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View Poll Results: Should the -10 point Judging bonus be changed?
Yes, give the Judges free entry in one class. 16 44.44%
Yes, give the Judges free entry in one class and $5. 6 16.67%
Yes, change the rule to ............. (post up what you think) 3 8.33%
No, keep the rule the way it is. 11 30.56%
Voters: 36. You may not vote on this poll

Thread: -10 Point Judging Bonus

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Old 01-25-2008, 03:11 PM   #61
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Brainstorming here-----I should be working!!:-P What about the judge rotating with the group and run last in that group? When it is the judges turn to run, someone from his group can judge him. That way he has seen many people run each course, now judging becomes an advantage in my eyes. Every judge now gets to see each course many times and does not have to worry about running them back to back. Throw in the free entry fee and you got it.
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Old 01-25-2008, 03:12 PM   #62
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Sweet, so I can pay all the judges myself!
LMAO!
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Old 01-25-2008, 03:15 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by THnCS View Post
Brainstorming here-----I should be working!!:-P What about the judge rotating with the group and run last in that group? When it is the judges turn to run, someone from his group can judge him. That way he has seen many people run each course, now judging becomes an advantage in my eyes. Every judge now gets to see each course many times and does not have to worry about running them back to back. Throw in the free entry fee and you got it.
I was going to throw that same thing at everyone last comp and forgot about it. I think it is a great idea, the judge moves to the next course with his group, excellent idea.
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Old 01-25-2008, 03:17 PM   #64
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Bad idea. Say that judge is more liberal on handing out reverses.

If he judges all the competitors on 1 course thay all get that advantage on that 1 course.
If he judges 1 group on every course, I'll bet your winners will be in that group;)
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Old 01-25-2008, 03:21 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by jason View Post
Bad idea. Say that judge is more liberal on handing out reverses.

If he judges all the competitors on 1 course thay all get that advantage on that 1 course.
If he judges 1 group on every course, I'll bet your winners will be in that group;)
Ahhhh, I'm a grasshopper, you are the master. I agree, everyone needs to go through that same judge.
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Old 01-25-2008, 03:29 PM   #66
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Bad idea. Say that judge is more liberal on handing out reverses.

If he judges all the competitors on 1 course thay all get that advantage on that 1 course.
If he judges 1 group on every course, I'll bet your winners will be in that group;)
Correct. It's not a bad idea thncs, except that every competitor should be judged by every judge, to keep things balanced.
Anyone want to be in my group all day?

Remember Brad's example? This isn't free points (well, it is if you judge supers and use the points towards 2.2 it is), this is to make up for points a judge accumulates from not getting to learn what lines work.
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I think it's valid too. I judged a course in supers last comp that yeilded the best score of 37. It didn't work in my advantage to judge this course, no one was going to finish. Then I'm called to run course 3. I see one guy run the last 2 gates, then I watch a guy come back from repair and run the last 3 gates. The hardest part of the course was the beginning, and I didn't get to see anyone run it. I came in and clipped the first 2 gates in a row, and almost fell off the ledge., barely finished the course with a few seconds left and one back-up would have pointed me out. I know I could have at least missed one of those 2 gates if I had seen a few others run the first half.

Then I go back to judge for a while.

Now I'm called to run course 2. I get to watch one guy before me start, but point out 1/2 way through. Now it's my turn and I didn't see anyone run the 2nd half of the course. I got lucky and cleaned it.
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I agree, step up and judge people. I'm sure I'm going to be beat, or bumped out of the top 5 for it, somewhere down the line.

Just my 2 cents.
This is true too, everyone has the opportunity to get the same benefit. But not if we change things now.
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Old 01-25-2008, 03:37 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by jason View Post
Bad idea. Say that judge is more liberal on handing out reverses.

If he judges all the competitors on 1 course thay all get that advantage on that 1 course.
If he judges 1 group on every course, I'll bet your winners will be in that group;)
Good point, Show use the way OBI WAN. I volunteer to be in that group:-P
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Old 01-25-2008, 03:43 PM   #68
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This is true too, everyone has the opportunity to get the same benefit. But not if we change things now.
It only has the same benefit to people running in the series total, not people that only run a comp here and there. It screws people on an individual comp basis, especially since there is actual prizes/cash for top finishers.

