-10 Point Judging Bonus

[Wrecker]

Alright, so I feel that the -10 point bonus for judging is completely unfair and should be changed. This is why and what I propose to replace it with. I have felt this way since the new rules came out and after seeing how the first two comps have ended up and after talking to a couple CO drivers that feel the same way I think something needs to be changed.

First, it completely misrepresents how people actually drove that day. The final standings and awards are not going to the best driver, they're going to the ok driver that started off with -10 points.

In both the first and second comps of the winner series the first place guy only won because of a judging bonus. Which is completely unfair in my opinion. The compitions are about drving the best, NOT judging. Especially when spots to nationals are on the line.

What I really don't understand is that there is no way this would fly at Nationals so why is able to fly here? We wouldn't give the award of the National Champion to the 4th or 5th place finisher just because he judged one of the events. I know everyone would be pissed about that and it's completely unfair to all of the guys that EARNED their rankings.

I'm not just talking about the top spots either. A lot of the people that have judged didn't place in the top 5 anyways, but it's just as unfair to all of the people that got bumped back multiple rankings even if it's for 40th place or something.

This isn't like the scale series were you get deductions for scale accessories, being scale is the whole point of the comp. Translate that over and judging is the whole point of the comp? NO.

What I think would be a lot more fair is to give the judges a free entry into the class of their choice, or even pay each judge an additional $5.

I understand that there definitely needs to be an incentive for judges to help get more people judging so that it's not the same people every comp and more people understand the rules and how everything works.

I personally would be fine with each of the top three guys getting $5 or $10 less payout so that that way the judges get rewarded. Judging is definitely not easy (especially the 2.2 class with near 50 competitors) and those judges definitely need some reward for their comitment. I feel that a cash reward would be more of an incentive personally and it keeps it fair for everyone.

I would like this rule to be changed and the results for the last two comps to be changed to reward the people with the positions the EARNED. In no way am I saying that the prize money/goods should be redistributed to different people though. That's the way the rules were at those comps and those prizes/money should stay with the people that got them at those comps.

I also know that all the score sheets take many hours to adjust and I can garuntee that Jason doesn't want to go back and edit more score sheets again so I am willing to take the time and go back and fix the result sheets for both comps and the series. (I absolutely hate when people complain but don't want to put in the effort to actually do anything, so I'm trying to take all of the burdon here since I'm bringing this up)

So what do all of you guys think?

[dirk379]

Our comps are free, and last comp our judges didnt get -10 pts for judging.

I've never heard of it, did they just make this rule? Or is it a local thing only?

But to me it sounds stupid.

[Brandon]

Originally Posted by dirk379

Our comps are free, and last comp our judges didnt get -10 pts for judging.

I've never heard of it, did they just make this rule? Or is it a local thing only?

But to me it sounds stupid.

Your in the CO forum

[Wrecker]

Originally Posted by dirk379

Our comps are free, and last comp our judges didnt get -10 pts for judging.

I've never heard of it, did they just make this rule? Or is it a local thing only?

But to me it sounds stupid.

Yes, this is a CO thing only.
It's a $5 entry per class, but 100% of the entry fee's get paid out to the top three guys in each class at the end of the day.

I think it's great. It really makes you try and drive well and when you get top three is REALLY cool.

[TURTLE]

I 100% agree with you buddy, it has nothing to do with driving so why does it affect driving status???

[30percent]

I need to get into a comp but I have shown up to watch. This was the part I thought was weird, but because my vote doesn’t really count yet I only poked a few ?'s about it in other threads. Nobody answered.

At Rat after a driver takes the stand in Qual or Main they turn marshal the next race. If you don't you get a lap deducted from your qual/main.

I think the best way is to have everyone judge the next driver after they complete the course. Because you stagger the start people should judge different people each round.

By doing this the drivers will get more eye time on the rocks that helps them on the next run... identify the hot spots and such.

