Competition Rules

[Fishmaxx]

Originally Posted by kaetwo

As for handicap points....If it really comes down to that then we need to split the classes.

I don't think we have enough for seprate classes yet. Maybe in a year or so

I am thinking more along the lines of what to do when some shows up at acomp with a stock TXT, Maxx , any 2.2 rig.

Do we tell them to "Go home", "Get ready to have your butt kicked" or "Hey we are only running 1 class today, but we will spot you 2 points a section or gate"

[DUDE]

Originally Posted by Fishmaxx

I don't think we have enough for seprate classes yet. Maybe in a year or so

I am thinking more along the lines of what to do when some shows up at acomp with a stock TXT, Maxx , any 2.2 rig.

Do we tell them to "Go home", "Get ready to have your butt kicked" or "Hey we are only running 1 class today, but we will spot you 2 points a section or gate"

I agree and have thought of that just thing. What do you do with a stocker??

Easy, measure for distance if they can't make it. Then they can get experience and compete. Just use that for a beginner type thing if two or more show up, thats all it takes for a winner. The stockers run with the rest of the pack but are just scored different, quik and fun for them.

They also will feel the glory of a win and want to compete somemore. As soon as the said person modify's from stock, including tire's, the such said person would be scored on the piont system.

Beleave me, one win and your are bit for life.

[Fishmaxx]

I think we are getting close

I have a couple more points

Shouldn't "Repositions" be 2pts if reverses are 1pt

I would think touching your vehicle should be the last thing you do!

"Repairs" I am torn if it should be penelized or not. It was so cool to watch Griz finish driving a section with his rear steering link dragging on the ground behind him, and his rear tires point in every direction.

That kind of effort should be worth something

Maybe 1 point per section bonus If no repairs are made in that section

[Highmark]

Fish you should have seen Jason trying to make a gate at Green river in reverse with 2wd

One thing that's nagging at me

I am thinking more along the lines of what to do when some shows up at acomp with a stock TXT, Maxx , any 2.2 rig.

Do we tell them to "Go home", "Get ready to have your butt kicked" or "Hey we are only running 1 class today, but we will spot you 2 points a section or gate"

Has anyone who actualy runs a modded TLT or other 2.2 size truck in comps (not "going to" is) actualy said anything about seperating the classes? I'm not understanding the desire to profile trucks because of there tire size when from the majority of videos and my own personal exprences I have yet to see a smaller truck at a such dissadvantage that would warrent doing so.

[RSI]

i agree ^..... and 13" wheel base? isnt that just above your dude? kinda sound perfect for you

13" is almost the stock txt wheel base and if your ruinnin 5 inch tires then you might as well be in with the other rigs

ryan

[DUDE]

Originally Posted by RSI

i agree ^..... and 13" wheel base? isnt that just above your dude? kinda sound perfect for you

13" is almost the stock txt wheel base and if your ruinnin 5 inch tires then you might as well be in with the other rigs

ryan

Not really, the TJ-10 tlt is for play and not a comp rig. A twin force is on the way, and it will fit the "box", if that is what is decided among the "commen" rules. Can we say tuber!!

[kaetwo]

Well with the Moab event all wrapped up we had a lot of time to fine tune some of the rules. We've added a few things like, battery change rules, repairs, bodys, max points and boundry penalties.

We'll post our new rule set soon.

[DUDE]

Originally Posted by kaetwo

Well with the Moab event all wrapped up we had a lot of time to fine tune some of the rules. We've added a few things like, battery change rules, repairs, bodys, max points and boundry penalties.

We'll post our new rule set soon.

Cool, I need the id of the "box" I am starting a new comp crawler.

[PinchFlat]

Now a question about changing vehicles. In all the other big RC events across the country there is a rule that you can't change vehicles during an event (or something like that - I'm sure someone will feel the need to correct me). Now this hasn't really come up yet in one of our comps but it may. But many or us have multiple vehicles.

Lets say one of your vehicles brakes and it can't continue in the rest of the event. One may want to use another crawler to finish the event. This could be a great advantage to that person. The substitute crawler could handle the type of course better than the original. Say the first one keeps rolling over and brakes. The sub-crawler comes in and is wide enough or low enough that it doesn't roll over as easyly as the first. This could be a HUGE advantage. Or the wheelbases are different giving the sub an advantage.