Look at what events I attended last year, the season opener and the season finale. If I was to do the same this season and only attend two comps I would get completely screwed from event #2. This only works out for people that attend every comp and are looking at the series standings.

I think it not too late to change the rule, fix the scores from the first two comps so they MORE accurately represent what should have happened and the rest of the events from here on out will be fair.
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Old 01-25-2008, 03:53 PM   #69
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It only has the same benefit to people running in the series total, not people that only run a comp here and there. It screws people on an individual comp basis, especially since there is actual prizes/cash for top finishers.

Look at what events I attended last year, the season opener and the season finale. If I was to do the same this season and only attend two comps I would get completely screwed from event #2. This only works out for people that attend every comp and are looking at the series standings.

I think it not too late to change the rule, fix the scores from the first two comps so they MORE accurately represent what should have happened and the rest of the events from here on out will be fair.
Sorry Rich, but I don't agree that you got screwed. I think Brad got screwed on course 3 by not being able to watch and come up with a game plan. The -10 only put him back to where he prolly would have been if he had seen a bunch of guys run. His skill pulled him through on course 2, an average driver might not have been able to clean the course without seeing anyone run it.
Did everyone on course 3 hit those first two gate markers? If not, I'm sure Brad could have figured out how not to if he wasn't judging.

Not trying to be a dick, just trying to point out why I think the system works. The situation at event 2 is a good example.
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Old 01-25-2008, 04:07 PM   #70
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This is good reading guys. In Norcal its been basically the same guys judging EVERY comp, its getting old and I would love to have a break. However nobody steps up and offers to judge :-(

We dont have entry fees, or anything to compensate the judges with for that matter.

From reading some of the responses it looks like if you are judging you still have to run in the same order as the rest of the guys not judging. In norcal we have been running everyone through who is not judging and afterwards everybody who was helping (6 judges, 1 photographer, 1 video) run the 3 courses. This way you aren't blindsided with a difficult course, you actually have a good chance of one of the judges running it before you, and with the judges being the vets you get to see the lines to take.
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Old 01-25-2008, 04:12 PM   #71
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This is good reading guys. In Norcal its been basically the same guys judging EVERY comp, its getting old and I would love to have a break. However nobody steps up and offers to judge :-(

We dont have entry fees, or anything to compensate the judges with for that matter.

From reading some of the responses it looks like if you are judging you still have to run in the same order as the rest of the guys not judging.
We usually try to get the judges to run in their correct place. Sometimes it happens and sometimes they just run at the end.

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In norcal we have been running everyone through who is not judging and afterwards everybody who was helping (6 judges, 1 photographer, 1 video) run the 3 courses. This way you aren't blindsided with a difficult course, you actually have a good chance of one of the judges running it before you, and with the judges being the vets you get to see the lines to take.
This sounds like a good way to do it too Brandon.
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Old 01-25-2008, 04:26 PM   #72
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Sorry Rich, but I don't agree that you got screwed. I think Brad got screwed on course 3 by not being able to watch and come up with a game plan. The -10 only put him back to where he prolly would have been if he had seen a bunch of guys run. His skill pulled him through on course 2, an average driver might not have been able to clean the course without seeing anyone run it.
Did everyone on course 3 hit those first two gate markers? If not, I'm sure Brad could have figured out how not to if he wasn't judging.

Not trying to be a dick, just trying to point out why I think the system works. The situation at event 2 is a good example.
Your not being a dick at all. I completely understand were you're coming from and you have excellent points. Good enough that you're starting to convince me that this whole -10 points idea isn't as horrible as I once though, it's not good, but not as bad as I was thinking.

If we do decide to keep this system for the rest of the season (not my first choice, but I see the complications of changing everything midway) I think we need to at minimum drop the bonus down some. Like I think Griz said earlier, -5 points would be a lot more fair. Maybe even -5 points and free entry to one class. Judging is hard and for some people can be a pretty big disadvantage and they definitely need to be compensated for it. For next year I think the whole minus points thing definitely needs to go, if not sooner.
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Old 01-25-2008, 04:32 PM   #73
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Your not being a dick at all. I completely understand were you're coming from and you have excellent points. Good enough that you're starting to convince me that this whole -10 points idea isn't as horrible as I once though, it's not good, but not as bad as I was thinking.

