U.S. Tax System explained in Beer

[rock hard]

Originally Posted by Duuuuuuuude

Dear lord.

But you're ok with him being "penalized" for making money? The flat payroll tax you're in love with will have him paying out more with each raise he gets.

With the consumption tax he'll be paying the same as everyone else for the things he needs. The difference will come when he starts eyeballing crap he doesn't need.

no he would not be penalised

he would pay the exact same as every other wage earner
ever dollar should be taxed the exact same amount

no matter if you earn 20,000 a yr
or 2000,000 a yr
or 200,000,000 a yr

a straight of the top tax of lets say for arugents sake 25%

the poor,middle class,rich
al pay the same % of thier gross income

Then no one person pays a higher percentage than another
therefore its not a penalty
its theft,but they would steal from us all equally

A person needing to spend more,as he has more to take care of(dependants) wouldnt be taxed any more or less than
a person with no obligations.

[rock hard]

Originally Posted by JeremyH

Yep, we both agree on that. A flat percentage is exactly what Paul is advocating for.....which is exactly what is given when a consumer purchases an item. I personally like the ability to control my own taxes and the fact that we'll be gaining income from drug dealers, illegals and all others who don't report their income.

Its not a flate %

its a flat % of tax on product

but some houshold will NEED more to survive
those housholds will pay a higher % of tax on the dollar than a single peron with no obligations

Cant you see that would hurt families.
Those who have the most dependants would pay the most tax

Look,every person should pay the same on thier INCOME!!!!!!!

A consumption tax has flaw after flaw
The flat tax will be equal houshold to houshold
as the same % of the total income confiscated by the goverment would be equal.

In the consumption tax the total % of tax paid compared to income
accumulated would not be equal houshold to houshold= UNFAIR

[Duuuuuuuude]

Originally Posted by paintballer9876

To all the people that get pissed at the ceo's that make millions every year, its called capitalism if you dont like it get out.

That is capitalism.

What isn't capitalism is when one (or many) of those CEO's drive their companies and this nations economy into the ground and then get propped up by our tax dollars, which, in a true capitalist society, would not have happened. In a true capitalist society, those corporations would have failed (just like any other business), their remaining assets liquidated, and the once mega-rich CEO's who were responsible would be out on their asses and looking for a job like the rest of us.

[Duuuuuuuude]

Flat tax proposal. I have no idea how old this is....

Point of interest has been highlighted.

Summary

House majority leader Dick Armey is proposing a 17% flat tax on income. This is basically the same plan supported by former candidate Steve Forbes. Currently many Americans pay as much as 33% or more in cumulative taxes because tax rates vary for each individual based on income brackets, exemptions and a complex system of IRS codes. This proposal would create a single flat rate tax fixed at 17% that would be the same rate for all Americans. Most Americans would see this as a reduction in tax rate. The national average is currently 22%.

Advantages: the 17% flat tax would replace the existing tax system and proposes the following:

* Individuals would be initially taxed at a flat rate of 20%, falling to 17% after two years.
* It would significantly reduce the tax rate for many Americans.
* It would eliminate double taxation.
* It would simplify tax preparation. Corporate and individuals would be able to file their returns on a ten-line postcard-size tax form.
* It would encourage savings. Individuals would no longer pay tax on income from savings, capital gains, and interest income.
* It would provide a strong boost to capital formation and thereby stimulate the economy.
* It would reduce IRS staff and overhead and streamline tax preparation.
* Corporations would be allowed to expense all their investments--no more complex depreciations.
* It is a progressive tax with a flat rate on taxable income, however, the more an individual saves or invests, the lower his taxable income becomes, thus lowering his total tax payment.
* Taxable income is defined as total income minus savings and investments minus a threshold income. The typical family threshold income is $36,800.
* This would mean that nearly half of all households would pay no federal income tax under this plan.
* It would reduce the cost of compliance from $593 Billion to an estimated $50 billion per year.
* It is a simple tax that levies the same tax rate to all Americans regardless of taxable income, while reducing or eliminating income taxes for low income families.

Disadvantages :

* It would not eliminate the IRS, but would reduce its role.
* It would eliminate deductions for mortgage interest payments, a drawback for homeowners.
* It would eliminate deductions for charitable donations.
* Corporations could deduct all wages and salaries, but benefits like social security, health or life insurance would no longer be tax exempt.
* Corporations would no longer be able to deduct interest payments on debt.

[rock hard]

Originally Posted by JeremyH

In your opinion...



How does Flat Tax include EVERYONE? It cant. Until it does, then it is NOT fair.

Fair tax is applied equally to EVERYONE. No matter how you gather your income....legally OR illegally.....it includes EVERYONE.


Yes, everyone EXCEPT those who dont claim their income.

So by your analogy (fair)

No law or rule is fair

since there are always those who will break the law,no law is fair.
Its not fair unless no one breaks the law.

Its against the law not to claim unreperted income.

Most of us obey the law,but since others dont the law isnt fair right??

[rock hard]

Originally Posted by Duuuuuuuude

Flat tax proposal. I have no idea how old this is....