I say no, you shouldn't be able to do this. You shouldn't be able to change your vehicle durring an event. Now if you can fix it and continue with the next section that would be fine. Does anyone else see this as a future issue like I do?

-PF

[Grizzly4x4]

Pinchy, you read my mind.

I am almost finished with another draft of the rules. It's like writing a freakin novel. I will email it to Pinchy and Kaetwo for review and then post it when they give it the ok so we can discuss anything else here.

Couple things I want to bring up.
1) I agree that a reposition should be 2 pts like Fish said.

2) I would like to see courses broken into stages (sections) like Jason said. Like we had at Dirk's and have the starting order change for each stage. Except have 2 courses per event.

3) In Moab it was said that it was ok to straddle a gate without penalty but it was also decided that we couldnt use the rock next to the gate to carry the tire over the gate. This is contradictory. I say straddling should be a penalty.

4) No offense to anyone but I think watching someone analyze every turn of the tires is boring. Competition should be exciting. I would like to see a time limit on stages. Each stage would have 4-6 gates and the time limit would be such that you better hurry up, something like 5 minutes per stage. Gate penalties would be a given.

5) We need harder courses, a score of 3 points should not win an event. It should be more like 30 IMHO. Having obstacles that are almost impossible is not a bad thing.

6) I have suggested in my new draft that we have a max point system per gate, 10 points. If you try an obstacle and point out you have to bypass and get 10 points. If you accrue 1 point and bypass you get 10 points. But if you clear the gate driving you get a bonus of 1 point, and if you clear the gate without repositioning you get another 1 point bonus. This would reward the effort of driving rather than someone seeing that he might have trouble and bypassing the gate to get less points than someone who drove it. Plus, since fixing your truck will accrue a reposition penalty in the new rules, it will reward someone who finishes the section with parts hanging off.

Thoughts anyone?

[PinchFlat]

Originally Posted by Grizzly4x4

Pinchy, you read my mind.

I am almost finished with another draft of the rules. It's like writing a freakin novel. I will email it to Pinchy and Kaetwo for review and then post it when they give it the ok so we can discuss anything else here.

Couple things I want to bring up.
1) I agree that a reposition should be 2 pts like Fish said.

2) I would like to see courses broken into stages (sections) like Jason said. Like we had at Dirk's and have the starting order change for each stage. Except have 2 courses per event.

That's an idea. me and kaetwo were taking and we were thinking 3 courses of 6 gates max each.

Originally Posted by Grizzly4x4

3) In Moab it was said that it was ok to straddle a gate without penalty but it was also decided that we couldnt use the rock next to the gate to carry the tire over the gate. This is contradictory. I say straddling should be a penalty.

We talked about this too. We were thinking if you straddle through a gate you get 3 penalty points if you make a gate with only one tire its 5 points. Or... boundery marks at the gates. That way you straddle a gate you get 2 points because 2 tires went out of bounds and if you get 3 tires through only you get 1 boundery point.

Originally Posted by Grizzly4x4

4) No offense to anyone but I think watching someone analyze every turn of the tires is boring. Competition should be exciting. I would like to see a time limit on stages. Each stage would have 4-6 gates and the time limit would be such that you better hurry up, something like 5 minutes per stage. Gate penalties would be a given.

And we talked about this also. We were thinking of cutting our per gate time from 3 min. to 2 min. And a 10 min maximum for the course of 6 gates.

Originally Posted by Grizzly4x4

5) We need harder courses, a score of 3 points should not win an event. It should be more like 30 IMHO. Having obstacles that are almost impossible is not a bad thing.

Yes... In Moab we let others build the 2nd course. This turned out to be a bad idea. The course ended up way to easy and it was like we never ran it (point wise). The reason for running 2 or more courses was to equil out the competition the best we can. In the past there have been competitors that in the first course they scored like crap for any number of reasons, but in the second course they drove like a bat out of hell and came back to place in the top 5, and vice versa. In this respect the Moab competition failed and it wasn't really a competiton at all.

Originally Posted by Grizzly4x4

6) I have suggested in my new draft that we have a max point system per gate, 10 points. If you try an obstacle and point out you have to bypass and get 10 points. If you accrue 1 point and bypass you get 10 points. But if you clear the gate driving you get a bonus of 1 point, and if you clear the gate without repositioning you get another 1 point bonus. This would reward the effort of driving rather than someone seeing that he might have trouble and bypassing the gate to get less points than someone who drove it. Plus, since fixing your truck will accrue a reposition penalty in the new rules, it will reward someone who finishes the section with parts hanging off.

