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Old 12-18-2013, 07:15 PM   #81
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Default Re: Who is up for a new comp class

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Originally Posted by stubs179 View Post
Scalers are popular because they take no skill to drive.
Yep, was at a "big" scale event a few years ago where people were pointing out on all the courses and seems like I had only a handful of reverses total. It was eye opening. And I'm not that good of a driver.

But scalers are popular since you can do anything you want with them.
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Old 12-18-2013, 08:29 PM   #82
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Default Re: Who is up for a new comp class

Sporty capable scalers FTW
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Old 12-18-2013, 08:30 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by WHITE-TRASH View Post
Are you retarded?
No sir

You can not honestly tell me scalers take anywhere near the skill to drive as a comp crawler. And that is why they are more popular. Same reason there are way more 4wheeler sold than dirt bikes, stand up jet skis lost favor to sit down jet skis and the list could be endless. People want easy.
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Old 12-18-2013, 08:55 PM   #84
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Default Re: Who is up for a new comp class

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Originally Posted by stubs179 View Post
Scalers are popular because they take no skill to drive.

I think you said it wrong. I think what you meant is...

"Comp crawlers take skill to drive and master and that is the big reason people give them up and move to something else."

I would think that driving a scaler could take some serious skill to do well.


To add to this cluster....

I dont and have never gotten why any part of our cars need to look like a real car. I just dont get it. I also dont think that is why people dont comp crawl. I think its just that people dont like getting beat all the time and dominated.

Stubs idea is great. Add classes and let people win. In 801, we are going to "run what ya brung". Everybody will run the same gates but because we are going to divide the same exact comp up into beginner/novice/pro there are 3 chances to win. We are also going to divide it up into the type of car you run, Sporty/1.9/Wraith/Scaler/whatever so now you have ANOTHER 5 or so chances to win. Thats a total of 8 chances to win, everybody should be happy.

Come run whatever you want. If you like scaling, bring your scaler with your bundle of wood, sleeping bag, shovel etc,. and comp with the guy who has 4 rolling tires and looks more like a robot. Fun is your personal responsibility and you should not be concerned with what everybody else runs.

Last edited by Erik D_lux; 12-19-2013 at 07:25 AM.
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Old 12-18-2013, 09:07 PM   #85
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Default Re: Who is up for a new comp class

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Originally Posted by stubs179 View Post
No sir

You can not honestly tell me scalers take anywhere near the skill to drive as a comp crawler. And that is why they are more popular. Same reason there are way more 4wheeler sold than dirt bikes, stand up jet skis lost favor to sit down jet skis and the list could be endless. People want easy.
So it just occurred to me that I have been looking at the whole scaler thing wrong. I look at the small tires and all the scale crap on the roof with a spare tire etc and I know it would be hard to drive on the terrain I'd take it on. What's wrong with that is I'm getting the feeling they use a very easy course which I hadn't imagined since I wouldn't do that.

So am I correct now in calling the scalers the mall crawlers of the comp world? If so my apologies for questioning your mental fitness.

Last edited by WHITE-TRASH; 12-18-2013 at 09:12 PM.
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Old 12-18-2013, 10:00 PM   #86
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Default Re: Who is up for a new comp class

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I dont and have never gotten why any part of our cars need to look like a real car. I just dont get it.
They don't. But if the question is how to get new people to show up, you can't deny the appeal of a truck that looks real. New people see that, and can relate.

I understand what you're saying, but I'm also interested in seeing what would happen if they looked real again...strictly a "what if" type of thing. Personally I have no problems with the rules, and I like the format...that's why you don't see me complaining about anything in the rules section. I just want to build a truck that looks more like a truck and drive it with everyone else. I know it won't be competitive but that's ok...it's just my own self imposed set of rules and I really don't need a special class. Local Sporty is fine, even if it's now full of 2.2s trucks.

Besides, nobody can stop me from building a 6lb, metal tube truck with scale tires and a driver

Last edited by C*H*U*D; 12-18-2013 at 10:02 PM.
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Old 12-18-2013, 11:06 PM   #87
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Default Re: Who is up for a new comp class

Take this FWIW from a guy that's never been to a real comp before. (but will be going next year)

I have had the pleasure of driving some nice all out comp rigs, thanks to friends. If you're running the same course then there's no way a scaler is easier to drive on those lines than a purpose built comp rig. A comp rig will walk lines that my Wraith will struggle with, if it makes it at all, even with my noob driving skills. Now if the scaler courses are being made artificially easy, then that's a whole other story.

