U.S. Tax System explained in Beer

[Duuuuuuuude]

Originally Posted by JeremyH

How do you figure? If everyone is paying the same rate when they buy stuff, then how are they taxed differently?

Because a family consumes more than a single person, they would pay more. Same percentage, higher amount.

Which is fair.

[JeremyH]

Originally Posted by Duuuuuuuude

Because a family consumes more than a single person, they would pay more. Same percentage, higher amount.

Which is fair.

Yep, we both agree on that. A flat percentage is exactly what Paul is advocating for.....which is exactly what is given when a consumer purchases an item. I personally like the ability to control my own taxes and the fact that we'll be gaining income from drug dealers, illegals and all others who don't report their income.

[RANOVRU]

Originally Posted by JeremyH

Yep, we both agree on that. A flat percentage is exactly what Paul is advocating for.....which is exactly what is given when a consumer purchases an item. I personally like the ability to control my own taxes and the fact that we'll be gaining income from drug dealers, illegals and all others who don't report their income.

Best idea ever.

I dont see how anyone could say that sales tax isnt fair across the board.

Everyone has to buy stuff sooner or later. The "modesty" proposal would fall on deaf ears for most people, but for those that were raised in modesty it would be really nice to have to "controlling" aspect of it.

[jason]

Originally Posted by Fishmaxx

U.S. Tax System explained in Beer

Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to $100.
If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:

The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
The fifth would pay $1.
The sixth would pay $3.
The seventh would pay $7.
The eighth would pay $12.
The ninth would pay $18.
The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.

So, that's what they decided to do. The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve. 'Since you are all such good customers,' he said, 'I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily beer by $20. 'Drinks for the ten now cost just $80.The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes so the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free. But what about the other six men - the paying customers?

How could they divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his 'fair share?' They realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer. So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay.

And so the fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings)..
The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33%savings).
The seventh now pay $5 instead of $7 (28%savings).
The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).
The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 ( 22% savings).
The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).

Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to drink for free.

But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings...

'I only got a dollar out of the $20,' declared the sixth man.
He pointed to the tenth man,' but he got $10! ''Yeah, that's right,' exclaimed the fifth man.
'I only saved a dollar, too.. It's unfair that he got ten times more than I! ''That's true!!' shouted the seventh man.
'Why should he get $10 back when I got only two?
The wealthy get all the breaks!
''Wait a minute,' yelled the first four men in unison. 'We didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!
'The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up. The next night the tenth man ( the richest) didn't show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn't have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!

And that, boys and girls, journalists and college professors, is how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore. In fact, they might start drinking overseas where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.

Fishy, I'd like to add this to your little analogy.

When the guys first started going to the bar the bar owner would take $40 of their bill as his salary, he'd take $20 and invest that in a great bouncer at the front door that kept the people from the "other side of the tracks" out of the bar, because they'd usually just come into the bar and expect to bum cigarettes and beer off of the customers. He'd then take the other $40 and resupply his stock, and make improvements to his bar.

When he lowered the customers bill to $80, he kept his $40 salary, he kept paying $40 to upkeep the bar and restock, but he let the bouncer go.

Now everytime the guys go to the bar it's full of people from the other side of the tracks begging and stealing like they are owed something. The customers are very annoyed by this, but the bar owner doesn't seem to mind. He says it's alright for these guys to sneak in here because they are just looking for a better bar for themselves, the bars when they are from are not nice at all.

[Reflection]

Originally Posted by Duuuuuuuude

The main difference is that the consumption tax will include those that work here illegally, and those that dodge payroll and other taxes. You can't not buy stuff at some point.

That would without a doubt bring in billions of tax dollars.

Originally Posted by Duuuuuuuude

The thing I like about the consumption tax is that it would reign in our crazy consumerism. It would make you stop to think about what and how you are spending your money.

Originally Posted by rock hard

????

I alreadt stated how and why

how is becouse 2 people earing the same amount are taxed differently based on thier dependants

now more dependants= less withholding

under consuptions more dependants= more withholdings.
why is this?? becouse a person with more dep. will undoubtably NEED to spend more of thier income on others than themselfs.

the single person wont
it is so simple to understand hopw that hurts fasmilies.
its not about being moddesst
but on a side not
its not the gov job to entice people to be moddest now is it???
especieall y by determing a tax code on ot.

the only fair tax is a flat,is its not fl;lat then it taxes people defferently
and that simply isnt fair.

If a family wants to save on taxes they pay based on what they spend....

Grown a garden, raise some animals.....DO WORK! If we had to or wanted to, we could probably raise 85% of what we buy at our local grocery store right in our back yard. The 15% that's left, is it really needed or is it just luxury items? That would put a huge dent in what we would pay in taxes.