Yes max points is a good idea. We did incorporate this in Moab. Bonus points make my head spin though...

Originally Posted by Grizzly4x4

Thoughts anyone?

[Fishmaxx]

Originally Posted by Grizzly4x4

Couple things I want to bring up.
1) I agree that a reposition should be 2 pts like Fish said.

I am glad you agree .......I want to see driving first.... a repostion should be the last resort .

Originally Posted by Grizzly4x4

3) In Moab it was said that it was ok to straddle a gate without penalty but it was also decided that we couldnt use the rock next to the gate to carry the tire over the gate. This is contradictory. I say straddling should be a penalty.

I agree again ......1 point per tire...........each gate should at least have 1 tire per axle through gate.

Originally Posted by Grizzly4x4

4) No offense to anyone but I think watching someone analyze every turn of the tires is boring. Competition should be exciting. I would like to see a time limit on stages. Each stage would have 4-6 gates and the time limit would be such that you better hurry up, something like 5 minutes per stage. Gate penalties would be a given.

I still think the MAX points rule will eliminate 90% of the need for Time Keeping. Maybe a 1 point bonus for fastest through will cause the guys at the top to press a little..........and make a mistake

Originally Posted by Grizzly4x4

5) We need harder courses, a score of 3 points should not win an event. It should be more like 30 IMHO. Having obstacles that are almost impossible is not a bad thing.

6) I have suggested in my new draft that we have a max point system per gate, 10 points. If you try an obstacle and point out you have to bypass and get 10 points. If you accrue 1 point and bypass you get 10 points. But if you clear the gate driving you get a bonus of 1 point, and if you clear the gate without repositioning you get another 1 point bonus. This would reward the effort of driving rather than someone seeing that he might have trouble and bypassing the gate to get less points than someone who drove it. Plus, since fixing your truck will accrue a reposition penalty in the new rules, it will reward someone who finishes the section with parts hanging off.

I agree 3 points should not win an event. If the winning scores are around
30 then 10 points MAX per gate is about right. If its 3 it should be closer to
5 pts.

You can't determine one without considering the other

Basically I don't belive 1 gate should kill the rest of the event for a driver. 10 points for 1 gate when the winner has only 3 points for the entire event is crazy

I think point #6 is a little complicated............I had to read it 3 times.

I say to take all stratagy, and thinking out of it! Drive until you point out.
Besides why would you keep driving after you pointed out. If you have 12 points do you keep driving until you get past the gate then ... you get the 1 point bonus?

Do drivers with zero penalties -2 with the bonus pts ?

Griz I like what you are trying to do ........so don't take any of this the wrong way.

[kaetwo]

Grizz it's like your reading our mind. 8O (spookie really)

We need to build on our existing rules just as you and Pinch have pointed out. Here are some other things to add:

Body rules - A competator must run a body. It must be 10th scale or larger. It must originally have fenders although cutting off the fenders is okay. The reason for having fenders is to eliminate the use of like a Losi or Associated buggy body. It must have a cab and be the original length.

Max time per gait - Something like a max of 2min per gate, to keep a good pace and to increase the challenge. 1 point for each minute exceeded beyond the 2 min mark. Not to exceed 5 min or somthing.

A competator can only run 1 vehicle durring the event (by definition an event is that days worth of crawling, or a series of courses). For example, lets say Pinch and I hold a comp with 3 sections, each with 6 gates. A competator could only compete with 1 rig durring that event (3 sections) The exception to the rule would be if there where enough vehicles to break up an event into classes (shafties vs. clods or somthing)

A competator can not change his/her vehicle durring an event. Changing a vehicles wheelbase, hight or width is to be concidered a vehicle change and therefor illegal. I think it was you griz that stated "If I have to build a battle bot to compete then I just won't compete anymore" Well spoken.

Touching the vehicle in any way will result in a penalty. This includes battery changes, repairs, etc....TOUCHING THE CAR WHILE ON THE COURSE FOR ANY REASON WILL RESULT IN A POINT.

Battery changes & repairs will not stop the time. If there is a 2 min. max time per gate and your on 1:45 when your battery dies you will only have :15 seconds to change the battery. At that point you will get a time penalty, plus a point for touching the vehicle.