I think there are a few things that turn guys off of comps. Some of which I've experienced, some of which is just my observations. And all of this is just my $.02

1. I live in podunk, and I'd have to drive a minimum of 2hrs each way to get to a comp from what I've seen this year. That's a lot of drive time if I get put out right off the bat, when all I really wanted to do was play with my toy trucks. I'm still going to get my taste next year just the same, but it's worth the observation nonetheless.

2. Very few people in this area are even into RC, as our economy is a lot worse than larger areas, and people just don't have the extra money. So there aren't many guys (if any) to even trail / scale with, much less organize a local comp that doesn't require said long drive.

3. I think you guys are right about the whole getting beat for a LONG time until they figure out their rig, tuning, and driving the thing. A good driver can take an old heavy ass comp rig and still beat the newb with the best gear out there. I know because I've had it done to me, and learning to crawl is a lot harder when there are gates involved (Rusty was nice enough to set up gates and help me start learning at the T1e compound over Thanksgiving) and you have to clear them with BOTH axles. My issue is I oversteer the front and forget about where the rear tires will land. This stuff takes a lot of practice to get good, and for many, they simply either don't have the time, or aren't willing to spend it all on one hobby to get to that point as a driver.

4. There is literally a ton of things that go into making a rig work the way it should. A lot of reading, research, and wrench time with trial and error. And some of that stuff is just over people's heads when it comes to geometry, suspension tuning, etc. And I haven't even gotten to the truly techie stuff like RC, IC, COG, LOF, etc. I took the approach of buying an older chassis and running a proven setup for a baseline. I'll still suck at driving, but at least I should have more of a fighting chance than simply throwing something together and hoping it works.

Also, as someone mentioned the whole shift to uber lightweight setups that cost serious money, and that too is a drawback for many as well. I don't mind spending a silly amount of money on my Wraith because it's fun to just run around at the house, and is very versatile as far as RC's go. But a comp rig is really only fun if you have a serious rock pile at home, or very close by, for me at least. As stated, never been to a comp so I have no idea how they're ran or what is lacking. Just my observations and worthless opinion. I'm still annoyed that my SW2 with moabs woudn't be competitive.
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Old 12-18-2013, 11:33 PM   #88
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Default Re: Who is up for a new comp class

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SORRCA seems to put too much emphasis on scale detail, might as well build static models (not hating, I used to build static models, and still have a closet full of them). USRCCA has been influenced way too much by the garage machinists and hardcore comp guys.
I'm just asking- isn't this the idea behind a scaler class? This is how I personally look at the scalers. A nicely detailed, realistic model of a rig running on terrain that is (approximately) scaled to the vehicle? I've owned a few 1:1 4x4's during my life, I've never had one that could climb a near vertical rock face, run submerged in the water or drive down the road on 50"+ tall tires.

I'm not hating on someone else's idea of a 'scale' rig, I just understand why a TF2 rig ( for example) doesn't count as a real 'scaler' for this idea of a new class? From what I can gather from this discussion, it sounds like a lot of folks want to dust off there old AX-10 rigs, toss on a new lexan body and call it a scaler?
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Old 12-19-2013, 06:06 AM   #89
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Default Re: Who is up for a new comp class

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Originally Posted by BigSki View Post
I'm just asking- isn't this the idea behind a scaler class? This is how I personally look at the scalers. A nicely detailed, realistic model of a rig running on terrain that is (approximately) scaled to the vehicle? I've owned a few 1:1 4x4's during my life, I've never had one that could climb a near vertical rock face, run submerged in the water or drive down the road on 50"+ tall tires.

I'm not hating on someone else's idea of a 'scale' rig, I just understand why a TF2 rig ( for example) doesn't count as a real 'scaler' for this idea of a new class? From what I can gather from this discussion, it sounds like a lot of folks want to dust off there old AX-10 rigs, toss on a new lexan body and call it a scaler?
The SORRCA scale points reward someone for just throwing any "scale" doodad on the truck. Then the actual driving is secondary. To me, the overwhelming primary reason for having a functioning RC vehicle is being able to drive it. If someone wants to have a scale model competition, then great, those exist also. I will admit that I have not followed the rules in a while. Maybe they tweaked the scale points to driving points ratio.

