Ideas for next season Scale Series

[Rogue]

What do you want to see for the second season?
Locations???
Rule Changes???
What did you like, and what didn't you like.
What do you want from this next season???
Post up ideas/concerns and we'll try to get everything ironed out and get the next series started in March.
Thanks

[bmx_ican92]

maybe a hardcore class and a weekend warrior class?

[lwb Sami]

Why don't you guys come south a little, I could help you organize at Palmer park. We also know a couple other places between Denver and the Springs

[monkeyracer]

Originally Posted by Rogue

What do you want to see for the second season?
Locations???
Rule Changes???
What did you like, and what didn't you like.
What do you want from this next season???
Post up ideas/concerns and we'll try to get everything ironed out and get the next series started in March.
Thanks

Locations:
I like a lot of the places we went this year, but I would like to see some new places as well. I PM'd you about a place I'd like to use, and will call the county today to find out what is up with it, and if we are allowed to run there or not.
We've got drivers from all over the area, so it's hard finding a "Central" place. If we get enough notice to something further away, then it should be fine. So, palmer, buffalo creek, etc would be good choices. As long as it seems fair (one month it's on the west side of town, the next it's on the east side, etc.)

Rule Changes:
I think there should be a change to the point system.
I think we should adopt some of the new MSD rules, like +2 for winching, per winch-anchor (move the winch point = another +2) and +5 or +7 (rather than +10) for each "rescue" (buddy winch.)
Helps make you think about how to drive the course and whether the +2 is worth saving from hitting a gate or is it just worth taking 2 reverses to line up better.
I like their 1/4 rollback rule, especially for rigs without drag brake or with a weak drag brake. (XL-5 ESC or Titan Motors?) Also helps if you are releasing from a winch point and the rig rolls back a little.

We also need to get a little deeper into distinguishing how many points tube/metal/custom work is worth. The point being that if someone takes the time to make a nice cage, or do something custom, they should be rewarded more than someone just throwing a scale sleeping bag in the bed.

I like our rules now, for the most part, so a mixture of what is best between the old rules, and the new MSD rules would be good.

I don't like thier new class system though. I think we can keep it as 1.9s and 2.2s. There is a clear distinction between what each rim sized rig is capable of, and they shouldn't be competing against each other.

What did you like/didn't like:
I like Sundays for the events, helps make it so more people can show up, and doesn't have too much conflict with other events.
I didn't like running one course at a time from some events, if we can be running 2 or 3 courses at once, that would be preferable, sort of like how the comp crawler comps are done. It's not a big deal though, because while you wait for your turn, you can be BS'ing with everyone, and just hanging out, or watching the guy that's running. This also may be affected by the location, and how we want to layout courses, etc.

What do you want from the next season:
If there is enough interest, a Micro class would be cool. There are tons of model bodies that look great on a MiRC. I don't have one (yet) but think that would be fun to do after the main events.
I'd like to see how many scale points were awarded to each driver, along with the results from each course (time on timed run, score on gated course, etc) to see what you are up against. This is a little more work, but I think it will help someone understand if they want to do better, where they can improve. I can help get together a spreadsheet that would make it easy to tabulate the scores, and display them here.


In the end though, I want this to stay as the fun events they are, and don't want to get too bogged down in rules. Those that want to compete nationally know what the rules are there, and they can build their rigs to match if they want.

[cato]

Leave simple the way it is, just add more gated courses....I want to use the winch as much as possible...That's the fun for me!!

Thanks Todd

[neoakaj]

Is there anyway to add in 1.55?

[TURTLE]

Originally Posted by neoakaj

Is there anyway to add in 1.55?

Run it in 1.9.

[R2j]

Originally Posted by cato

Leave simple the way it is, just add more gated courses....I want to use the winch as much as possible...That's the fun for me!!

Thanks Todd

I do think Cato is right to keep it simple, but also might not be a bad idea to incorporate some of the Nats rules as well. Just to be aware of what they are doing and be prepared for those of us thinking about attending this year.

[Rogue]

I guess when I stated rules I ment more about scale deductions. I think for the most part the rules are good.

I think there needs to be a penality for being helped though gates, either being winched or pulled with a pull strap. Basically any help by someone not being scored on the course.

I think setting a limit for points accured on a course, having a point out limit, as to not have someone one course for 10-15 minutes.
Do we want to limit tires that are allowed like MSD?

Originally Posted by bmx_ican92

maybe a hardcore class and a weekend warrior class?