If we do decide to keep this system for the rest of the season (not my first choice, but I see the complications of changing everything midway) I think we need to at minimum drop the bonus down some. Like I think Griz said earlier, -5 points would be a lot more fair. Maybe even -5 points and free entry to one class. Judging is hard and for some people can be a pretty big disadvantage and they definitely need to be compensated for it. For next year I think the whole minus points thing definitely needs to go, if not sooner.
Fair enough, I just wanted to be sure people were seeing it in the proper perspective before we had a vote to change it in any way. I'm glad you were able to see my point.

I also think Rubbaneck has a good idea with the Shotgun Willie's thing.
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Old 01-25-2008, 04:50 PM   #74
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I also think Rubbaneck has a good idea with the Shotgun Willie's thing.

I'll vote for that!!!
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Old 01-25-2008, 04:53 PM   #75
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I also think Rubbaneck has a good idea with the Shotgun Willie's thing.
I'm down with that!
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Old 01-25-2008, 04:56 PM   #76
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Judge a course, get a lap dance, I don't think anyone is gonna argue with that.
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Old 01-25-2008, 05:08 PM   #77
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Not going to affect me, and since opinion's are being asked for...

You guys have 6 events, and 3 courses for each class plus the Finals course. If you add that up you're looking at 48 courses that need to be judged throughout the series. You're also registering for the complete series with your $20 payment.

I think if you want to compete and have a chance @ representing CO at the Nationals and whatever prizes are offered up for the yearend, that judgeing ONE course and maybe co-judgeing a finals course wouldn't be an issue. Call it year-end eligabilty.


I do like the lap dance option.
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Old 01-25-2008, 05:08 PM   #78
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Holy crap, I go to work and miss a long thread!

I have not read everything but rather just ran through the thread and here is my $.03

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The only thing I can think of wrong with drawing numbers is not everyone is up to date with the rules, some of our newer competitors had a lot of questions Sunday
Drawing numbers while it sounds good is not going to net good results. So a guy shows up at his first comp and now he gets to judge 60 2.2 competitors. Even a veteran crawler who gets roped into a task he was not planning on will not provide good results. Our judges need to be volunteers who stepped up before the comp began.
It is also not a good idea to have a greenhorn holding a clipboard even if it is their 3rd comp. There are many times I will stop the clock to explain to a competitor what they are allowed to do. Yes they should know the rules before they come but I think we are getting to the point where we old maggots need to be more proactive in teaching (a thread on that will be up later tonight). My first series the rules were actually explained before each comp began right after registration. That will not work now with 60+ people but there are other ways we can bring people up to speed. I think Stewie mentioned mentoring-BINGO!
Holding a clipboard is very intimidating the first couple of times (hell it is bad at Nats!) so I think it would be great for something like this to take place. I for one would not have any problems with teaching someone the ropes and am willing to do so any time I am judging.

As for the -10, if it is that much of an advantage pick up a damn clip board! The last winter series had probably 8 guys who rotated for the entire series. We could not get people to help and it came down to "if we only have two judges we only run two courses." It may be a bribe but they are still volunteering and not being forced to waste half of their day looking at the same course.
If they were getting a -10 each time the judged then yes, that is to much but come on, you get -10 ONCE per class for the whole freaking series! In the long run it is NOT going to kick you out of your nationals invite because you have not yet stepped up to help. For a guy like me -10 is not going to help as I have always been a middle of the pack driver but I have seen guys like Griz who can actually do well suffer because they had to quickly run 2or 3 courses so they could get back to their course. You may think it is not fair to you when a judge gets a bonus but is it fair to a judge who helps out several times over the series? I think not.
I am willing to bet money that all of the guys who have judged the first two events will be judging again before the series is over.

Am I bashing the new guys, no. I want them to be well versed in the rules and how they work (not just reading them the night before) before they step up to the plate.

In short, quit complaining and get that bonus for yourself because they are earned, not just handed out.
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Old 01-25-2008, 05:19 PM   #79
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Judge a course, get a lap dance, I don't think anyone is gonna argue with that.

Found one that will sit on your lap Jason!



Oh Ya!
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Old 01-25-2008, 05:26 PM   #80
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Slugz, laying it all out in black and white. You scared me a bit.
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