Point of interest has been highlighted.

Its just a proposal

all should pay,no matter how little or how much you earn IMO
It is up to congress to decide
but a consumptiojn tax will never happen on the federal stage.

what is needed is really more like 30% aswell

[rock hard]

Originally Posted by Duuuuuuuude

That is capitalism.

What isn't capitalism is when one (or many) of those CEO's drive their companies and this nations economy into the ground and then get propped up by our tax dollars, which, in a true capitalist society, would not have happened. In a true capitalist society, those corporations would have failed (just like any other business), their remaining assets liquidated, and the once mega-rich CEO's who were responsible would be out on their asses and looking for a job like the rest of us.

thats cuz the goverment is corrupt from the groud floor up
tax dollars should never be used in such a manner IMO

[Duuuuuuuude]

Originally Posted by rock hard

Its just a proposal

Aren't they all?

[Duuuuuuuude]

Originally Posted by rock hard

thats cuz the goverment is corrupt from the groud floor up
tax dollars should never be used in such a manner IMO

Amen to that. If you're going to live by capitalism, you should die by capitalism.

[The Violator]

Originally Posted by rock hard

I myself prefer my son not live in a country where he is penalised for using his money

I prefer toys not rise in cost,or bikes.

some kids,families will have to do without to save moreso than now.
why??? cuz a earners taxes are based on what they spend,not what the earn

so more people who are not so well of will find it even harder to provide.

and with people hoarding money ( really great for americans)
there will be less commerce,less jobs,more unemployment
\
\
\Look our economy grows becouse of commerce,not the lack of

people open buisness and hire others as a result of commerce
not a lack of.

some of You sound like you want to teach/force/pursuade others to save.

Its not your job to purshuad anyone,nor is it the goverments job.
We are a free country that has thrived on a system of open commmerce.
Only when goverment gets involved does real curruption and failure result
As the goverment is above the law and reproach.

Please look into some spell check software. Your argument would look 10x better if you did not misspell every 5th word.

[paintballer9876]

Originally Posted by Duuuuuuuude

That is capitalism.

What isn't capitalism is when one (or many) of those CEO's drive their companies and this nations economy into the ground and then get propped up by our tax dollars, which, in a true capitalist society, would not have happened. In a true capitalist society, those corporations would have failed (just like any other business), their remaining assets liquidated, and the once mega-rich CEO's who were responsible would be out on their asses and looking for a job like the rest of us.

Your right human nature screws up everything, we are greedy, we play favorites, we like to push the limits and we are driven by emotions. All of those have shaped our world today, the government is where it is today because of that. Slowly from before our country was a country our the politicians have slowly pushed the limits further and further. They have played favorites and have used to much greed to fund their own goals. We all hold these attributes, when you get your paycheck you dont take what you need to survive (shelter and food) and give the rest away (greed). When you are selling something and two people offer to buy it and one is your friend you will sell to your friend first (favorites). going over the speed limit (pushing the limits) and have you ever spent more than what you planned on spending on something at a swap meet or an auction (emotion). No system is perfect and the fact that our government has lasted this long is a testament to democracy and capitalism.

Our country today, unless a huge change occurs, is closer to its death then its birth.

[rock hard]

Originally Posted by The Violator

Please look into some spell check software. Your argument would look 10x better if you did not misspell every 5th word.

Thanks,I hear ya
but I'm doing 3 things at once,and I'm going blind in one eye,my fingers are fat and I'm kinda dislexic


I think I'm doing pretty good

[JeremyH]

Originally Posted by rock hard

since there are always those who will break the law,no law is fair.
Its not fair unless no one breaks the law.

Laws are applied equally to everyone in this country....those who are here legally AND illegally. When you break the law and you get caught, you are punished.

That example is VERY similar to the Fair Tax example. People are free to go about their day completely unaffected by the government. When they choose to take one type of action (either purchasing a product or breaking the law), then the government steps in and applies the law.

Originally Posted by rock hard

but some houshold will NEED more to survive
those housholds will pay a higher % of tax on the dollar than a single peron with no obligations

You currently pay a consumption tax on what items? Prepared items. When you go to the grocery store to purchase items that people NEED to survive, which items are taxed? Almost NONE of them. Why would it be any different with Fair Tax?

BTW, households CURRENTLY (and would under Flat Tax) pay a higher dollar amount in taxes than a single person.

Originally Posted by rock hard

Look,every person should pay the same on thier INCOME!!!!!!!

Why is that? What makes that more right than paying on their expenditures? Your opinion....

[RANOVRU]

Taxing income seems a lot more like stealing than taxing what you buy.

Why? Because you have a say-so in what you buy.


Doesnt really matter. In VA we have income AND sales tax, & that will never change...

[rock hard]

Originally Posted by JeremyH

Laws are applied equally to everyone in this country....those who are here legally AND illegally. When you break the law and you get caught, you are punished.

That example is VERY similar to the Fair Tax example. People are free to go about their day completely unaffected by the government. When they choose to take one type of action (either purchasing a product or breaking the law), then the government steps in and applies the law.