[BENDER]

Originally Posted by 30percent

I think the best way is to have everyone judge the next driver after they complete the course. Because you stagger the start people should judge different people each round.

By doing this the drivers will get more eye time on the rocks that helps them on the next run... identify the hot spots and such.

If you do this there is no consistensy in the judging of any of the courses. I prefer to have one judge on the same course the whole time, then everyone gets scored somewhat evenly.

[Wrecker]

Originally Posted by 30percent

I need to get into a comp but I have shown up to watch. This was the part I thought was weird, but because my vote doesn’t really count yet I only poked a few ?'s about it in other threads. Nobody answered.

At Rat after a driver takes the stand in Qual or Main they turn marshal the next race. If you don't you get a lap deducted from your qual/main.

I think the best way is to have everyone judge the next driver after they complete the course. Because you stagger the start people should judge different people each round.

By doing this the drivers will get more eye time on the rocks that helps them on the next run... identify the hot spots and such.

Just fyi, everybodies vote counts, you have just as big of an influence that anybody else does, as well as evey other person on here. Make your opnion heard!

The problem with eveyone judging the following is so many of the rules are subjective to each person on how or when points are incured. As long as one person judges every single driver on one course everyones scores are they same. It's the only way to keep it fair for everone.

[Wrecker]

Originally Posted by BENDER

If you do this there is no consistensy in the judging of any of the courses. I prefer to have one judge on the same course the whole time, then everyone gets scored somewhat evenly.

Ya beat me to it.

Brad, fyi, I'm not hatin on you in any way or pissed at you personally about any of this. It just so happens that you ended up being one of the main people this revolved around. No hard feelings.

[sloppy]

I am not a Colorado guy but we try the everyone marshal thing in NOSTR and well it works for awhile but once the crowd starts to grow, and different people score differently or wont score right it is all bad. we had to assign people to score. the -10 point thing is kinda crazy though.

[BENDER]

No offense taken.

The only problem I see with getting paid over points awarded, is it doesn't force people to judge. I'll gladly kick back and shoot video, over judging all day for $15. That's why I volunteered to judge the first 2 events, for the points, now I've got them and I have to drive the rest of the series to win. It really doesn't matter to me, but I think that was jason's reasoning behind the -10 decsion.

[Roadbiker3]

Well wrecker I do not attend many comps but I will say that if I was in first place and the only way someone beat me was because of a judging deduction I would be pretty pissed, judging does not change the way someone drove or performed that day. The idea of Free entry or $5 dollars on top of free entry makes a hell of alot of sense. When I first read about this I couldn't believe this was not brought up before it was put into effect. Just my 2 cents, I do plan on attending more comps and would hate for this to be a reason why I did not place top 3 not like I would anyway but hey it could happen. Thank you for making your voice heard I think it is a good idea to pay the judges 5 on top of free entry as an incentive.

Jim

[Grizzly4x4]

Originally Posted by 30percent

I need to get into a comp but I have shown up to watch. This was the part I thought was weird, but because my vote doesn’t really count yet I only poked a few ?'s about it in other threads. Nobody answered.

At Rat after a driver takes the stand in Qual or Main they turn marshal the next race. If you don't you get a lap deducted from your qual/main.

I think the best way is to have everyone judge the next driver after they complete the course. Because you stagger the start people should judge different people each round.

By doing this the drivers will get more eye time on the rocks that helps them on the next run... identify the hot spots and such.

Judging is different from marshalling. You need to have the same judge on each course all day because there will be differences in how people call things.

When Jason first told me about the idea I thought it was great. Judges don't get to watch other drivers on the other courses and come up with a game plan. I know it has hurt me in the past. Judging hurts most of the people that volunteer to do it, I truly believe that. I think it is good to reward the judges but perhaps the 10 points is too much. At the first evnt I actually finished in 5th by "driving" points and beat Bender for the first time in my life. With the judging bonuses I ended up in 8th place.

