"Sportsman" class feedback

[monkeyracer]

Originally Posted by Almighty Malach

And don't say we have 1.9's for a drivers class; there's a reason why there's so many for sale...

nice!

[TURTLE]

Originally Posted by monkeyracer

It seemed like you were saying that you would be restricted to only the sportsman, even if you had a 1.9 or anything, you could only run the sportsman. I think that's why Dan responded that way.

Even though the class is a kind of gateway class, it can be a lot of fun for pros to drive a stripped rig, and get back into the "good ol days" before there was dig, when tlts were the standard fare.

That was kinda the idea, but I did also post I was just talking(twice) about it with someone, and trying to figure out a way if it could be included into the winter series. This by no means is a definate of any type it was more a suggestion. But think about it this way what series in the world lets you race, drive, ride, whatever in a pro class and the sportsman class (amateur)?
I have come from a bike back ground and you are either amateur or pro, not both.

Originally Posted by Almighty Malach

So just eliminate people with more than one truck? Shouldn't we be looking at this like a spec class so it's a driver's class and a gateway class? And don't say we have 1.9's for a drivers class; there's a reason why there's so many for sale...

No not eliminate them, you need to try this whole reading thing out, next time the whole thing, I was talking due to time constraints, and calling this what it has been mentioned as by Jason and other members of the rules committee a "gate way class".
If it a gate way class so be it if its a 2006 class that is a different story, to me however sportsman says something of the level of drivers not the rigs.

[TURTLE]

Originally Posted by Almighty Malach

And don't say we have 1.9's for a drivers class; there's a reason why there's so many for sale...

So what is that reason? They have no dig? they handle like a TLT from a few years ago? They only have 2 channels? Have limited voltage regulations? Tire size regulations?
Oh wait sounds like something else huh?
Who is to say that this new class won't be a repeat?

[jkwrangler08]

So here's the opinion of a NewB just starting comps..

I have a 1.9.. I've modified the heck out of it and I haven't even driven in a comp yet.. Lot's of reasons for that, but I did it to have a chance at being competitive when I first get stated.

Now.. I'd love to have a 2.2. But after watching you guys drive, no way could I be competitive with anything close to an RTR..

To me, begin able to get a stock LCC, Axial or even a Creeper and having a chance at placing excites the heck out of me.. I think if you put some sort of limit on the motors, batteries, dig and keeping the tires to off the shelf items, you start to level the playing field.

I also like the "handicap" system. Something like they use in golf. Tough to keep track of though.

Anyway, just my $.02... I'd be more apt to get into 2.2 if you come up with a class like this..

Thanks...

[Cruzin Illusion]

Originally Posted by TURTLE

Why would you want to run the other classes, was what I was saying, especially since you can't afford dig. How can you afford other crawlers. After all this class was introduced as a gate way class. Now chill out and go back to never answering your phone.

WOW!!! Someones pants are on a little tight

[Cruzin Illusion]

Originally Posted by TURTLE

But think about it this way what series in the world lets you race, drive, ride, whatever in a pro class and the sportsman class (amateur)?
I have come from a bike back ground and you are either amateur or pro, not both.

I completely agree with this statement.

There needs to be a definative answer to this question of is it a gateway/amateur class or an additional class like 1.9's.

[TURTLE]

Originally Posted by Cruzin Illusion

WOW!!! Someones pants are on a little tight

Hey credit card slingin newb, watch it!

[Cruzin Illusion]

Originally Posted by TURTLE

Hey credit card slingin newb, watch it!

Nice Ty. I think your kid is keeping you up too much and you need more sleep.

[TURTLE]

Or butt out and learn who someone of these people really are. Its a accurate statement.
Im just getting sick of these money grubbing stores trying to take over.

[chrisjlittle]

If this kind of bickering is gonna be the norm, I'm gonna turn all my rigs into scalers, sportsman class or no. Or maybe take up knitting, that would be way more fun than this bull.

