Battery maker A123 Systems files for bankruptcy

[GEARSCIENCE]

Originally Posted by The Violator

That is so funny. I bet you read that on a blog while you were camped out to get your Iphone 5.




I idea of an electric car is great. The execution has fallen short, and it is being subsidized by the American taxpayer. We are all paying for a few to buy overpriced under performing vehicles. In 100 years it should be a viable option. RIGHT NOW, it is not, no matter how much money Obama throws at it.

In 100 yrs its not magically gonna be viable. That why you start The R&D now so in a hundred yrs it might be viable...

[rock hard]

Originally Posted by GEARSCIENCE

In 100 yrs its not magically gonna be viable. That why you start The R&D now so in a hundred yrs it might be viable...

iElectriic has a few obstacals.

Its power to the ground is not enoughh to satisfy most
its distance per charge is not enough for most
size is too small for most.

Most people have kids, who have friends, and we need room as parents for our children, sports gear, groceries ect.

We are often pressed for time with our busy schedules, ect and would like to
have some getup and go.

Also of people live several miles from thier work, school, ect.
We need cars that can go 100's of miles per charge consistantly
and not with no load on flat ground with the wind to our back.

We also cant affoard 100,000g for a car like this ( tesla )
I would love to have a model x tesla, but its not in my budget
the model x is the only full electric car that will meet my needs of speed, payload and distance.

I also dotn thnk its right for gov to give credits to make it moors affordable.

add to this that if 50% of cars went electric over the next 10 yrs, I dont think the grid would handle it, electriciity cost would go up ( supply damannd )

also alot of people like road trips, even if I had the model x, it would be absolutly usels for vacation, road trips.

My fossil fuel nitro got me to nationalls in 14hrs and 200 bucks.
a electric would have taken how many charge stops?

alot of americans ( like myslef ) are ready for electric cars
however electriic cars are not ready to meet alot of americans needs.

Right now fossil fuel is the sht, and there is no reason pushing someting onto
americans ( especially with tax dollars ) that isnt ready to meet the needs of most americans.

[Duuuuuuuude]

Originally Posted by rock hard

iElectriic has a few obstacals.

Its power to the ground is not enoughh to satisfy most
its distance per charge is not enough for most
size is too small for most.

They weren't designed to be race cars.

They get the same miles-per-charge as most cars get with a tank of gas.

They aren't school buses or suvs.

Right now they are geared towards commuters. People who don't need tons of cargo space, aren't traveling across state, or plan to take them to track day.

Most of the time, people that do need those things don't need them most of the time. I've got an suv, but I don't need its capabilities 24/7.

[WHITE-TRASH]

Originally Posted by GEARSCIENCE

yup its all his fault for trying to move our nation away from finite forms of energy... lets scrap all green energy programs and just keep pumping oil bc its great for the environment and will never run out

If fossil fuels are finite who has run out? There is nothing but speculation as to amounts of crude in the ground and those numbers are always changing.

Electric cars are viable in large cities but not so much anywhere else. Same with mass transit, it has its uses but only for some of the population.

[JohnRobHolmes]

Electric is quickly catching gas in the power to weight ratio area. It already beats gassers in the R/C realm, it is just a matter of scaling up production and getting some research in the full size cars. My electric bikes are MUCH more powerful than equivalent weight gas bikes. So far we don't have much experience to lean on with full size cars, compared to gas engines.

Range really isn't a problem unless you are going across country or commute more than 100 miles per day. Electric batteries have a long way to go, and there is a lot of room for improvement. It took over 25 years for lithium cells to come from the lab into a commercially viable product. Some of the new anode and cathode technologies will likely take just as long to flesh out, and give another 10 fold increase in capacity density without increasing the size or weight of the cell.


The big issue of charging electric vehicles is WHEN they are charged. Most power plants have a huge surplus during the night as compared to peak loads around dinner time. It won't stress the grid any more if we just charge when we sleep, it won't consume any more power at the plant.


A123s failures were many. They bought PolyRC and totally mismanaged it. They hung dear to LiFePO4 tech when NMC offers half the weight with the same cycle life and safety- and they had YEARS to catch up before NMC hit the market. They screwed up production at the Michigan plant on the # 4 assembly line and didn't have a method to track which machine the cells were made on once it hit the next room. Whoops, there goes 1/4 million cells that are bad with no way to tell! Whoops, just lost a big contract!


