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Old 11-14-2005, 11:07 AM   #1
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Default Competition Legality Issues

Back in the day when we all would only have 5 or 6 people showing up to events we never ran into any problems, however now with the huge growth our hobby has encountered we are now finding it harder and harder to find places that will allow us to get together and do what we love to do.

Here in Colorado we have lost 2 of our best crawling spots. One of them we cannot go back to at all, the other we can use, just not for anything that has been "organised" or for any "competition" purpose.

The spot we were going to have our competition at yesterday was a spot we go to all the time and have held many competitions at, however this time we had so many vehicles parked out in the parking area it drew attention to us and the ranger came looking for us. He basically told us that it was illegal to have any for of "competition" on the open space, he told us that the chalk we use to mark the courses is considered graffiti, and he told us that we could not get a group of more than 25 people together without a permit. So yesterday he shut down our comp, and made us clean up the chalk, but told us since we only had 23 people that we could stay and crawl, but we couldn;t use cones, chalk, or even have the clipboard or timer out. I argued with him about all the people that use this area for rockclimbing and put chalk all over the rocks as well, and it was pointless.

Facing things like this I think it will become harder and harder to hold these big comps that we are now seeing. The main reason being because I know most places at least require a permit for any gathering of 25 or more people on public land.

Yes we still have other spots here in Colorado to crawl, but is it even woth setting up comps in places like Palmer Park, without first looking into the legal issues of doing so? I just don't want to end up again like we did yesterday and have people drive from all over the state to come to an event just to be shut down before we even run the first course.

This problem isn't just for the people of Colorado, I am sure you will all start to see this nationwide as your competitions grow larger and larger. Once you get a group big enough it attracts peoples attention.

Two others I can think of off the top of my head are the UTRCRC comp in Moab, I know in Moab the same thing applies, if you have a group of people together over a certian number you need a permit. I really doubt you guys got one, but how bad would it have sucked to have people from all over the country in attendance and then some asshole ranger decides to shut you down. Same thing goes with the Green River comp, how would you all have liked to be sent home without being able to crawl?


This thread is not going to turn into a bash fest on Rangers, as they are only doing the job they are paid to do. I would like for people to help come up with ideas on how we can keep holding the comps we love to have. Do not reply to this thread with junk, it will be erased.
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Old 11-14-2005, 11:14 AM   #2
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Palmer Park is a good place. Maybe even perfect. Palmer Park is just that: A Park.
It has baseball fields and football fields, volleyball nets and Star Wars light saber arenas. You can bring as many people to play baseball as you want on the fields and same goes for bringing in crawling to the rocks. Only thing I need to check on is the legality of what type of motorized vehicle is allowed on those rocks. I can check into it more this week. If we need a permit, it will be easily obtained. I'll let you know soon.

Last edited by jason; 11-14-2005 at 11:17 AM.
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Old 11-14-2005, 11:20 AM   #3
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One thing I was wondering about is the whole "competition" thing. Yesterday we had started our "competition", but there were no prizes to be won. So is it still considered a "competition"?

How hard is it to get permits, how far in advance do we need to ask? If we have a permit, how many are allowed to attend?

What about using small rocks to mark where a marker sits instead of circling it in chalk? It would be a PITA, but it may come to that. Although they'll probably tell us we can't move any rocks.
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Old 11-14-2005, 11:20 AM   #4
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Yea I understand Palmer park is a park where people can gather. However that is what the boulder open space is, and that is also what red rocks is as well. I am sure that even though it is a public park I'll bet depending on group size we may have to get a permit.

Then are we allowed to be on the rocks? Remember Red Rocks, they told us people weren't even allowed to walk on the rocks.

Do they care if we hold a competition?

Do they care if we put some chalk on the rocks?

All of these are issues that need to be delt with.
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Old 11-14-2005, 11:30 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jason
Yea I understand Palmer park is a park where people can gather. However that is what the boulder open space is, and that is also what red rocks is as well. I am sure that even though it is a public park I'll bet depending on group size we may have to get a permit.