[TURTLE]

Its not a bad idea Chris, I hear you can learn to knit on line. I'll go look now.

[Almighty Malach]

Originally Posted by TURTLE

But think about it this way what series in the world lets you race, drive, ride, whatever in a pro class and the sportsman class (amateur)?
I have come from a bike back ground and you are either amateur or pro, not both.

I understand the point you were trying to get across now. No need to get jumpy, it's just the internet and there's gonna be misunderstandings.

No not eliminate them, you need to try this whole reading thing out, next time the whole thing, I was talking due to time constraints, and calling this what it has been mentioned as by Jason and other members of the rules committee a "gate way class".
If it a gate way class so be it if its a 2006 class that is a different story, to me however sportsman says something of the level of drivers not the rigs.

Given that sportsman is implying a novice driver, you saying run either 2.2 or sportsman, not both. Ok, what about the newb who has a 1.9 and wants a 2.2? Would they be allowed to run sportsman also, then eventually move to "pro"?

Ty, I'm not aguing with you just to be a pain in the ass these are just questions I've heard in the last few days.

Originally Posted by TURTLE

Or butt out and learn who someone of these people really are. Its a accurate statement.
Im just getting sick of these money grubbing stores trying to take over.

Me too. All you can do is wait til people see how bad they are getting ripped off and wise up.

[paintballer9876]

Originally Posted by TURTLE

Or butt out and learn who someone of these people really are. Its a accurate statement.
Im just getting sick of these money grubbing stores trying to take over.

That takes us down to 2 series in colorado that give cash, of which by what i have seen run in the winter (in colorado that means snow/rain and cold, electronics dont like water ). Hobbytown pockets a crap load of money and gives very little in return, and run at the same place every single time, rchobbies gives 100% payout in gift cards its not as good as cash but better than 25% payout in giftcards :?. But In there summer series it was many different places, like palmer park, daniels park..... I will run the winter series and the finishline comps and the rch friday night comps. Im not defending hobbytown, and for the time being will not go down there and spend my money, rch is taking a step in the right direction, and hobbytown will rarely ever see me there until they change things.

Its seems someone has had a bad day/week:-(

Back on topic, i think it should be you are in one 2.2 class or the other, not both. However you should be able to run any other non 2.2 class regardless.

[TURTLE]

Originally Posted by Almighty Malach

....

All I am doing is trying to throw out ideas to see how this can be worked into the day at a winter series comp. I highly doubt there is enough time to run 4 classes, its hard enough with the way things are.
My mind set is they either over lap or it does not happen and it runs as its own separate entity.
Unless someone has some good constructive ideas...

Originally Posted by paintballer9876

Its seems someone has had a bad day/week:-(

Not a bad day at all this thread is getting on my nerves and some of the people posting in it.
I feel some of the ideas are a little self centered and narrow minded.
I am very open to this thread and look forward to the class, Im just looking for ideas here, not fighting or people being idiots (my posts along with others).

I do however believe that once in this class you should stay in it all season.
Can't go from beginner to pro in a season right?

[Neil76]

I 100% agree it should be driver based and you can't run both!

As far as an idea to fit it into the same day at a comp I thought you might be able to have 2 courses set up in the same area with different color gates. A sportsman course and pro course, then when you walk up the judge can look at sheet and see if signed up for pro or sport and then show you your course. You then still have the same amount of judges needed and all people are still in same area to watch/help spotsmans guys. Just and idea

[monkeyracer]

Originally Posted by TURTLE

All I am doing is trying to throw out ideas to see how this can be worked into the day at a winter series comp. I highly doubt there is enough time to run 4 classes, its hard enough with the way things are.
My mind set is they either over lap or it does not happen and it runs as its own separate entity.
Unless someone has some good constructive ideas...