Shop smart.... Instead of buying fancy name brand clothes, spending thousands every year, buy the material and make your own clothes. It'd be cheaper, so therefore you'd pay less tax.

I'm quite certain if a family really wanted to save on taxes, there's allot of other ways to cut corners. No doubt it wouldn't be as luxurious and easy as we have it today, but then again, we wouldn't see as many lazy couch potato's as we do today. You wanna save, get out there and do something for yourself rather than just buying everything.

[ThinkTank]

Originally Posted by Reflection

Shop smart.... Instead of buying fancy name brand clothes, spending thousands every year, buy the material and make your own clothes. It'd be cheaper, so therefore you'd pay less tax.

Heck, just go to thrift stores. You can find certain stuff for cheap and if you don't no loss. Its worth the same as the sweatshop crap the mall spews out. People should be taxed for being lazy bastards.

[JeremyH]

Originally Posted by Reflection

If a family wants to save on taxes they pay based on what they spend....

That's exactly right! It will promote good consumerism and would have probably prevented the financial crisis that our nation is currently in.....if not prevented, it certainly would have helped curb the crisis. Instead of people buying everything to keep up with the Jones's and having to put it on credit since they dont actually have the cash, people would be living modestly to help lower their taxes. Those who wanted to spend could, but knowing that they would be paying the tax.

Right now, NOBODY in this country has a choice.....it's either pay, or go to jail.

[Reflection]

Originally Posted by ThinkTank

People should be taxed for being lazy bastards.

I'd vote for the lazy bastard tax..... That would bring in TRILLIONS.

[rock hard]

Originally Posted by Reflection

That would without a doubt bring in billions of tax dollars.







If a family wants to save on taxes they pay based on what they spend....

Grown a garden, raise some animals.....DO WORK! If we had to or wanted to, we could probably raise 85% of what we buy at our local grocery store right in our back yard. The 15% that's left, is it really needed or is it just luxury items? That would put a huge dent in what we would pay in taxes.

Shop smart.... Instead of buying fancy name brand clothes, spending thousands every year, buy the material and make your own clothes. It'd be cheaper, so therefore you'd pay less tax.

I'm quite certain if a family really wanted to save on taxes, there's allot of other ways to cut corners. No doubt it wouldn't be as luxurious and easy as we have it today, but then again, we wouldn't see as many lazy couch potato's as we do today. You wanna save, get out there and do something for yourself rather than just buying everything.

You guys are great and I love you
but you guys are dead wrong

You or the goverment has no buisness curbing my spending.
You guys are so sure its gonna be good for the country

Guess what

YOUR WRONG

I work for a buisness
as do most others I know

now you plan to give people an insentive to NOT BUY
thats great for buisness

what hurts buisness in turn hurts its employess


So besides that FACT that the goverment should tax FAIRLY
all people equally.

There is another HUGE problem with a consuption tax

HHHHHHMMMMMMMM?????????


what about all the life saving of seniors,soon to be seniors and everyone else.

I have a fair saving,I have ALREADY paid taxes on that money.
Now we start a consumption tax,all dollars that have already been taxed would be taxed AGAIN once spent

so alot of americans who have saved would have been double taxed

also,you think that under the table crap is bad now
jusy wait till such a tax code is ever inacted.
people will be doing all they can to aviod it.

The black market for goods would see a BOOM in buisness


Now another thing,I could work,save,work,save ect ecgt ect

then go to another country and spend my money

Wait,illegals apready send theiort money out of country

so go ahead,work save and send it home to help YOUR country

FREE OF TAX

I know yu guys are smart,I think maybe you already like the idea,and are then not truelly taking in to account how wrong it is on principle

YOU AND OR GOVERMENT HAVE NO BUISNESS OR RIGHT TO
LEVY FEDERAL TAXES BASED ON A PERSONS WANTS.


Oh one more thing

Taxes dont go down,they only go up

so if you get paid now and pay your taxes before you invest
you will pay less in taxes than if you save and pay the tax later

Like ira's
I pay my taxers befor I open the ira,I dont use it as a shelter,so I only pay tax on its gains.

Now my pops has alwys used the ira as a shelter
now he is paying a higher tax rate than he would have if he had paid the tax when he opened the ira.

lots of those iras was opend when he had me as a dependant
now he has no dependants and the tax rate has increased to boot

Open your eyes guys,the flat tax is your friend,its simple its fair.
it treats everyone the same,doesnt matter @#$%&*! we all would get taxed..........