Not sure what your meaning here.
2.2 class is more like a hard core class and the 1.9 seems more like a weekend class. I don't want to change the rig classifacations. There will be a 1.9 and 2.2 class. At some of the events I have heard interest in a "unlimited" class where dig and 4ws could be used. I think this could be a fun class and if there would be the interest and enough guys to run it at each event then we could add that class.

Originally Posted by lwb Sami

Why don't you guys come south a little, I could help you organize at Palmer park. We also know a couple other places between Denver and the Springs

I don't think there is an issue about heading south, but this season no one really showed any interest in going down there. I know you guys are there, but at the same time there were 6 events held and not one of you springs guys made an effort to come up here.

Originally Posted by monkeyracer

Locations:
I like a lot of the places we went this year, but I would like to see some new places as well. I PM'd you about a place I'd like to use, and will call the county today to find out what is up with it, and if we are allowed to run there or not.
We've got drivers from all over the area, so it's hard finding a "Central" place. If we get enough notice to something further away, then it should be fine. So, palmer, buffalo creek, etc would be good choices. As long as it seems fair (one month it's on the west side of town, the next it's on the east side, etc.)

Rule Changes:
I think there should be a change to the point system.
I think we should adopt some of the new MSD rules, like +2 for winching, per winch-anchor (move the winch point = another +2) and +5 or +7 (rather than +10) for each "rescue" (buddy winch.)
Helps make you think about how to drive the course and whether the +2 is worth saving from hitting a gate or is it just worth taking 2 reverses to line up better.
I like their 1/4 rollback rule, especially for rigs without drag brake or with a weak drag brake. (XL-5 ESC or Titan Motors?) Also helps if you are releasing from a winch point and the rig rolls back a little.

We also need to get a little deeper into distinguishing how many points tube/metal/custom work is worth. The point being that if someone takes the time to make a nice cage, or do something custom, they should be rewarded more than someone just throwing a scale sleeping bag in the bed.

I like our rules now, for the most part, so a mixture of what is best between the old rules, and the new MSD rules would be good.

I don't like thier new class system though. I think we can keep it as 1.9s and 2.2s. There is a clear distinction between what each rim sized rig is capable of, and they shouldn't be competing against each other.

What did you like/didn't like:
I like Sundays for the events, helps make it so more people can show up, and doesn't have too much conflict with other events.
I didn't like running one course at a time from some events, if we can be running 2 or 3 courses at once, that would be preferable, sort of like how the comp crawler comps are done. It's not a big deal though, because while you wait for your turn, you can be BS'ing with everyone, and just hanging out, or watching the guy that's running. This also may be affected by the location, and how we want to layout courses, etc.

What do you want from the next season:
If there is enough interest, a Micro class would be cool. There are tons of model bodies that look great on a MiRC. I don't have one (yet) but think that would be fun to do after the main events.
I'd like to see how many scale points were awarded to each driver, along with the results from each course (time on timed run, score on gated course, etc) to see what you are up against. This is a little more work, but I think it will help someone understand if they want to do better, where they can improve. I can help get together a spreadsheet that would make it easy to tabulate the scores, and display them here.


In the end though, I want this to stay as the fun events they are, and don't want to get too bogged down in rules. Those that want to compete nationally know what the rules are there, and they can build their rigs to match if they want.

Yea we've had some good pm's and ideas.

I'm not sure about the penalty for winching though. I know others are opposed to it also. I think that there should be less scale deduction or no deduction for it, but I don't think that in the 1:1 world they penalize it's use. I know that many like the winching aspect of the scale classes, (Cato, me, I'm sure others as well) and to penalize for it would take away the reason to use it in the first place. I would rather be able to not have to use it and drive the whole corse, but think it is a very cool part of the scaler class. In comparison, to me it would be like penalizing the use of dig in the comp side of things. I see it as part of a rig, a intrial piece that makes it capable. No more or less important then picking the right tires, servo, or speed control. Courses continue to get more difficult, and with the new kits that have been coming out, many of these are as capable as some of the older comp crawlers before dig came out.

I would also like to give additional scale points for tube work and a point system to make it were it would be worth people to add it to there rigs.

There are some good things in the new MSD rules, and some things that I don't like. I want to see what everyone thinks and try to come up with rules that are fair and pretty straight forward, but don't limit peoples creativity and most of all the fun of the scale class.

Originally Posted by cato

Leave simple the way it is, just add more gated courses....I want to use the winch as much as possible...That's the fun for me!!

Thanks Todd

I do not want to complicate it at all. Just really try to define some of the scale deductions.
I'm with you on the winching part of things!

Originally Posted by neoakaj

Is there anyway to add in 1.55?

For now Turtle is correct, they would have to be run in the 1.9 class.
With there only being 4 tires out and two of them being as tall or taller then the 1.9 tires out, I don't see a reason to add a class just for 1.55.