Not a bad day at all this thread is getting on my nerves and some of the people posting in it.
I feel some of the ideas are a little self centered and narrow minded.
I am very open to this thread and look forward to the class, Im just looking for ideas here, not fighting or people being idiots (my posts along with others).

I do however believe that once in this class you should stay in it all season.
Can't go from beginner to pro in a season right?

Originally Posted by Neil76

I 100% agree it should be driver based and you can't run both!

As far as an idea to fit it into the same day at a comp I thought you might be able to have 2 courses set up in the same area with different color gates. A sportsman course and pro course, then when you walk up the judge can look at sheet and see if signed up for pro or sport and then show you your course. You then still have the same amount of judges needed and all people are still in same area to watch/help spotsmans guys. Just and idea

The way I see it, right now, one driver can run a max of 3 classes; Amateur 1.9s, Pro 2.2, and Emptied Pockets Supers. If we add the Sportsman 2.2, but only let the drivers choose between either pro or sportsman, they are still only running the same # of courses, and it should take almost the same amount of time.

Like neil said, design the course for pro and sportsman at the same time, if the driver is in the sportsman class they run the sportsman course, if they are in the pro class, they run the pro course. Same # of drivers, same # of judges, I don't see how that would make it take longer if any than the way we do it now.

I agree you shouldn't be able to switch classes back and forth, but I see nothing wrong with starting sportsman and upgrading mid season. You would only lose your chance at the top spots since your points wouldn't transfer over.


I feel like there are a lot of people that can see this happening in a good way, and ty seems a little too pessimistic about it. I will somewhat agree that the hobby stores are getting money for nothing, it seems.
I remember when I first started, went to my first comp thinking it was 100% payout back to the top drivers. Then I find out it's just store credit/gift cards, and I started to question, what does the hobby store actually do for this comp? Do they even own the land or materials right there? They aren't tossing around giveaways to the top drivers, winners just get "free parts" (by using their gift cards in the store.)

I agree there needs to be change in the way certain comps are run, but that's for another thread, another argument.

This thread, should be focused on feedback for the sportsman class.

As it stands, my rig is a sportsman rig, as long as i don't use dig, and I'm still new enough to want to run in this class. If there's just gonna be a bunch of BS to go along with it, then I'd rather do what Chris said and just build a scaler and play in the mountains.

[THnCS]

Not to come to Ty's defense, but I think his pants are a little tight. Love ya buddy Ty along with quite a few others come from when this was just a bunch of friends getting together, talking shit and competing against each other. There was no other series, hobby stores getting involved or even sponsored drivers. It was basic and fun, I see his point of money getting involved and changing things. We all new it was going to happen. Enough about the bitchy money hungry businesses.

As far as the Sportsman class goes, I see it like this. It is a gateway class for Newb drivers to get into the hobby. I personally do not see enough newb's showing up for this class on a consistant basis for it to last. If it is opened up to all other drivers, it will survive and the newbs will then have pro's running with them and learning. I know I learned so much from Bender and Griz "Thanks" that it has made me the driver I am now. Not that I am that good, but they really showed me the ropes and how to manage my rig. But, allowing the pros to run in the sportsman, we will have 2 huge 2.2 classes at the comps, along with the other two classes.

This is where I see Ty's concerns. It is not unusual for us to get 50 2.2 drivers at a comp. What happens if everyone runs both? or 50 pro 2.2 and 20 Sportsman. That is 70 2.2 drivers, not to mention 10-20 1.9's, 10-15 Supers, Now you are looking at a 13hr day just in drive time on courses and that is if the next driver is ready the moment the last one gets done. No taking lunch, basically running like robots. These totals are based off of three 5 min courses for each class, no finals either. I know all the regular pro drivers have a rig ready at home, or the parts to build one to compete in this class. I know I have one at home that is ready to rollI see it as a catch 22, damed if you do, damned if you don't.