EQUALLY

Ofcourse I have no doubt a consumption tax would never pass,so to me its all smoke
But I want you guys to knoe its downfalls

its not the best way to tax
the flat tax is the best way

I tell you what
tell me why consuption is more FAIR than a flat tax

like it or not,the flat tax is the FAIREST way to tax

[ThinkTank]

Originally Posted by rock hard

You guys are great and I love you
but you guys are dead wrong

You or the goverment has no buisness curbing my spending.
You guys are so sure its gonna be good for the country

No shit Captain Sherlock. I don't care if its fair, helpful to the country or not.
Most of the money generated goes overseas or to the World Bank. If people start hoarding money it would be the best thing for Americans. Also the poor hundred billion dollar CEOs won't be able to wipe their butt with silk. Oh the inhumanity!

[JeremyH]

Originally Posted by rock hard

like it or not,the flat tax is the FAIREST way to tax

In your opinion...

Originally Posted by rock hard

So besides that FACT that the goverment should tax FAIRLY
all people equally.

How does Flat Tax include EVERYONE? It cant. Until it does, then it is NOT fair.

Fair tax is applied equally to EVERYONE. No matter how you gather your income....legally OR illegally.....it includes EVERYONE.

Originally Posted by rock hard

Open your eyes guys,the flat tax is your friend,its simple its fair.
it treats everyone the same

Yes, everyone EXCEPT those who dont claim their income.

Originally Posted by rock hard

Wait,illegals apready send theiort money out of country

so go ahead,work save and send it home to help YOUR country

FREE OF TAX

And how is that different than the current system? How would it be different if a flat tax were applied? It would be the same. However, Illegals are not the only people who would be allowed to do this....everyone would.....EQUALLY.

Originally Posted by rock hard

Ofcourse I have no doubt a consumption tax would never pass,so to me its all smoke

All of this is smoke. A flat tax will never pass......fair tax will never pass.....the tax laws will never change with our current political system. The people who run this country reap too many benefits from the current system to want it to change to a new system.

[Mr.Slave]

realy theres 4 guys that drink free beer?!?!
**** i must be doing ALOT better than i thought...

[Reflection]

Originally Posted by JeremyH

How does Flat Tax include EVERYONE? It cant. Until it does, then it is NOT fair.

Fair tax is applied equally to EVERYONE. No matter how you gather your income....legally OR illegally.....it includes EVERYONE.

A ton of people come to this country because they can get away with not paying taxes and reap the benefits that tax paying citizens pay for dearly. There's also a ton of scamming douche bags that make a damn good living, but yet don't pay any taxes.

How many of you guys enjoy paying taxes knowing a big chunk of it goes to those that SCAM the system, don't pay any taxes and reap the benefits?


Whatever the hell you wanna call it.... make EVERYONE pay taxes. That is truly fair and I think we be surprised at how that would effect the economy today.

[paintballer9876]

Originally Posted by jason

Fishy, I'd like to add this to your little analogy.

When the guys first started going to the bar the bar owner would take $40 of their bill as his salary, he'd take $20 and invest that in a great bouncer at the front door that kept the people from the "other side of the tracks" out of the bar, because they'd usually just come into the bar and expect to bum cigarettes and beer off of the customers. He'd then take the other $40 and resupply his stock, and make improvements to his bar.

When he lowered the customers bill to $80, he kept his $40 salary, he kept paying $40 to upkeep the bar and restock, but he let the bouncer go.

Now everytime the guys go to the bar it's full of people from the other side of the tracks begging and stealing like they are owed something. The customers are very annoyed by this, but the bar owner doesn't seem to mind. He says it's alright for these guys to sneak in here because they are just looking for a better bar for themselves, the bars when they are from are not nice at all.

actually he keeps the bouncer and borrows money from the bar across the street to pay for it.

[Duuuuuuuude]

Originally Posted by rock hard

You or the goverment has no buisness curbing my spending.

YOU AND OR GOVERMENT HAVE NO BUISNESS OR RIGHT TO
LEVY FEDERAL TAXES BASED ON A PERSONS WANTS.

now you plan to give people an insentive to NOT BUY
thats great for buisness

Lets do some simple math, again.

How much of your paycheck goes to taxes right now? 15%? 20%? How much sales tax do you pay when you go shopping? 6%? 8%? 10%?

We'll say best case is 21% total, worst case is 30% when everything is said and done.

Now, how will doing away with all that and imposing a flat 25% consumption tax be worse?

It would be if you were in the 21% group, but we're only talking $4 out of every $100 that you make. Is that enough to keep you from buying that banana hammock you've been eying at the Wal-Mart? Probably not, though we're all hoping it does.

If you are in the 30% group, things just got cheaper. Hoo-ray! Banana hammocks for everyone!

Saying its not fair that a single person would pay less is like saying its not fair that a single person can ride a 50mpg motorcycle to get around town and have a Corvette in the garage, while you've got to drive a 12mpg 5000 lb steel brick on wheels because you've got kids to haul and your garage is full of crap you haven't unboxed since the last time you moved.

You make your choices in life and are responsible for funding them. That's about as fair as it gets.

