13
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Default Re: 4ws build - help needed

Thank you mikemcE for all your help.

I like "insane", so I reckon 3500kV it is I reckon that taming it should be manageable with the right settings just like you say.

I will look into sourcing the pinions on spurs and I can get ordering.

Also, thank you for sharing the video. It is a little hard to see from the tucks point of view but I can make up the easy with which it is traversing those rocks.

I'll be back tomorrow with another query. I hope you won't get sick of me.

Have a good one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikemcE View Post
I have the 3500 geared 56/12.
Insane speed and torque, I have my expo set at 60%- to slow it down a bit, totally controllable at crawl. With the RR slipper /spur I couldn't get a 10t to fit and mesh.... might have been I was hurrying but will try again, I think that would make the 3500 perfect. Controllable wheelies at will, great for jumping onto a ledge

I'm still playing with expo and curves, and power. I'm having a gas and every once in a while I learn something else. Don't
misunderstand me , I love the 3500, but think for easier slow speed the 2700 is better. My tires are more rock oriented than speed and as such I am underdriving the rear only, front stock ratio, both ends HD gears from axial on incision lockers.

https://youtu.be/nTwvMt7EQKs


Hang up and Drive
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Old 05-27-2017, 02:21 PM   #14
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Default Re: 4ws build - help needed

That is my first video with GoPro. The rip rap also moves when driving , but the motor has gobs of go. For speed a 14 or 15 would work well, think it would also crawl well with this motor / esc


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Old 05-28-2017, 09:53 AM   #15
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Default Re: 4ws build - help needed

So, I have suffered my first breakage with the Poison Spider today. One of the wheel hubs got stripped and the dog bone got lost. Well, I have a little crack in the body work by the front fender because of the front wheels binding there.

This is actually pretty good considering how much driving I have done already and the number of times I have hit something.

I have ordered the stock replacements just so I can have it in order but I want to get started with the upgrade parts. The upgrade is my little treat for a work thing which I am about to get tied in, so I will start with ordering this coming week. Unfortunately, number of parts will be coming form all over the globe, so i expect it to take a while.


My question today relates to the universal axles by VP. From what I have found, they are the way to go. However, they are incredibly expensive, so I want to make sure I am doing the rights thing.

I am going to do 4ws on my truck as I said. Does it mean that I effectively replicate the whole of the front axle at the rear and only flip it around by 180 degrees so the shaft is facing the right way? Am I missing anything? My question really is, should I get two of the axles? And, does the pack contain the spool/locker? It seems to show it but it is nowhere any any description I have seen so far.
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Old 05-30-2017, 09:57 AM   #16
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Default Re: 4ws build - help needed

Quote:
Originally Posted by kohout View Post

This brings me to my today's questions, the gearing.
I thought I would be going 56/12 with the 3300kV ROC412 and I am very curious of what you run on yours? Also, where to look for those parts. This is the subject I am most lost with as I have not got a clue. I know that I will want to try to mix it up later just for fun and to see what it can do, but I need find a good starting point now.

Also, what about the gearing on the axels? I think I will need to swap them out for something stronger and I know that they can be over and under the stock and many combinations of those. Again, I will definitely mess about with it once I build it and have more experience under my belt, but I want to get to a happy medium to start.

In the Wraith, I'm running 56/11 with the 3500KV. I'm running 56/12 in my other rigs. Both are very smooth low end and I can hardly tell the difference when going slow. Maybe can tell with some top end speed.

Like Mike, I'm also using the Robinson Slipper and Pinion.

For the Axles, I'm running the Axial HD Under Drive 43/13, gears for the rear and the standard 38/13 for the front. It was recommended to me a while back. Helps with torque twist and allows the front to "pull" the rear, which can help with turning.
If anything, I recommend the setup above or the UD 43/13 gears both front and rear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kohout
My question today relates to the universal axles by VP. From what I have found, they are the way to go. However, they are incredibly expensive, so I want to make sure I am doing the rights thing.

I am going to do 4ws on my truck as I said. Does it mean that I effectively replicate the whole of the front axle at the rear and only flip it around by 180 degrees so the shaft is facing the right way? Am I missing anything? My question really is, should I get two of the axles? And, does the pack contain the spool/locker? It seems to show it but it is nowhere any any description I have seen so far.
I don't have any experience with the VP Unis, but so far I haven't had any issues with the Axial Unis. I've broken a lot of other shit, but these are still going strong in two rigs that run them.
I think they're half the price of the VP? I do like the fact that the VPs are rebuildable, but I can't ignore how good the Axials been to me thus far.

Good luck!
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Old 05-30-2017, 10:16 AM   #17
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Default Re: 4ws build - help needed

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Old* View Post
I don't have any experience with the VP Unis, but so far I haven't had any issues with the Axial Unis. I've broken a lot of other shit, but these are still going strong in two rigs that run them.
I think they're half the price of the VP? I do like the fact that the VPs are rebuildable, but I can't ignore how good the Axials been to me thus far.

Good luck!


Same here, I do run Dlux titanium in the Yeti


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Old 05-30-2017, 03:55 PM   #18
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Default Re: 4ws build - help needed

That's great, cheers. I had a look at getting RR pinion and it is a nightmare in the UK and I'd quite like to avoid having yet another international shipping. I look at their website and there is no shop there. Would you say the RR pinion is superior to say Gmade which I can get easily? If so, how do you go about getting some? Do I need to phone the company up to order?

I actually decided to go with the standard and under drive all by my self the other day, so I am pleased to see my conclusion validated. Thank you for that.

I am going to order the VP axles and keep the one I have as a spare.

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Old* View Post
In the Wraith, I'm running 56/11 with the 3500KV. I'm running 56/12 in my other rigs. Both are very smooth low end and I can hardly tell the difference when going slow. Maybe can tell with some top end speed.

Like Mike, I'm also using the Robinson Slipper and Pinion.

For the Axles, I'm running the Axial HD Under Drive 43/13, gears for the rear and the standard 38/13 for the front. It was recommended to me a while back. Helps with torque twist and allows the front to "pull" the rear, which can help with turning.
If anything, I recommend the setup above or the UD 43/13 gears both front and rear.



I don't have any experience with the VP Unis, but so far I haven't had any issues with the Axial Unis. I've broken a lot of other shit, but these are still going strong in two rigs that run them.
I think they're half the price of the VP? I do like the fact that the VPs are rebuildable, but I can't ignore how good the Axials been to me thus far.

Good luck!
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Old 05-30-2017, 04:01 PM   #19
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Default Re: 4ws build - help needed

I have an exiting announcement to make. I have already ordered all the HH gear, the bombproof transmission and the MIP shafts as well as a few small other bits and pieces. I also ordered a new transmitter which I am super keen to play with. I still have not fully completed my list of parts but I am very nearly there. I basically have to choose the wheels which I thing will be VP OMFs with Rip saws. I have not quite decided on their make up and I am too tired after a long day to go trough it now.

There is a lot more ordering to be done and I will get on with it over next few days and then the long wait for it all to arrive. I suppose I could do certain bits as they come but most of it will have to come together at the same time.

I have a question for you mikemcE. What servo horn should I look for? I have ordered the recommended HH servos and I will have VP titanium links coming to me. I am completely lost on this one. Thank you.
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Old 05-30-2017, 04:15 PM   #20
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Default Re: 4ws build - help needed

I use the axial alloy ones, VP also makes them I like the clamping type



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