Me personally, like I said before. The only rules I want to see in this is, only 2 channels being used, no dig and no MOA. Everything else is fair game as long as it fits in the normal 2.2 rules. I don't see any of the other upgrades helping a driver, other than strengthening the rig so it does not break.

We can bitch all day long about this. It comes down to this:

1. Newb only class-- Without pro drivers in it, are they learning anything,
will it survive???

2. Is there enough time in the day for it?

I am all for the class as it would be more drive time with my crawler, but the above 2 questions have to be answered!!

[monkeyracer]

Originally Posted by THnCS

Not to come to Ty's defense, but I think his pants are a little tight. Love ya buddy Ty along with quite a few others come from when this was just a bunch of friends getting together, talking shit and competing against each other. There was no other series, hobby stores getting involved or even sponsored drivers. It was basic and fun, I see his point of money getting involved and changing things. We all new it was going to happen. Enough about the bitchy money hungry businesses.

As far as the Sportsman class goes, I see it like this. It is a gateway class for Newb drivers to get into the hobby. I personally do not see enough newb's showing up for this class on a consistant basis for it to last. If it is opened up to all other drivers, it will survive and the newbs will then have pro's running with them and learning. I know I learned so much from Bender and Griz "Thanks" that it has made me the driver I am now. Not that I am that good, but they really showed me the ropes and how to manage my rig. But, allowing the pros to run in the sportsman, we will have 2 huge 2.2 classes at the comps, along with the other two classes.

This is where I see Ty's concerns. It is not unusual for us to get 50 2.2 drivers at a comp. What happens if everyone runs both? or 50 pro 2.2 and 20 Sportsman. That is 70 2.2 drivers, not to mention 10-20 1.9's, 10-15 Supers, Now you are looking at a 13hr day just in drive time on courses and that is if the next driver is ready the moment the last one gets done. No taking lunch, basically running like robots. These totals are based off of three 5 min courses for each class, no finals either. I know all the regular pro drivers have a rig ready at home, or the parts to build one to compete in this class. I know I have one at home that is ready to rollI see it as a catch 22, damed if you do, damned if you don't.

So if we had 70 drivers show up for the current 2.2 class, then what? it will still take the same amount of time. If you want to, how about limiting the total number of 2.2 drivers, (as has been done in the past) basically, the first 50 that show up, regardless of what class they run, get to drive. It will only take longer than the current system if we let people drive in BOTH 2.2 and sportsman.

I think a person can run pro in one series and sportsman in a different series. They are different series, and as far as I know, in other forms of competitive sports, you can run in pro class and amatuer class as long as the series' are unrelated.

So someone can run 2.2 Pro in the Crawlerado Winter series, but also run 2.2 Sportsman in the FinishLineRC Winter Series. What is the harm in that?

Originally Posted by THnCS

Me personally, like I said before. The only rules I want to see in this is, only 2 channels being used, no dig and no MOA. Everything else is fair game as long as it fits in the normal 2.2 rules. I don't see any of the other upgrades helping a driver, other than strengthening the rig so it does not break.

We can bitch all day long about this. It comes down to this:

1. Newb only class-- Without pro drivers in it, are they learning anything,
will it survive???

2. Is there enough time in the day for it?

I am all for the class as it would be more drive time with my crawler, but the above 2 questions have to be answered!!

Keep it simple:

2 Channels only can be used (got a 6 channel radio, fine, just only use 2 channels), dig can be installed but not used.

The only reason people want battery or motor limits is because we'd want to keep what stock electronics are capable of, so people aren't bitching about having to upgrade their electronics to stay competitive. Keep in mind that any motor can be geared high or low, so it wouldn't matter how many turns it has. Also keep in mind the stock AX10 RTR comes with a 27T motor. As far as limiting these, I'd still say keep voltage to 8.4, but allow any motor.

Allow any commercially available tire, as long as it's 2.2 and under 6".

Allow metal upgrades, as long as there's no clear performance gain. Allow BTA.