I don't feel bad at all for them. The lithium battery market is tough and fast paced, and they did nothing to hedge their bets or be competitive.




I use electric transport all the time. Once I get a cart for my bike I won't really ever need to use my car unless I feel like staying out of the rain or out of the snow.

[vonclod]

Originally Posted by rock hard

iElectriic has a few obstacals.

Its power to the ground is not enoughh to satisfy most
its distance per charge is not enough for most
size is too small for most.

Most people have kids, who have friends, and we need room as parents for our children, sports gear, groceries ect.

We are often pressed for time with our busy schedules, ect and would like to
have some getup and go.

Also of people live several miles from thier work, school, ect.
We need cars that can go 100's of miles per charge consistantly
and not with no load on flat ground with the wind to our back.

We also cant affoard 100,000g for a car like this ( tesla )
I would love to have a model x tesla, but its not in my budget
the model x is the only full electric car that will meet my needs of speed, payload and distance.

I also dotn thnk its right for gov to give credits to make it moors affordable.

add to this that if 50% of cars went electric over the next 10 yrs, I dont think the grid would handle it, electriciity cost would go up ( supply damannd )

also alot of people like road trips, even if I had the model x, it would be absolutly usels for vacation, road trips.

My fossil fuel nitro got me to nationalls in 14hrs and 200 bucks.
a electric would have taken how many charge stops?

alot of americans ( like myslef ) are ready for electric cars
however electriic cars are not ready to meet alot of americans needs.

Right now fossil fuel is the sht, and there is no reason pushing someting onto
americans ( especially with tax dollars ) that isnt ready to meet the needs of most americans.

you know you have just given alot of reasons for this type of technology to be explored and more importantly improved..if nothing is done nothing happens..really simple..gonna run out of oil at some point..i guess we should just let it run out and run around in a panic trying to figure it out then

[dont slow down]

A recession is not the time to explore new technologies and start trying to shift people towards green technology when nobody has the money to buy the new products they are designing and producing. It was doomed before it started.

[The Violator]

Originally Posted by vonclod

you know you have just given alot of reasons for this type of technology to be explored and more importantly improved..if nothing is done nothing happens..really simple..gonna run out of oil at some point..i guess we should just let it run out and run around in a panic trying to figure it out then

The idea of green energy should be pushed. It is just not the job of the federal government to pay for it. Or at least I did not see that part when I read the Constitution.

[rock hard]

Originally Posted by Duuuuuuuude

They weren't designed to be race cars.
I didnt say race car, I said get up and go, you know, like a gas car

They get the same miles-per-charge as most cars get with a tank of gas
Didnt say they didnt, but if you run out of gas its a whole 10 min to fill up and keep going. If your car goes dead, your screwed.

They aren't school buses or suvs.
alot of cars are not suv's., yet still have plenty of room for kids and gear,ect.
also alot of suv's are small and get decent mialage.

Right now they are geared towards commuters. People who don't need tons of cargo space, aren't traveling across state, or plan to take them to track day.
Most people cant afford to have a car simplly for commuting, and alot of people happen to pick up thier kids, and grocerios while they commute.
Electric cars need more capacity/torque/range. My wifes commute ( and most everyone else in our county, or the 5 countiesa reound us ) 200+ miles round trip to our closest large city for work/play

Most of the time, people that do need those things don't need them most of the time. I've got an suv, but I don't need its capabilities 24/7.

LIke I said, people cant afford multiple cars for different uses.
We most use ONE car for all our uses.and right now electric will not meet the needs of most families.

John is right about charging at night is little no no strain on the grid.....at least at 1st..but with around 1/2 at full electric all on the grid each night.
You'll have around 75 million cars all getting plugged in around the same time...that may just be more strain on the grid than you imagine.

also with more electric cars, mean more electricity= more coal, natural gas
which will increase demand on those fuels, which wil increae thier cost compered to immediat supply which will increase the cost of ALL electricity, not just whats used durring the day.