Then are we allowed to be on the rocks? Remember Red Rocks, they told us people weren't even allowed to walk on the rocks.

Do they care if we hold a competition?

Do they care if we put some chalk on the rocks?

All of these are issues that need to be delt with.
Right. I just left a message for this guy:
Address:
1401 Recreation Way
Colorado Springs, CO 80905-1075
Phone: (719) 385-6540
Fax: (719) 385-6599
Contact: Kurt Schroeder
Email: KSchroeder@SpringsGov.com
Hours: 8 a.m. to 5 p.m., Monday - Friday

He is the park manager for all parks in colorado springs.
I will talk specifics with him when he returns the call.
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Old 11-14-2005, 11:45 AM   #6
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Is anyones property centrally located? WOuld it be out of the question to get 15-20 folks to come together with an agreed upon amount of cash and "create" a rc crawling park on someones property? You could fine tune it to your liking, add some hero sections, some easier sections for newbies, etc.. Turn it into a club thing and pay for the upkeep with membership dues etc.. and add on to it at any time. This is something that would definitley take time, effort and money however it would be worth it in the long run. As time goes on, maybe add a pavillion over some sections so you can run in inclement weather. Not from the Area, just some thoughts.
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Old 11-14-2005, 11:50 AM   #7
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I think that private land could be a option. One of of my friends lives on a 100+ acere ranch. We ride dirtbikes and wheel our full size rigs there. We have acsess to rock that could be used to build a course. He has yet to build a R/C crawler but, after taking him to the comp this weekend is very intersted. The only negative is that it in Kiowa. This could be one solution to the problem.
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Old 11-14-2005, 11:54 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JUSTAHOBBY
Not from the Area, just some thoughts.
This thread is not just for those of us here in Colorado, I just posted it using our examples. I believe we are the first to run into these kinds of problems, and I would like everyones input on how to handle these issues. I am positive that as groups around the country grow larger and larger more people will start to run into these problems. It would be nice for us to get this figured out so we don't run into this in the future.
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Old 11-14-2005, 11:58 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jason
This thread is not just for those of us here in Colorado, I just posted it using our examples. I believe we are the first to run into these kinds of problems, and I would like everyones input on how to handle these issues. I am positive that as groups around the country grow larger and larger more people will start to run into these problems. It would be nice for us to get this figured out so we don't run into this in the future.
Right. I will post what I find for the local parks here in Colorado. Should get some good info from this guy.
PS. I'm still going to the moon and building a new Neverland Ranch.
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Old 11-14-2005, 12:06 PM   #10
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We were also told we would need to obtain a permit if our group got any larger the last time we were at Buford Dam. :neutral:

Although...we were also too close to the dam itself...the ranger said we were setting off the motion sensors. JIA driving his nitro boat inside the "no occupancy" zone didn't help any either.


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Old 11-14-2005, 12:10 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Destroyer
We were also told we would need to obtain a permit if our group got any larger the last time we were at Buford Dam. :neutral:

Although...we were also too close to the dam itself...the ranger said we were setting off the motion sensors. JIA driving his nitro boat inside the "no occupancy" zone didn't help any either.


-Destroyer
Nice!

It does seem that almost every rule is in place to protect the safety of park guests. Mostly to insure that the park/city is not sued if something happens. Next, they try and maintain the natural beauty of the surrounding, etc. If you can abide by these rules, you can usually have any type of event. This is the info I am trying to obtain from the Park Manager of Colorado Springs, which will likely apply to the entire state and perhaps, other states as well.
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Old 11-14-2005, 12:31 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BENDER
One thing I was wondering about is the whole "competition" thing. Yesterday we had started our "competition", but there were no prizes to be won. So is it still considered a "competition"?
I think most public lands descriptions prohibit "organized gatherings" without permit.....not just comps. A group of friends or club members showing up at a location for a common activity is usually not a problem. But when numbers start to soar, the rangers will start to take notice......my experience from 1:1 wheeling activities.

Our last Phoenix comp met with a little of what you describe. We had been holding comps in the city mountain park for about a year in several locations. One ranger knew us there and knew what we were doing. He was cool with it.

