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Old 12-20-2008, 12:25 PM   #1
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Arrow MSD Scale Nationals 2009 course thread.

Here is Tim's post. " War Pig " , he is incharge of the course design and setup this year.

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Originally Posted by War Pig View Post
Sooo, why don't you guys tell me what you want to see this year. Who likes water? How about mud? Rocks? Sand?

The main thing that I want to do this year is make sure that the courses physically hold up to 40 trucks over the course of a day. I don't want the first guys to have an advantage over the last ones.
We will also have separate courses for 2.2 and 1.9. This will help keep the courses from getting so torn up, and will allow the 2.2 courses to be more difficult.
I plan to have 2 or 3 different lines per gate....maybe one with water, another line that will require a winch, etc. I want people to have to think and choose the best line for their own rig.
The courses will be larger than last year, but not necessarily longer. I'd like to keep them to 6-8 gates with 8 minute time limits.
I like to throw in at least one gate that you HAVE to winch through, or risk a large penalty, because I believe that all scale trucks should have a winch.....any thoughts on that?
I like to have a muddy climb as well. Ben, do you have any clay dirt around Helena or should I bring some from Oregon ?

I want this comp to be something that you tell all your friends about back home. I want you to tell them that it was the best scale comp EVER, and that the courses were the best scale courses that you've EVER seen.

Any input is greatly appreciated. Thanks,Tim.
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Old 12-20-2008, 05:17 PM   #2
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You guys should make a massive tank trap or something like that. Throw it all into one course and make it break stuff. People will remember broken parts. Try to also make it look like it occured in nature, I know sometimes thats hard but when it can happen it just looks wicked. Maybe like a wooden/strung bridge like you see in movies when the stars are running from the bad guys and the bad guys cut the rope. Tunnels are another thing. At the North GA Scale event Destroyer hosted he had a mulch tunnel that everyone fell in love with. Maybe many tunnels would be very cool. Unfortunatly I am Far too young and live too far away to make it to such a great event. Those are just some Ideas Im thinking of for my scale event I want to have someday. Good luck to all attend and I hope my .02 helps a bit
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Old 12-20-2008, 06:27 PM   #3
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Alright, I'm not into purposely breaking peoples trucks.
Tunnels....now that is a possibility. No rusty steel culverts that mess with peoples AM radios though, they'll be built out of rock.
I'd also highly recommend that everyone waterproof their trucks, there will be water, but you all know that by now . I'll try to limit it to 3" deep, but I can't promise anything. I'm also thinking that at least one course will have alot of mud.
Come on guys, I know I'm not the only one sitting inside looking out at the snow, thinking about May. Give me some input......

BTW Ben, thanks for starting me my own little course thread, I guess I should have done it sooner......
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Old 12-20-2008, 07:19 PM   #4
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I was just kidding about breaking the rigs. Do make it tough though. For any inspiration, heres the thread from wayy back forever ago when this event was put on: http://z7.invisionfree.com/Rock_Craw...topic=36&st=45 As you can see the tunnels were constructed using Water dranage piping? Not sure if thats the correct name. I didnt think his curved but I guess I was wrong. Can't wait to see what you do bud
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Old 12-20-2008, 09:42 PM   #5
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Here's a link to the scale part of the Railroad comp that I put on last summer. You can get an idea of what kind of courses I like to design. The only issue is that the terrain in Oregon is vastly different from Montana.

http://www.orcrc.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3239&page=2
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Old 12-20-2008, 09:56 PM   #6
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So you design all the ORCRC courses? Man you do some awesome layouts. Ive probably seen everyone of the Dorkstar scale videos. The railroad comp looked like loads of fun
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Old 12-20-2008, 11:46 PM   #7
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I have not made it to Scale Porn yet so I don't know what was there the years before...trying my hardest this year,anyways...Be cool to see a line where you would have to winch down. I know you would have the reverse nazis throw a fit. Or have a part where the person in front of you gets points for winching you to the final gate, it would continue on and on. Another suggestion, having logs in the water setup like a ninja plum poles. If your drove a steady line you would make it, if not you're getting wet.Or just to do something totally different...hold the entire course at night. Just my .02??
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Old 12-21-2008, 11:11 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by War Pig View Post
Sooo, why don't you guys tell me what you want to see this year. Who likes water? How about mud? Rocks? Sand?
Lastyear the water sucked. It was fine in the am, but as is bound to happen in Montana in the springtime the creek is going to rise every afternoon. Having courses on, in, or around the creek is begging for them to be flooded.