[rock hard]

I pay roughly 50 % of my income in taxes right now

that is fed,ss med. state,school,regestration,sales,ect.


The idea that you are willing to allow no withholdings aon earning to stop
people who work under the table is a joke

Ok,so to get those few who do work under the table............( I have worked construction all my life,I have worked with,for and know current illegals None of the guys I know wotk inder the table.the # of people working under the table is minimal The rerason is companies big and small like to deduct that money from thier own taxes.)...........to pay taxes,we will let everyone have an opportunity to earn without tax,and send that money out of our economy to be saved/spent elsewhere.

I tell you what,out of country buisness would go up.But ours would suffer


Now your going to allow people to work free of taxation????

what a joke,the goverment will never,ever do that

First off have you ever heard of the old saying 1 in the hand is worth 2 in the bush.

So the goverment will allow you to work free of taxes.
Now instead of only the under the table people getting be without taxes.

All workers can try to fingure out a way around it.

You will have people working,and spending very little
then hoarding that money to send out of the country.


+ you never countered my arguement of people who have money that has alreaddy been taxed that is in some form of savings,

All that money would be double taxed.


I cant believe that so many people think that a fair taxe is based on ones consuption.

A single income family would pay out more in taxes than a 2 income family

a single person would pay even less.


I have homeschooled for 6 yrs.

I pay roughly 1500 in books and tuition
Would I pay a consumption tax on the books???
supplies????


what about clothing???

This type of code will never be used.

But those who think for some reason that it would be benificial to our
country,families,children.

Your living in a wonderland.

So children will do without more,so dad can keep more $$$

Mom will live without that makup to save some $$$$

This would hurt poor americans with family most
it would hurt buisness and there for its workers would suffer.

people would be double taxed on previously saved income.

more money would leave our ecenomy

Your fair tax has holes all in it





Now what hole is in a flat taxx

People who work under the table....and what else??????
Come on guys,you are all smarter tahn to fall for a sales pitch.

[rock hard]

Originally Posted by Duuuuuuuude

Saying its not fair that a single person would pay less is like saying its not fair that a single person can ride a 50mpg motorcycle to get around town and have a Corvette in the garage, while you've got to drive a 12mpg 5000 lb steel brick on wheels because you've got kids to haul and your garage is full of crap you haven't unboxed since the last time you moved.

You make your choices in life and are responsible for funding them. That's about as fair as it gets.

No,the goverment deciding that some people can or should pay a different
% of tax on thier income over another person is what is currently unfair
and unfair with a consumption tax


only when ever dollar earned is taxed an equal amount is it truelly a fair tax

every wage earner paying the same % of tax per dollar earned for every single dollar earned..

it simply doesnt get any simpler and it sure cant get more fair than that.

[rock hard]

Originally Posted by ThinkTank

No shit Captain Sherlock. I don't care if its fair, helpful to the country or not.
Most of the money generated goes overseas or to the World Bank. If people start hoarding money it would be the best thing for Americans. Also the poor hundred billion dollar CEOs won't be able to wipe their butt with silk. Oh the inhumanity!

I myself prefer my son not live in a country where he is penalised for using his money

I prefer toys not rise in cost,or bikes.

some kids,families will have to do without to save moreso than now.
why??? cuz a earners taxes are based on what they spend,not what the earn

so more people who are not so well of will find it even harder to provide.

and with people hoarding money ( really great for americans)
there will be less commerce,less jobs,more unemployment
\
\
\Look our economy grows becouse of commerce,not the lack of

people open buisness and hire others as a result of commerce
not a lack of.

some of You sound like you want to teach/force/pursuade others to save.

Its not your job to purshuad anyone,nor is it the goverments job.
We are a free country that has thrived on a system of open commmerce.
Only when goverment gets involved does real curruption and failure result
As the goverment is above the law and reproach.

[Duuuuuuuude]

Originally Posted by rock hard

I myself prefer my son not live in a country where he is penalised for using his money

Dear lord.

But you're ok with him being "penalized" for making money? The flat payroll tax you're in love with will have him paying out more with each raise he gets.

With the consumption tax he'll be paying the same as everyone else for the things he needs. The difference will come when he starts eyeballing crap he doesn't need.

[paintballer9876]

To all the people that get pissed at the ceo's that make millions every year, its called capitalism if you dont like it get out. You have no else to blame but yourself. Also a huge portion of the money they earn is in stock which means if they do a crap job their bonus goes down the toilet. I work as a contractor at western unions headquarters, and the last ceo brought home around a million dollars in income plus 60 million in stock. If they pull the stock out right away they pay the 25% tax so they will keep most if not all of the stock and pull out a little at a time. Its a lot of money but she didn't get there sitting on her ass doing nothing. Proof of this is the fact that she has been there for 8 years and has help double its revenue.