And I fully agree with your first paragraph. 2.2's on anything that's supposed to be 10th scale looks cartoonish at best. Pretending these vehicles are also submarines is silly. But even the most true RC scaler will do things it's full size counterpart won't be able to do. And just putting a semi scale body on a 2.2s will reduce it's capabilities quite a bit. (along with looking cartoonish)
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Old 12-19-2013, 06:30 AM   #90
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I don't think this should turn into an argument about which is better or takes more skill to drive. That's what the roadies and mountain bike racers do in cycling and it gets old quick. I like both and always will.

As far as the "scaler" ideas go, I don't think it should be SCX-10's out there with a lot of scale accessories (and really that's not what scale is about). I like the idea of a scale version of what the comp trucks currently are. No ladder frames or sleeping bags, but rather a capable truck that can possibly finish a course. A truck that would never be legal in a real scale comp, but looks like it could be. Some of the Class 3 guys already push this, I want to push it further.

In fact, maybe that's who we should talk to. I know a lot of guys who are now scale only, used to comp. Find out why they left, and see if they could build a truck that's scale, and also capable.

I don't like the idea of Ted's new class using any type of scale points system though.
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Old 12-19-2013, 06:39 AM   #91
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Default Re: Who is up for a new comp class

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As far as the "scaler" ideas go, I don't think it should be SCX-10's out there with a lot of scale accessories (and really that's not what scale is about). I like the idea of a scale version of what the comp trucks currently are. No ladder frames or sleeping bags, but rather a capable truck that can possibly finish a course. A truck that would never be legal in a real scale comp, but looks like it could be. Some of the Class 3 guys already push this, I want to push it further.
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Old 12-19-2013, 07:57 AM   #92
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Default Re: Who is up for a new comp class

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But if the question is how to get new people to show up, you can't deny the appeal of a truck that looks real.
Personally, yes, I can deny it. I have zero interest in anything that looks real. That is not what this hobby is about to me and I think that is what is being discussed.

To me, the hobby is about physics, mechanics, hand eye coordination, overcoming my mentality and strategy etc,.

I see to many others that the hobby is about building a car that looks like a car and just going out and having fun or some people like to just build a car in between that has a bunch of fancy parts (something to spend their money on).

Point is, there are many different personality types in this hobby. Just because I dont get scaling in our hobby does not mean that maybe we should not include it. This goes the same for me though. My ideas should be embraced also. I think thats what Ted is bringing up here. Bring people in with their scalers, let them see the other side of things and let them see.

I think the lack of interest boils down to economy, not bringing new people in and not having a place in the hobby for the new people when they do come in.

In 801, 2 yrs ago at a winter/cold horrible comp, we had about 60 people show up. The numbers have only gone down since then. To me, that is to be expected, people will lose interest. I have not seen more than maybe 5 new guys come to our comps in that period of time. IMO, that is the problem. If you had just 1 guy show up at each comp that were new and he never came back, then I think its time to look at the program and see why people are not sticking around. We dont even have them show up though. Recently I had a guy tell me something to the effect that he crawled in Utah for a year or year and a half and didnt even know we had comps here. Thats a problem!



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Originally Posted by BigSki View Post
This is how I personally look at the scalers. A nicely detailed, realistic model of a rig running on terrain that is (approximately) scaled to the vehicle? I've owned a few 1:1 4x4's during my life, I've never had one that could climb a near vertical rock face, run submerged in the water or drive down the road on 50"+ tall tires.
This is my problem with scaling. Its realistic when they want it to be and not when they dont and then that definition will change from person to person.

I think I am too anal retentive to scale. I take things too seriously. If I built a scaler, I would have to do like you mentioned. No tires over actual size, no plastic bolted together cages, no paper thin seats, no decals for interiors.