I never thought 10 points would make such a big difference but looking back at the scores it hasn't made that big of a difference in the big picture.
It made a big difference in 2.2 at Event 1 because the final scores really came down to only 1 course, the other 2 courses were 38 or 39 for almost everyone.
At Event 2 it made a difference in super for Brad but now he has used up all of his bonuses.
At Event 1 it made no real difference in Super cuz everyone used the bonus for 2.2 and at Event 2 it had no effect on the top 10 for 2.2.

Event 1
2.2 class-Big effect on top 10
Super-No effect on any of the entries

Event 2
2.2 class-No effect on top 10
super class-Affected 1st and 10th out of the top 10.

Was I disappointed to lose my 5th place spot at event 1 in 2.2? Yes, but I don't see it as ruining the scoring system or anyone's chance at Nationals. The one thing I would say is that I think if you judge super, the bonus should be good only for super, not for 2.2. The bonus is there because you didn't get to watch that class, if you judge super you still get to watch everyone in 2.2 run.

At Nationals, drivers don't judge so unless people want to volunteer to be permanent judges we need something to make an incentive to judge. I used to have to judge at every single event cuz people always had an excuse why they didn't want to do it.

[Wrecker]

Originally Posted by BENDER

No offense taken.

The only problem I see with getting paid over points awarded, is it doesn't force people to judge. I'll gladly kick back and shoot video, over judging all day for $15. That's why I volunteered to judge the first 2 events, for the points, now I've got them and I have to drive the rest of the series to win. It really doesn't matter to me, but I think that was jason's reasoning behind the -10 decsion.

Cool.

I understand why that was the reasoning behind the points. I personally think saving $5 or even saving $5 and getting $5 is more of an incentive though. That could just be because I'm so freakin poor though.

Originally Posted by Roadbiker3

Well wrecker I do not attend many comps but I will say that if I was in first place and the only way someone beat me was because of a judging deduction I would be pretty pissed, judging does not change the way someone drove or performed that day. The idea of Free entry or $5 dollars on top of free entry makes a hell of alot of sense. When I first read about this I couldn't believe this was not brought up before it was put into effect. Just my 2 cents, I do plan on attending more comps and would hate for this to be a reason why I did not place top 3 not like I would anyway but hey it could happen. Thank you for making your voice heard I think it is a good idea to pay the judges 5 on top of free entry as an incentive.

Jim

I think this should have been brought up before it was final also, but the guys behind the scenes have to make a lot of decisions about this stuff and can't afford to hassle with everyone's opinion on everything. So I can understand why everything isn't brought up before hand.

[racerx]

I tend to perform worse when I judge which is why I think Jason gave this a try. Trying to judge everyone else then scramble to drive the other courses without watching anyone drive them is definitely not easy! I do see your point though and I agree it is not entirely fair, I think we should should just pull numbers or something and make everyone take a shot at judging.... may be good, may be bad but we won't know unless we try it.

[Wrecker]

Originally Posted by Grizzly4x4

Judging is different from marshalling. You need to have the same judge on each course all day because there will be differences in how people call things.

When Jason first told me about the idea I thought it was great. Judges don't get to watch other drivers on the other courses and come up with a game plan. I know it has hurt me in the past. Judging hurts most of the people that volunteer to do it, I truly believe that. I think it is good to reward the judges but perhaps the 10 points is too much. At the first evnt I actually finished in 5th by "driving" points and beat Bender for the first time in my life. With the judging bonuses I ended up in 8th place.

I never thought 10 points would make such a big difference but looking back at the scores it hasn't made that big of a difference in the big picture.
It made a big difference in 2.2 at Event 1 because the final scores really came down to only 1 course, the other 2 courses were 38 or 39 for almost everyone.
At Event 2 it made a difference in super for Brad but now he has used up all of his bonuses.
At Event 1 it made no real difference in Super cuz everyone used the bonus for 2.2 and at Event 2 it had no effect on the top 10 for 2.2.