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Originally Posted by War Pig View Post
The main thing that I want to do this year is make sure that the courses physically hold up to 40 trucks over the course of a day. I don't want the first guys to have an advantage over the last ones.
So that leaves out water, mud, and dirt. Those 3 things will change each time a rig drives on them. 99% of the time rock won't change.

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Originally Posted by War Pig View Post
I like to have a muddy climb as well. Ben, do you have any clay dirt around Helena or should I bring some from Oregon ?
I'd like to see how you build a muddy hill climb that stays the same from the first driver to the 40th one.;)

Quote:
Originally Posted by War Pig View Post
I want this comp to be something that you tell all your friends about back home. I want you to tell them that it was the best scale comp EVER, and that the courses were the best scale courses that you've EVER seen.
Sounds like fun.
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Old 12-21-2008, 01:21 PM   #9
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Last year the water sucked. It was fine in the am, but as is bound to happen in Montana in the springtime the creek is going to rise every afternoon. Having courses on, in, or around the creek is begging for them to be flooded.

Sounds like fun.
Agreed Jason, Tim and I are planning a whole new water strategy this year. You have to learn from mistakes each year. But I feel 100% confident that this year will make most people very happy. Can't please everyone.
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Old 12-21-2008, 04:10 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jason View Post
Lastyear the water sucked. It was fine in the am, but as is bound to happen in Montana in the springtime the creek is going to rise every afternoon. Having courses on, in, or around the creek is begging for them to be flooded.
Very true, but what are the chances of having 6 feet of fresh snow at the comp site in April again this year? I'm hoping that was just a freak thing..... I do have some ideas to counteract raising and lowering river levels.


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So that leaves out water, mud, and dirt. Those 3 things will change each time a rig drives on them. 99% of the time rock won't change.
What if i were to put 2 or 3 inches of dirt and mud over a bed of rock? Or have a small mud pit at the base of a gnarly rocky climb? That way you get all the dirt/mud you can handle but the rock under it won't change over the course of the day?

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I'd like to see how you build a muddy hill climb that stays the same from the first driver to the 40th one.
It would be impossible to do that, but I think I can accomplish something that will stay fairly consistent for 40 trucks. I guess we'll see come May.
Can't be any worse than last year, right?
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Old 12-22-2008, 01:30 PM   #11
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id prefer no mud or a route around the mud. taking home muddy rigs in rentals or borrowed vehicles is no good. plus clean up stinks

and forcing a winch is a bad idea.
not everyone wanting to attend, will have the know-how/ time/ money for a winch. and theres plenty of trial (1:1)trucks without them.

i will not be running one in either class

Last edited by STANG KILLA SS; 12-22-2008 at 01:32 PM.
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Old 12-22-2008, 08:06 PM   #12
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Just because I don't feel like posting a novel that will be hard to read in the end, I like things that are scale to the size of the truck, but provide enough or a challenge to make it fun...


Mud = ok

Sand = ok

Axel deep water = ok

allowing a winch = ok

rocks = ok

introducing small amounts of any combination to making the line harder = ok

water that goes over the roof of my truck = no thanks

requiring a winch = meh

needing to have someone else to rely on to get through the course = no thanks



getting to come to Montana and have a good time, and use my own free will and judgement to make my own choices on what I run if I don't get my way, and still end up having a blast = WHERE DO I SIGN UP...




in other words, build it, i'll be there... I may pansy out and not run something, but I still plan on enjoying myself..

After all, If I drive 2000 miles just to get upset if i don't win, i'm coming for the wrong reason...
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Old 12-24-2008, 07:39 AM   #13
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Guys i know you have your work cut out for you, But it seems not everyone likes the water mud idea. I personally love it, So here is what i may propose. Build just a rock course for those who prefer and a trail course for everyone else. I will run both which most probably would. But I love the trail Idea. Also all the little scale touches you could make to the track would be awesome. I know it takes time and money but you said ideas so i'm pitching some out there. I like the old rope bridge idea. And maybe some old gates that say private keep out that are busted open. A mudhole or rock with a parts tree beside it. You know where people decorate a tree with all the parts they brake on a certain obstacle. it would also be cool to have a mudhole where people could hook their rigs togather and have tug O war while they were waiting or just inbetween events.
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Old 12-24-2008, 08:06 AM   #14
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MY .02 if it counts.