[R2j]

Do we want to limit tires that are allowed like MSD?

I think only if they don't look scale. Rovers, Claws, Panthers and etc. just don't look the part....sorry guys for those of you that are running them, but in my opinion it's just not a scale looking tire. The Grabbers I would say are on the border, they classify them as a comp tire but still look very scale, not much different than narrowed Mashers.

[timmy85]

Originally Posted by R2j

I think only if they don't look scale. Rovers, Claws, Panthers and etc. just don't look the part....sorry guys for those of you that are running them, but in my opinion it's just not a scale looking tire. The Grabbers I would say are on the border, they classify them as a comp tire but still look very scale, not much different than narrowed Mashers.

X2

[monkeyracer]

Originally Posted by R2j

I think only if they don't look scale. Rovers, Claws, Panthers and etc. just don't look the part....sorry guys for those of you that are running them, but in my opinion it's just not a scale looking tire. The Grabbers I would say are on the border, they classify them as a comp tire but still look very scale, not much different than narrowed Mashers.

I agree, sort of. I run rovers, and used to run claws, since that's what was left over from the comp rig. Almost all "Scale tires" are twice as much as what someone can get a set of rovers or claws for. That in itself isn't a reason to not exclude comp tires though.

In the interest of trying for a scale appearance, I'd say that rule makes sense. The point is that you want to have scale characteristics in how it performs, and having a comp tire detracts from that... I guess if we do that, I'll just have to save my pennies and get a scale tire.

The point is, we've always been laid back about what we let run the courses, so I doubt we're turning anyone away just because they've got Hammers, Claws or Rovers.

What about their rule about modifying two different tires into one? What's the thoughts on that?

[RPMJ]

I agree with the scale tires rule. I also think metal bumpers, metal tube cages, and metal rock sliders should be worth a lot more points then plastic.... I think there should be a small winch penalty every time you use your winch but every time you help someone with your winch you should be rewarded. I think we ought to have buddy courses like we used too. and most importantly MORE ROCK RACING

[TwistedXT]

courses should be drivable - or at least offer drivable bypasses with a point loss for those not running winches - yet.

of course - the more runs you can get in the better.

I'm all for new locations.

run 2.2, 1.9 and 1.55

Some get togethers with trail rides would be fun!

i disagree with a point out - but i do agree to setting a time limit - and i cant believe im going to type this but - maybe shorter courses to keep the time limit down.

i also agree with the scale tire rules - comp tires should not be allowed.. and size comparisons should be considered when ruling out tires... on a 1/10th basis.. it must be scale.

keep up the awesome work carrying the torch guys! if you need anything.. ask.

[TURTLE]

Originally Posted by RPMJ

I agree with the scale tires rule. I also think metal bumpers, metal tube cages, and metal rock sliders should be worth a lot more points then plastic.... I think there should be a small winch penalty every time you use your winch but every time you help someone with your winch you should be rewarded. I think we ought to have buddy courses like we used too. and most importantly MORE ROCK RACING

X2
Rock racing would be a blast.

[R2j]

Originally Posted by RPMJ

I agree with the scale tires rule. I also think metal bumpers, metal tube cages, and metal rock sliders should be worth a lot more points then plastic.... I think there should be a small winch penalty every time you use your winch but every time you help someone with your winch you should be rewarded. I think we ought to have buddy courses like we used too. and most importantly MORE ROCK RACING

X2 on the metal add-ons!

I like the winching idea

courses should be drivable - or at least offer drivable bypasses with a point loss for those not running winches - yet.

of course - the more runs you can get in the better.

X2

[neoakaj]

I think that there should only be the 2.2 and 1.9 like what some others were talking about, and using 1.55 in the 1.9 size.

[monkeyracer]

If they don't penalize winching in 1:1s, then we shouldn't here. Since we've been allowing buddy-winching, I don't think we'll see driveable bypasses anytime soon.

I'd love to see a TTC style event too. Maybe have it outside of the series points, more of an exhibition and having fun.

I also would like to see a (few) "follow-the-leader" style trail run, but that also can be outside of the normal series points.

[Almighty Malach]

What about +1 or +2 points per winching? This would allow you to use your winch to better position yourself, but you would still be penalized similar to a reverse.
Also, maybe only one gate progression per winch point, forcing you to drive through gates instead of just winching through a few gates. (personal experience from the first comp at daniels park where Bender and I drug my truck through the last few gates...)

[Rogue]

Originally Posted by monkeyracer

What about their rule about modifying two different tires into one? What's the thoughts on that?