Event 1
2.2 class-Big effect on top 10
Super-No effect on any of the entries

Event 2
2.2 class-No effect on top 10
super class-Affected 1st and 10th out of the top 10.

Was I disappointed to lose my 5th place spot at event 1 in 2.2? Yes, but I don't see it as ruining the scoring system or anyone's chance at Nationals. The one thing I would say is that I think if you judge super, the bonus should be good only for super, not for 2.2. The bonus is there because you didn't get to watch that class, if you judge super you still get to watch everyone in 2.2 run.

At Nationals, drivers don't judge so unless people want to volunteer to be permanent judges we need something to make an incentive to judge. I used to have to judge at every single event cuz people always had an excuse why they didn't want to do it.

Good points Griz.

I see what you're saying about the big picture and for the series is doesn't really effect much, but what about those people that can't go to Nationals?

I for one personally doubt that I will be able to make it to Nationals due to starting a new job in Grand Junction, so for me every event is just as important as the next. Event #2 was big for me and the scores for that event are flawed (for supers), which is what I'm getting at. On an event to event basis the current system is unfair.

If it helps I'll be a dedicated judge for at least one class for every event I go to regardless if there is a reward or not.

[Wrecker]

Originally Posted by racerx

I tend to perform worse when I judge which is why I think Jason gave this a try. Trying to judge everyone else then scramble to drive the other courses without watching anyone drive them is definitely not easy! I do see your point though and I agree it is not entirely fair, I think we should should just pull numbers or something and make everyone take a shot at judging.... may be good, may be bad but we won't know unless we try it.

I like the pulling numbers out of a hat idea.
If we did this for all 6 judges every event it would be pretty fair.

[racerx]

This would be easy too, Just pull your running order # then put it in another hat and when everyone has drawn a number and the first hat is empty just mix it up and pull 6 numbers out. Then for the finals whoever did not make top 5 ( 6th place) judges that class. That way he can learn what he screwed up!

[Grizzly4x4]

Originally Posted by wrecker

Good points Griz.

I see what you're saying about the big picture and for the series is doesn't really effect much, but what about those people that can't go to Nationals?

I for one personally doubt that I will be able to make it to Nationals due to starting a new job in Grand Junction, so for me every event is just as important as the next. Event #2 was big for me and the scores for that event are flawed (for supers), which is what I'm getting at. On an event to event basis the current system is unfair.

Trust me I was just as bummed about my "bump", I've got people I would like to represent well by placing better than 8th. Every event is important to me as well.
I think that guys like Brad and Jason P can still do well even when they judge, Jeremiah has proven to do well whenever he shows up, and Stew is proving to be a real contender this year. When these guys get the bonus it makes a big difference compared to someone that is not as skilled as them.

I understand what you are saying, and like I said maybe 10 points was too much, but I still think the judging bonus is important and think it should stay.

Originally Posted by wrecker

If it helps I'll be a dedicated judge for at least one class for every event I go to regardless if there is a reward or not.

That would be great, and I might even do that for the super class, now we just need 4-5 more people to do it though.

[Grizzly4x4]

Originally Posted by racerx

I tend to perform worse when I judge which is why I think Jason gave this a try. Trying to judge everyone else then scramble to drive the other courses without watching anyone drive them is definitely not easy! I do see your point though and I agree it is not entirely fair, I think we should should just pull numbers or something and make everyone take a shot at judging.... may be good, may be bad but we won't know unless we try it.

Originally Posted by wrecker

I like the pulling numbers out of a hat idea.
If we did this for all 6 judges every event it would be pretty fair.

I agree that this is not a bad idea. If you want to compete, you need to know the rules well enough to judge as well.

I don't see how we could change anything this year though. I was bumped out of 5th place so I never got to run the finals course at event 1. How could that be changed now?