However, last month his boss shut us down, citing the need to stay on trails. After a little discussion between him, Kevin and myself he told us a place we could use (just a few feet off a trail) that was more out of the public eye. He didn't want the public seeing us crawling/walking on rocks and think the everyone could wander all over the terrain in the park.

As Jason mentioned, as we get more and more people doing this, this issue will rise. Hopefully, with a little discussion with the rangers everyone can come to some agreement to allow us access to areas for comps.

Outside the southwestern states there are lots of private 1:1 parks popping up simply because of the lack of accessible land for wheeling. Fortunately, scale crawling needs much smaller spaces, but we may find the need to find private areas at some point or deal with the permit/insurance/etc. issues.

Jay
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Old 11-14-2005, 12:33 PM   #13
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I think permits are going to become a must for every event but we might also need to look at altering the gates. They are perfectly harmless as they are right now but as we found out if a person needs a reason.........
I am thinking along the lines of just using tennis balls so that nothing is left behind when we leave other than tire tracks.
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Old 11-14-2005, 12:35 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DirkDigler
Nice!

It does seem that almost every rule is in place to protect the safety of park guests. Mostly to insure that the park/city is not sued if something happens. Next, they try and maintain the natural beauty of the surrounding, etc. If you can abide by these rules, you can usually have any type of event. This is the info I am trying to obtain from the Park Manager of Colorado Springs, which will likely apply to the entire state and perhaps, other states as well.
Yep....they have to limit their liability and they have to be concerned about lawsuits from the eco-nuts. Many times it's easier for them to shut down multi-use access than risk those liabilities. Good luck getting some info......

Jay
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Old 11-14-2005, 12:37 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slugzracing
I think permits are going to become a must for every event but we might also need to look at altering the gates. They are perfectly harmless as they are right now but as we found out if a person needs a reason.........
I am thinking along the lines of just using tennis balls so that nothing is left behind when we leave other than tire tracks.
Duct tape markers?....could be removed when the comp is over.

Funny though....doesn't chalk simply wash away?
Jay
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Old 11-14-2005, 12:42 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roktoy
Duct tape markers?....could be removed when the comp is over.

Funny though....doesn't chalk simply wash away?
Jay
It was funny, the chalk does just go away after the first rain, or wind. But this area we go to is big for people climbing on the rocks, they all use the little chalk bags and cover their hands in chalk, the same stuff we use. You can look at the rocks and tell where people had been climbing all over.

He said that upset him too, but that he couldn;t do anything about it. I don't see why not, he made us stop using chalk, why not make them do the same?
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Old 11-14-2005, 12:44 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roktoy
Duct tape markers?....could be removed when the comp is over.

Funny though....doesn't chalk simply wash away?
Jay
some chalk does and some doesn't. There is a specific chalk that the climbers use that does not hurt the rocks.
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Old 11-14-2005, 12:46 PM   #18
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The use of chalk (calcium carbonate) in conjunction with technical climbing and bouldering is prohibited. A chalk substitute that does not discolor the rock may be used.
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Old 11-14-2005, 12:55 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DirkDigler
The use of chalk (calcium carbonate) in conjunction with technical climbing and bouldering is prohibited. A chalk substitute that does not discolor the rock may be used.
Where do you see that? They need that in Boulder
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Old 11-14-2005, 01:00 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jason
Where do you see that? They need that in Boulder
That is rule number two for climbers in Colorado Springs Parks.

For Bouldering and climbing

1. Refrain from placing additional permanent protection (pitons, expansion bolts, etc.) in the rock unless absolutely necessary for safety reasons.
2. The use of chalk (calcium carbonate) in conjunction with technical climbing and bouldering is prohibited. A chalk substitute that does not discolor the rock may be used.
3. Climbing near raptor nesting sties is prohibited. Seasonal clusters of routs near nesting sties will be posted at the trailhead leading to the climb.
4. Permanent slings may be left only at the belay points where necessary for safety reasons. Any webbing left on the rock surface must match the color of the rock.
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