Not to pick on anybody but a great example is when the Deadbolt came out. In the review, it said something to the effect that they were sick of not having a realistic driver in the cars anymore. Then they continued on about how sick the skeleton driver was. Wait.... WTF... a skeleton is driving the car.... realistic..... LOL. Like I said, not to pick on anybody but it did make me laugh. Point is, the mentality perplexes me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by C*H*U*D View Post
I don't like the idea of Ted's new class using any type of scale points system though.
I get that his class is for the new guy but just to add, if scaling were implemented into comp crawling I would be interested to see how many went away because of that. I know I would go. Putting panels on my car and running a body in 2.2s frustrates me as is.

IMO, draw the new guy in with many types of crawling and let him decide. Let him scale and comp crawl and he will lean to which suits him best. I think comp crawling should be left on the non scale/technical side and scaling should be left for scaling.
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Old 12-19-2013, 08:06 AM   #93
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Default Re: Who is up for a new comp class

Scale and comp crawlers are apples and oranges. Or if you perfer beef and chicken tacos. I enjoy both and they both have their place. I do not think they belong on the same course. If we want another comp class make a 2.2 4wheel steer class that would be a nice addition.
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Old 12-19-2013, 10:00 AM   #94
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Default Re: Who is up for a new comp class

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I get that his class is for the new guy but just to add, if scaling were implemented into comp crawling I would be interested to see how many went away because of that. I know I would go. Putting panels on my car and running a body in 2.2s frustrates me as is.
I'm not saying to turn Comp into a scale class at all. Like I said, I like the rules and format just fine the way they are. I like Ted's idea, and I think it's great to be talking about doing something.

For me personally, I want to run against the same people, in the same class as the 2.2s trucks, only with a truck that appeals to me on a scale level. That leaves me with local Sportsman only and I'm fine with that. I'm not asking for any special treatment, and I know I'll finish dead last but it's my own personal experiment to at least try.

I started building the truck I want about 4 months ago (slow build). I really didn't think anyone would be interested in it, so I haven't been talking about it much. I was very surprised to see Ted start this thread, and I'm interested to see what becomes of this new class, but either way I plan to drive a Sporty/Scaler somewhere on 2014. People will like it or hate it.
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Old 12-19-2013, 11:16 AM   #95
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Default Re: Who is up for a new comp class

Why not just add some spec classes

1.9 spec class: MRC

2.2 spec class: Venemon Creeper, Axial AX-10 and Losi Night Crawler

Class1 spec class: Tamiya 1.9 stuff

Class2 spec class: RC4WD Trail Finder, Axial SCX-10

Class3 spac class: Wraith
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Old 12-19-2013, 11:19 AM   #96
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Default Re: Who is up for a new comp class

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Originally Posted by Jslick View Post
Scale and comp crawlers are apples and oranges. Or if you perfer beef and chicken tacos. I enjoy both and they both have their place. I do not think they belong on the same course. If we want another comp class make a 2.2 4wheel steer class that would be a nice addition.
totally agree
I have many rigs ...comp, Ultra4 rock racers, scale, and ultra scale (GI Joe Willys)

scale is huge and growing becuz it is RTR for the most part

ultra scale is anything over the top, from custom TF2's to fully custom built rigs
these guys will always be around (it's in the build)

the new Ultra4 rock racer has taken off becuz there are RTR classes and custom classes
(but just like all racing there's a lot of waiting between heats)

Comp class rigs are a breed of there own....everything about them from
the courses, to the drivers, to the rigs, are very unique.
most of the gates look impossible to a new-comer, that's becuz the course builder tries to make the course nearly impossible to start with.
(which I like)

I think the only way to get new drivers in the comp class is to build "test rigs"
If we had "Try me rigs" at each comp, we could bring friends and let them have some fun....
they don't need to keep score or time just let them try to challenge themselves and most will be hooked...like I was!

If we can get new people to a least try a comp rig, I think we can still thrive.

I will work with RC4WD (the only big guy still making comp axles) to see
if they will sponsor this idea...I would donate our chassis' maybe Voodoo, Crawl Innovations, VP
and any other vendors could help sponsor the idea as well.
Sure we can't get rigs to every club, but we could hold a contest and try to
place the rigs where they will do the most good for our hobby

I have posted a new thread in the vendors hideaway if any vendors are interested.