Build the coarses with optional lines.Let the driver with the most capable rig,best driving skills and biggest balls along with a little of "HEY, WATCH THIS" chose there poison.

Waterbypass/-----bonus points if you go thru the water

winch obstacles----alternate lines /winch not needed--bonus for using your winch

Mud--bring it, its on every trail in the real world.

A serious trail rig would be equipped with winches and be ready for deep water crossings,why would our scalers be any different ? Shouldnt you use all the resources you have to your advantage ?

We have a point system that rewards you for having a winch---reward the builder for making that winch function and knowing how to use it.

I know everybody has different tastes/styles and ideas on what scale is, so why not bring those options/alternates into the compitition with out stiffiling the rest of the competitors.

Bypasses and alternates should make a line for everybodys driving styles/desires.

Lets here some more ideas on what type of obsticles/terrian people would like.

The muddy hill climb was a blast at the RR comp Tim, and you had a very ingenious way of keeping it consistant.
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Old 12-24-2008, 09:38 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dubs Chops View Post
Guys i know you have your work cut out for you,
Yes we do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dub Chops View Post
But it seems not everyone likes the water mud idea. I personally love it, So here is what i may propose. Build just a rock course for those who prefer and a trail course for everyone else. I will run both which most probably would.
We can't have different courses for different people, everyone must run the same courses otherwise we can't score people accurately and have a top five.

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Originally Posted by Dub Chops View Post
Also all the little scale touches you could make to the track would be awesome. I know it takes time and money but you said ideas so i'm pitching some out there. I like the old rope bridge idea.
There will be at least 4 bridges of some sort. Lots of scale touches in store too, I really want to have it photo friendly.

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And maybe some old gates that say private keep out that are busted open.
Careful now, how would that look in a national magazine? A bunch of real looking trucks trespassing on private forest land? Interesting idea, but no.

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A mudhole or rock with a parts tree beside it. You know where people decorate a tree with all the parts they brake on a certain obstacle.
We'll let you start that parts tree .

Thanks for the input, this is just what I need.

More! More! More!
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Old 12-24-2008, 09:42 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hotwheels000 View Post
MY .02 if it counts.

Build the coarses with optional lines.Let the driver with the most capable rig,best driving skills and biggest balls along with a little of "HEY, WATCH THIS" chose there poison.

Waterbypass/-----bonus points if you go thru the water

winch obstacles----alternate lines /winch not needed--bonus for using your winch

Mud--bring it, its on every trail in the real world.

A serious trail rig would be equipped with winches and be ready for deep water crossings,why would our scalers be any different ? Shouldnt you use all the resources you have to your advantage ?

We have a point system that rewards you for having a winch---reward the builder for making that winch function and knowing how to use it.

I know everybody has different tastes/styles and ideas on what scale is, so why not bring those options/alternates into the compitition with out stiffiling the rest of the competitors.

Bypasses and alternates should make a line for everybodys driving styles/desires.

Lets here some more ideas on what type of obsticles/terrian people would like.

The muddy hill climb was a blast at the RR comp Tim, and you had a very ingenious way of keeping it consistant.
This is EXACTLY how I would run the comp if I could, but I want to please as many people as possible.

Thoughts?
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Old 12-24-2008, 04:25 PM   #17
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well tim you know me
ill try anything water,mudd,rocks,sand, and snow. its all the same to me. as for course design the terrain will tell you what to do. you wont be able to please everyone, and since we know from your rr comp you can design some kickazz courses.

as for having several different ways of getting around might get alittle tricky with scoring. with making sure all the judges are on the same page on what and how to score the different lanes they can take.

i say like a real trail if theres a place on the trail where there is a need to winch, well then either you get the winch out or get the tow rope out.

just my pennies worth
later
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Old 12-24-2008, 05:23 PM   #18
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i will drive whatever, i love rc rock crawlin. bring it on man.
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Old 12-29-2008, 10:14 PM   #19
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The mud/water sounds great but my 2.2 scaler will be stuffed to the edges of the tube work with electronics.

Tamiya MFC-02, winch, ESC, RX, 3 speakers, an iPod...

But it'll also have plenty of performance to go along will all the gadgetry.

So while I consider my 2.2 a scale version of a serious trail rig...There's no way I want all that shit going under water.

Axle deep isn't an issue.

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Old 12-29-2008, 10:43 PM   #20
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When I saw the video of the rigs crossing the "seas" and falling to their death, I was like: "Ummm I'll take a reposition...over there." Axle deep should be the norm.
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