[69CrazyHorse]

I started crawling in February 2009 with an:

Axial ARTR
Goat 18.5
No Dig
AIrtronics M8(had it for 8 years)

Obviously I was not competitive as I did not have the rig or the experience to be. I quickly spent close to $1500(including original costs) upgrading my axial and still was not greatly competitive. Than once my driving got a little better I switched to an MOA(another $1000).

I knew at first that I was not going to finish in the top 5-10 in comps because I needed to learn to drive and learn rig setup. I Would think that this class would be meant to get people into crawling. Most people I know who have been introduced to crawling were introduced by friends who are already in it or are already veterans of RC just not crawling as I was.

If they are RC Veterans than chances are that they already have some suitable TX, RX, ESC, Motors laying around.

If they were introduced by friends than typically their friends would tell them which rig would be the best to start with and how to set it up.

If the whole point is to get more people into crawling than the class is a great Idea but think about the following.

1. 2 channel TX (my M8 which I have used for years is 3 channel why would I have needed to by a 2 channel even though I was not using the 3rd)

2. Motor Limits & Battery limits (who cares its not like its gonna make someone win if they dont know how to use them) also you cannot limit motors if people are using the LCC unless they want to fry one every comp.

3. No MOA(this is not encouraging because than they have to buy a new rig to be competitive when they move to Pro class) there are only a few people out there that truly are top 5 material with a shafty. Ultimately most people will have to spend more money to continue progression once they bump classes. I wish I would have started with an MOA as I would have more money in my pocket now. This is also true for many of us who want to get our children into crawling and do not want to build a shafty just to switch them to an MOA as they progress. Why not just let them drive without the dig.


My vote is to just make a no dig class for newer drivers and once they win it a couple times they move out of the class. I like the idea of having 2 different lines set up with the same judges in the same area to streamline the flow.

In regards to Hobby Shops taking over here are my thoughts. It would be a damn shame if they were not involved. I would not have gotten into crawling if I had not stopped by the hobby shop to pick up parts for my other vehicles and been invited to come by and watch a comp. I am displeased with how some of them handle it though. I think HT is a rip off as they keep all the entrance fees even after many of us gave money to add rocks to it. RCH Aurora returns all the money in crawler bucks which is good for me because I am going to spend the money anyways on parts for one car or the other. Out of all the $5 fees I have given them I have probably doubled that amount in door prizes and would have came out further ahead if I had done better in their outdoor series. It is essential that we try to support the LHS's or the RC hobby in general will not bring in as many new people.

[THnCS]

Originally Posted by monkeyracer

So if we had 70 drivers show up for the current 2.2 class, then what? it will still take the same amount of time. If you want to, how about limiting the total number of 2.2 drivers, (as has been done in the past) basically, the first 50 that show up, regardless of what class they run, get to drive. It will only take longer than the current system if we let people drive in BOTH 2.2 and sportsman. .

That is something we have always wondered about and is a good question? We have limited the pro comp to the first 50 for the last few years. Do you limit 2.2 drivers as a whole to 50 or 50 per class??? If you limit the total # for both classes as a whole to 50, you are limiting the growth and going to piss people off that drive 2 hrs and find out the comp is full.

Originally Posted by monkeyracer

I think a person can run pro in one series and sportsman in a different series. They are different series, and as far as I know, in other forms of competitive sports, you can run in pro class and amatuer class as long as the series' are unrelated.

So someone can run 2.2 Pro in the Crawlerado Winter series, but also run 2.2 Sportsman in the FinishLineRC Winter Series. What is the harm in that?
.

No offense to Finishline or any of the other series, we are talking about the main CO series with this. This is what Ty/Patrick are concerned about. It is what Griz is talking about also, he is the rules commitee person for the CO national club. What the others do is up to them. If you ran 2.2 pro in the CO series and Sportsman in another series, Who cares. This is to see if we have enough time to do everything in the CO winter series. Every other series will have to decide that on there own.