I really don't have an issue with that.
My biggest issue and it really has not been an issue for the most part is running "true comp" tires. I really don't like seeing Rovers, Claws, and Panther tires on scale rigs. I know that times are tough, but I think instead of turning people away from competing, maybe access a point penalty. Nothing to drastic, but maybe adding 3-5 points for running them.

Originally Posted by RPMJ

I agree with the scale tires rule. I also think metal bumpers, metal tube cages, and metal rock sliders should be worth a lot more points then plastic.... I think there should be a small winch penalty every time you use your winch but every time you help someone with your winch you should be rewarded. I think we ought to have buddy courses like we used too. and most importantly MORE ROCK RACING

Metal work will be rewarded more then plastic parts are. Metal is more of a hinderance then its plastic part. I think that should be rewarded in more of a deduction.

If more people want to penalize the use of the winch then that is fine. If we are going to penalize it I also don't feel we should not reward for having it. Or at least make it worth less points. I also feel if were going to penalize winching then the one free reverse should also go away. I never like the rule from the beginning. Biggest reason, and I know that it has been something that I have done and seen others that have judged is miss the free one and then loose track of the free one, letting too many free ones go. If it were if you back up at all any time for any reason, your going to get a reverse penalty.

The hardest part of the Buddy system is to fairly judge the two on course.
What if one breaks, how do we keep score for the one that didn't finish. What about if one has no winch, how is that going to be fair to the to the guys that does and were another pair where both have winches. Picking partners could be easily done by drawing numbers at the beginning of the event and who you draw is who you run with. Just need to come up with some good guidelines as to how best run/score this event. I agree with you though, it was one of my favorite events.

It's also hard to reward someone for helping out, and being fair to everyone else. One could just sit there all day with the rig ready and help out lets say ten rigs, if we were to give them a -5 for each help that's a -50 how is that fair to the rest of the field. I feel if someone wants to help great, if not then no big deal, but someone is allways ready to lend a helping hand to those that need it.

Originally Posted by TwistedXT

courses should be drivable - or at least offer drivable bypasses with a point loss for those not running winches - yet.

of course - the more runs you can get in the better.

I'm all for new locations.

run 2.2, 1.9 and 1.55

Some get togethers with trail rides would be fun!

i disagree with a point out - but i do agree to setting a time limit - and i cant believe im going to type this but - maybe shorter courses to keep the time limit down.

i also agree with the scale tire rules - comp tires should not be allowed.. and size comparisons should be considered when ruling out tires... on a 1/10th basis.. it must be scale.

keep up the awesome work carrying the torch guys! if you need anything.. ask.

We talked at the beginning of the season about bypasses, it's way to hard to judge what is and isn't do able at times. I sure you remember setting stuff up and thinking it would be easy to get though, but to find out no one can make it. I really do not want to get into the habbit of making bypass lines for rig that can't make it. If we set something up like that and then the bypass is not doable then we have to rebuild course. I think what we have been doing has been working well. If someone can't make it, someone is always willing to help.

New locations are in the works as we speak!

For now I don't see enough people with 1.55's to make a class of there own. If there were enough to run a seperate class sure, but for now they would run with the 1.9.

The reason I feel a point out is necessary is not to have a reason to stop the pain of someone's run, or to speed things up, but to have a point total to subtract progress from to determine finishing orders. Last comp I think there were 3-4 guys that did not finish the gated course, I had a way to rank them in a finishing position, but it would make scoring on my end easier. We do always have a time limit, but then there is still what do you subtract progress points from with no point total to start from.

Shorter course may have to be a reality with some of the numbers of people turning out for the last few events. I think if we did shorter course and maybe ran a few more, we would have less down time for everyone waiting to run. I would need people to step up and help out in judging and course design.

Originally Posted by R2j

I think only if they don't look scale. Rovers, Claws, Panthers and etc. just don't look the part....sorry guys for those of you that are running them, but in my opinion it's just not a scale looking tire. The Grabbers I would say are on the border, they classify them as a comp tire but still look very scale, not much different than narrowed Mashers.

Exactly what I was thinking.

Originally Posted by R2j

X2 on the metal add-ons!


I like the winching idea


X2

it will be done, but I do want to know what point values people think these should be worth. I like the way MSD has broken these down, and the values they accessed, but I'm not sure what I feel about the plastic counter parts that are out there. What are your guys feelings about what a plastic truggy should be worth? Plastic bumpers, sliders?
What about metal roll cages, like the one in CRF450 jeep. I really had no way of giving him much for scale points on that. The time and effort that was put into that should be worth much more then a trinket bought at a doll house store.