Last edited by ZoSo; 12-19-2013 at 12:00 PM.
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Old 12-19-2013, 01:10 PM   #97
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Default Re: Who is up for a new comp class

Thanks ZoSo for trying the "loan a crawler" for the the day program. Myself and the PARC club had a discussion late last year about this, but we would have to build and maintain it from scratch and the cost was to much for us to do it. So with some freebie sponsored parts, I'm sure we could pull that off.

I have been placing classified adds on Craigslist about our upcoming comps and it seems to be working quite well. We get at least 2+ ppl show up every comp that says they found out about the comp from Craigslist. So this has now become a staple of the club that will be continuing.

Now back to the discussion at hand. I agree with some that have said scale trucks are popular because they look real and also agree with Dlux that I personally don't care if comp rigs do . The biggest thing I see is availability.
Scale trucks have rtr versions available at hobby shops, and comp rigs do not, so this why I feel that scale has out grown comp rigs in last few years and not because they just look cooler. The biggest blunder Axial made with the XR10 was not offering that rig in a rtr version. When the ax10 arrived years ago in that orange or green box with a clear plastic front, ppl went nuts over how bad ass and space age they looked. Back then when I was brand new, and knew nothing about soldering, or building trucks, I certainly didn't want the kit version. I went straight to the rtr box and upgraded from there.

So ultimately, the way I see new ppl getting into the comp side of things, is rc manufactures need to provide us with a new rtr moa comp rig that can bought at the lhs.

So do we need a new class? Or do we need a new rtr comp rig on the market to spark interest in newbies? Or maybe we need both? This discussion could go on for days.
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Old 12-19-2013, 02:49 PM   #98
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Default Re: Who is up for a new comp class

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Thanks ZoSo for trying the "loan a crawler" for the the day program. Myself and the PARC club had a discussion late last year about this, but we would have to build and maintain it from scratch and the cost was to much for us to do it. So with some freebie sponsored parts, I'm sure we could pull that off.

I have been placing classified adds on Craigslist about our upcoming comps and it seems to be working quite well. We get at least 2+ ppl show up every comp that says they found out about the comp from Craigslist. So this has now become a staple of the club that will be continuing.

Now back to the discussion at hand. I agree with some that have said scale trucks are popular because they look real and also agree with Dlux that I personally don't care if comp rigs do . The biggest thing I see is availability.
Scale trucks have rtr versions available at hobby shops, and comp rigs do not, so this why I feel that scale has out grown comp rigs in last few years and not because they just look cooler. The biggest blunder Axial made with the XR10 was not offering that rig in a rtr version. When the ax10 arrived years ago in that orange or green box with a clear plastic front, ppl went nuts over how bad ass and space age they looked. Back then when I was brand new, and knew nothing about soldering, or building trucks, I certainly didn't want the kit version. I went straight to the rtr box and upgraded from there.

So ultimately, the way I see new ppl getting into the comp side of things, is rc manufactures need to provide us with a new rtr moa comp rig that can bought at the lhs.

So do we need a new class? Or do we need a new rtr comp rig on the market to spark interest in newbies? Or maybe we need both? This discussion could go on for days.



IMO, a ready to run comp crawler at this point in time is probably not going to happen. Fact is a RTR comp crawler that would survive comping would be in the $600+ range easily. And that is a hell of a lot for someone who might be interested in crawling, maybe.


BUT, I was thinking with this class we could get the people who have bought the RTR scalers at least OUT to the comps to see what it is all about. This class would really be about drawing people in with the vehicles they have now. After one or two comps they would be ready to upgrade their "scale" class car, or make the jump to 2.2, or 2.2s. I also see if the class became a reality it could carry all the way to national events, and the cars would get more competitive.

I know my wraith is way overpowered, and fat for any real crawling. I imagine the scale cars would evolve into lighter, better working cars as time went on, but keep the scale type looks. I know the the council of all things crawling is working on something, I just hope they keep it simple.
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Old 12-19-2013, 06:38 PM   #99
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Default Re: Who is up for a new comp class

I loaned out my 2.2s to a guy at one of our comps. He appeared to have a blast, and his buddies said he talked about the experience for days afterwards. But he never came back.....
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Old 12-19-2013, 09:23 PM   #100
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Default Re: Who is up for a new comp class

"The reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated." -Comp Crawling

Why scale guys have to keep jumping the fence to spread the rumor that comp crawling is dying off, is a great mystery to me.
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