You currently pay a consumption tax on what items? Prepared items. When you go to the grocery store to purchase items that people NEED to survive, which items are taxed? Almost NONE of them. Why would it be any different with Fair Tax?

BTW, households CURRENTLY (and would under Flat Tax) pay a higher dollar amount in taxes than a single person.


Why is that? What makes that more right than paying on their expenditures? Your opinion....

wrong j

[JeremyH]

Originally Posted by rock hard

wrong j

So, you are saying that currently a single person pays more money (actual dollars, not a percentage) to the government for their taxes than a household? Wow, that's not how it is for me....I pay a LOT more money in taxes now than I did when I was single.

[rock hard]

Originally Posted by JeremyH

So, you are saying that currently a single person pays more money (actual dollars, not a percentage) to the government for their taxes than a household? Wow, that's not how it is for me....I pay a LOT more money in taxes now than I did when I was single.

percentage is key



the percentage of income taken by the goverment varies in our current code
and also in a consumption code.

only in a flat tax would the percentage of monay taken from each houshold be
equal.

currently:
A single person pays more than a married couple with one income
and then the more children(dependants)the less again

a single person has no additional dependants to claim

I have myself,wife,child those extra dependants lower my total tax burden
compared to a person with no dependants other than themselfs.

Now with a consumption tax it would be the complete opposite
the single person who only needs to buy for themselfs would pay less
than a person who must provide for many.

a complete swap from what we have now

both of these are unfair
the percentage of encome stolen should be equal for all.

the only way to achieve this is a flat tax

[JeremyH]

Originally Posted by rock hard

only in a flat tax would the percentage of monay taken from each houshold be
equal.

If a consumption tax were imposed, the percentage applied to every household would be exactly the same.

You keep switching back and forth between percentage and dollar value....which is it?

Originally Posted by rock hard

A single person pays more than a married couple with one income
and then the more children(dependants)the less again

Now we see that key bit of info you havent mentioned before....."with ONE income". How about with two incomes? Why should someone who doesnt earn a monetary income be free from contributing to this country? Does that person not use the things that are paid for by others taxes? Yes they do.

[rock hard]

Originally Posted by JeremyH

If a consumption tax were imposed, the percentage applied to every household would be exactly the same.

You keep switching back and forth between percentage and dollar value....which is it?


Now we see that key bit of info you havent mentioned before....."with ONE income". How about with two incomes? Why should someone who doesnt earn a monetary income be free from contributing to this country? Does that person not use the things that are paid for by others taxes? Yes they do.

Look in a flat tax its all the same


person #1 has $1

person #2 has $100

person #3 has $1000

the goverment steals 25% of that

so person #1 pays 25c
person 2 pays $25
person 3 pays $250

even though we all paid different amounts
it was based on a % of our earnings
so we all actually paid the same % of tax


A consumption tax is flawed,in multiple ways
I cant help it if you cant see its downfalls by now J

#1-----Just the fact that it would hurt the economy is simple economics
that alon is a deal killer IMO

Your premis that it would have helped stop our current problem is wrong IMO

the regulations placed on banks by our goverment to give loans for homes
to people who was high risk was a leading factor.

get gooverment out and let the market place work

#2------The ability that people would be able to earn without penalty
and then take that saving to live elsewhere is a horrible idea.That is in no way good for our economy.And that alon is a deal killer IMO

#3-------The fact that people who have saved money that has already been taxed,would be taxed again once that money is spent is a HUGE deal breaker.
It is wrong to double tax the same money,and again a deal killer IMO

#4-------The fact that people who provide for the most dependants would
pay a higher % of thier income to taxes than people who dont provide
for other dependants.
This is simpley bad policy for heads of housholds and would have a negative
effect on all families.But poor families especially,and a deal killer.

#5-------The problem now IMO is that some pay more than others.
The same would be true with a consumption tax. Though the sales tax may be the same for all.Not all our needs are the same,as such the % of people gross income paid to tax would vary


The only plus the cunsumption tax has IMO
people who dont pay taxes cuz they work under the radar would
get cought in its net.

Its not going to stop people cheating the system
the people looking to break the law will continue to do so.

it will increase black market sales of goods.


Oh,J you said there is a consumption tax already
Thats wrong actually

Its a tax on labor
people assume that there is no tax on labor
But at a resturant you are taxed on PREPARED food.
thats a tax on labor,not consumption

soon all labor will be taxed

[rock hard]

Originally Posted by JeremyH

If a consumption tax were imposed, the percentage applied to every household would be exactly the same.

You keep switching back and forth between percentage and dollar value....which is it?


Now we see that key bit of info you havent mentioned before....."with ONE income". How about with two incomes? Why should someone who doesnt earn a monetary income be free from contributing to this country? Does that person not use the things that are paid for by others taxes? Yes they do.

They do pay taxes now,if there is a 2 income family,both earners pay tax currently. J.You know this,only people who work for cash and dont repeort it
dont pay tax.