Now we are along way from 50% cars being electric, but it would be wise to increase natural gas and coal exploration NOW to prepare

and we need to realize, any carbon restriction will increase the cost of the fuels, which will be tranfered to the electric copaniies consumers........US

[rock hard]

Originally Posted by vonclod

you know you have just given alot of reasons for this type of technology to be explored and more importantly improved..if nothing is done nothing happens..really simple..gonna run out of oil at some point..i guess we should just let it run out and run around in a panic trying to figure it out then

there are rigs that was shut down 10 yrs ago ( dry ) and they are open up for buisness again ( full again )

oil is a renewable resourse, renewed by organism that die each and every dayin the ocean. Yes we likely consume more than is renewed, but there is alot more than you know.

We will also be recycling more oill than in yrs past, and that wil help, it all helps lower total consumptio. But we cant live without crude, and tehre is no better source of energy to move america into the next 100 yrs.

[vonclod]

Originally Posted by The Violator

The idea of green energy should be pushed. It is just not the job of the federal government to pay for it. Or at least I did not see that part when I read the Constitution.

i understand your point..in tough times its hard to ask the taxpayer to give up what isnt even really there, its all play money now..if a123 was properly managed the funding might of paid off in the end and this discussion might not be happening..its too bad because it leaves a sour taste in everyones mouth for sure

[rik]

i read in the paper a week or two ago that Wanxiang Group is bailing them out to the tune of 450 million. tho i guess that fell thru and Johnson Controls will buy them out for far less.

[vonclod]

Originally Posted by rock hard

there are rigs that was shut down 10 yrs ago ( dry ) and they are open up for buisness again ( full again )

oil is a renewable resourse, renewed by organism that die each and every dayin the ocean. Yes we likely consume more than is renewed, but there is alot more than you know.

We will also be recycling more oill than in yrs past, and that wil help, it all helps lower total consumptio. But we cant live without crude, and tehre is no better source of energy to move america into the next 100 yrs.

that well was likley connected or very close to another untapped deposit and over 10 years there are movements in the earth that could connect the 2..im guessing yes there is more oil out there
but i am pretty sure it does not renews at anywhere near the rate of consumption, it takes millions of years..i think it unwise to plan our next 100 years on an unknown..imho

[rock hard]

Originally Posted by vonclod

that well was likley connected or very close to another untapped deposit and over 10 years there are movements in the earth that could connect the 2..im guessing yes there is more oil out there
but i am pretty sure it does not renews at anywhere near the rate of consumption, it takes millions of years..i think it unwise to plan our next 100 years on an unknown..imho

Nope, actually there are old reserves that are feed from even deeper below than what they knew excisted back in the day.

This type of oil is from the burnt materials deep within th earth ( it takes heat and pressure to produce oil )

the reason it is believed it takes so long for oil to be created is cuz of the time it would take to cover up the organisms to get the heat and pressure required.

But, on a daily basiis since the creation organismms have been creating oil, its not the dino's.

and now that they realize that there is oil created another 30,000 feet below that. A steedy supply, it was the russians who 1st stumbled upon this fact.

Their wells are lower than any fossils, and are steedily producing with no end in sight.

There are wells in this formaions capable of 150,000 barrels per day

I learned this last winter, I worked for russian company in the gas industry in a r&d facility. I was ablle to rub shoulders, and listen to alot of bigdogs.

They also say that oil os cleaner than natural gas, natural gas BURNS cleaner, but when you factor in all the additional variables
exploration, recovery, pipe lines, ect...natural gas actually has a greater footprint and is more costly to maintain the infastructur.

Oh I forgot, it was said that if our world oil cunsumption stayed under 100 million barrels a day, that there is enough reachablle with present technology to last roughly 2,000 yrs

Supply is not an issue

[badhoopty]

Bill Dube wrecks the fastest electric motorcycle - YouTube

classic...

[JohnRobHolmes]

Originally Posted by rock hard

also with more electric cars, mean more electricity= more coal, natural gas
which will increase demand on those fuels, which wil increae thier cost compered to immediat supply which will increase the cost of ALL electricity, not just whats used durring the day.

Now we are along way from 50% cars being electric, but it would be wise to increase natural gas and coal exploration NOW to prepare

We should look at this from a total energy used standpoint. Does it take more energy to harvest oil, refine it, truck it around the globe, and burn it in 75 million engines? Or does it take more energy to haul coal locally, burn it in much fewer and easier to control engines (emissions wise), then transfer it to electric drive systems through the electric grid? The relative costs of $$money mean nothing, it is all manipulated fiat funny money anyway. The TOTAL energy used to move our asses per kilogram should be minimized as a goal, and the fiat $$ market will naturally select more efficient processes for global industry. In the long run there is no way to give electric or gasoline travel any competitive edge on the consumer dollar level, as they are substitute goods and the market WILL ensure a balance of cost for the "fair market price".


I think that looking at our typical energy distribution systems is short sighted though. Fuel cell technology will probably wipe batteries off the face of the earth. Refillable with liquid energy or rechargeable with electricity, they can be both. I would bet my ass we will have energy cells that can strip obscene amounts of electricity from crude oil within 100 years. With the new advent of 2d layer construction the next level of energy storage has just begun.



Now lets talk about how a123 needs to be turned around.

[4VRYNG]

I would love to own an electric car. Living in my small community it would be really sweet. Less than 10 miles to work. 1/2 mile to shopping, and 1.5 miles to my kids school. I would trade my daily driver for one pretty easily. If I want to take a long trip, I have an SUV to take.

[rock hard]

Originally Posted by JohnRobHolmes

We should look at this from a total energy used standpoint. Does it take more energy to harvest oil, refine it, truck it around the globe, and burn it in 75 million engines? Or does it take more energy to haul coal locally, burn it in much fewer and easier to control engines (emissions wise), then transfer it to electric drive systems through the electric grid? The relative costs of $$money mean nothing, it is all manipulated fiat funny money anyway. The TOTAL energy used to move our asses per kilogram should be minimized as a goal, and the fiat $$ market will naturally select more efficient processes for global industry. In the long run there is no way to give electric or gasoline travel any competitive edge on the consumer dollar level, as they are substitute goods and the market WILL ensure a balance of cost for the "fair market price".


I think that looking at our typical energy distribution systems is short sighted though. Fuel cell technology will probably wipe batteries off the face of the earth. Refillable with liquid energy or rechargeable with electricity, they can be both. I would bet my ass we will have energy cells that can strip obscene amounts of electricity from crude oil within 100 years. With the new advent of 2d layer construction the next level of energy storage has just begun.



Now lets talk about how a123 needs to be turned around.

cant happen the way we are headed. ( not talking about the energy cells, thats just a ways out ) Everyone makes coal out as a bad guy, and in all honesty, it does pollute. Not to mention the mining of coal, especially strip mining.

Then the loading and transport, buring, and disposal of the fly ash, which means more loading,hauling.

Coal is dirty, and there is no way around it, we can only get it so clean.
But it is neccessary, as is natural gas if we want electricity
( unless we could just use a clean source for electricity production that has PROVEN itself viable ) WATER

why our country has not built more damns and made them energy producing, I dont know. But we all know water for consumption will be an issue in a growing population, as is energy, its a no brainer IMO. Build lakes and build them big as you can, and make them energy generating plants when you do.

But as far as oil and its supply, its a non issue

as far as which is better for the inviroment, fossil or electric....its depends on how you look at it.

Our cars use 1 battery, and have for decades....how many of those batteries ended up NOT being disposed of properly?
Now if cars use nemerous batteries, over time, how many of them will end of being recycled, and how many will end up in landfills?

Its hot and miss, and we need it all, but when it comes to elctric cars being a REAL option for most families, they simply dont offer what we need from a car in our price range, least not yet.
when cars with range and function like this, get under the 50,000 mark, we will see numerous families makke the switch
I know I will.
http://www.teslamotors.com/modelx

[JohnRobHolmes]

Landfills are just a future mine! Throw them batteries away, they will still be there in 100 years for us to recycle.


The recycling program in my town just buries all the plastics. Oil isn't expensive enough to make plastic recycling worth it in my area, so just bury it for later when oil is expensive! It isn't going anywhere in the mean time.

[hanstone]

What about in Mich. LG Chem employees idle -300 million dollar Lith Ion plant funded by US, has yet to ship one battery. Workers so idle they spend there days playing cards. Whats going to happen to this place?