A competator cannot stand behind the crawler. If a vehicle hits its driver it is concidered touching the vehicle and a point will be acrude.

We need to set a max width and wheelbase.

Min. tire size of 6" max of ? 2.2 crawlers cannot share the same comp. as the pro series.

You cannot run more than 2 motors and they must be electric. (seems dumb to have to mention this but its all crossed our sick minds to put a motor on each wheel)

For each time a competator yells out a penalty and that individual is not a judge/score keeper, that person will accrue 100 points . HEHEHE Just kidding. I don't mind everyone watching the events, but just let the judges do there job.

When possible there should be 2 judges per vehicle on the course.

As for comparing real 1:1/full size crawler rules and features to R/C.....THEY ARE NOT THE SAME AND THEREFOR CANNOT BE SCORED OR JUDGE AS SUCH.

[Fishmaxx]

Originally Posted by kaetwo

A competator can not change his/her vehicle durring an event. Changing a vehicles wheelbase, hight or width is to be concidered a vehicle change and therefor illegal. I think it was you griz that stated "If I have to build a battle bot to compete then I just won't compete anymore" Well spoken.

I wasn't there for that Griz quote, but I was there when the disscussion that included Griz took place about not wanting to show up at a comp and have 25 trucks that looked the same.

I raced 12th scale carpet racers. They all looked the same.

I am sure this is a reaction to Kevins and Aces "adjustable" trucks.

Does this rule include going for offset to non-offset wheels?

What about different size tires like going from K Rocks to Kongs

Are limiting straps now illegal, or just adjusting them.

The body thing is cool, but what about tubers. Are they now also illegal?

We should also add a rule about using discontinued tires! Its not fair that only a few people have access to them.

Again I appreciate everyones effort on these rules, but you have to think about everyone!

[Destroyer]

I don't know about the body rule. What is a body really going to matter? Scale maybe, but then what about tubers. They don't have bodies, but they are scale looking. Why not buggy bodies? Some people already run them...ok, maybe I'm the only one...but anyway, I don't think bodies should really matter. Just keep the trucks within a certain size (width, length, and tire size) and it should be fine. As for repositions, I agree with Fishmaxx, they should be a last resort, so as to promote carefull driving, or at least semi-controlled kamikaze attempts.

Just a thought.
Destroyer

[Highmark]

I like the idea for a max points idea per gate, eleminates the need for a stop watch and it keeps the judges from watching time and the truck.

Body rules - A competator must run a body. It must be 10th scale or larger. It must originally have fenders although cutting off the fenders is okay. The reason for having fenders is to eliminate the use of like a Losi or Associated buggy body. It must have a cab and be the original length.

Several problems with this one; the previously mentioned tuber delima, the fact that everyone could just run the smallest body they can find and then cut the fenders and narrow it to the point of being nearly none-existant. I would like to see a rule like this but it needs some serious reworking. How about "There must be some means of makeing the truck appear astheticly simmiler to a full scale rig, if it is a body it must be at least (enter measurements of whatever floats your boat here)." I'm not sudgesting that we use that exact rule, it's just a start.....

Min. tire size of 6" max of ? 2.2 crawlers cannot share the same comp. as the pro series.

I swear 2.2 crawlers must scare the clod guys shitless or something

[PinchFlat]

Originally Posted by Fishmaxx

I wasn't there for that Griz quote, but I was there when the disscussion that included Griz took place about not wanting to show up at a comp and have 25 trucks that looked the same.

I raced 12th scale carpet racers. They all looked the same.

I am sure this is a reaction to Kevins and Aces "adjustable" trucks.

Personally I don't think Kevin's chassis made any differance eitherway towards his placement in Moab. Kevin is a good driver, that's why he did well, not because his trucks CG was adjustable. If Kevin had used his Mach 1 or a v2 he would have done just as well. How ever a few people did voice thier conserns to me in Moab, I told them what I just wrote... kevin is a good driver. The Slinky?... That's just a big heavy piece of shit... jk. All that said...We are trying to make an even, more competitive, competition. More of a drivers challenge.

Originally Posted by Fishmaxx

Does this rule include going for offset to non-offset wheels?

Well, we really haven't decided that... My though is, you set the truck up before the comp begins and it remains in that configuration for the remainder of the comp. no tire change, no track change, no wheelbase change no nothing

Originally Posted by Fishmaxx

What about different size tires like going from K Rocks to Kongs

tire size? just the minimun height for now. I ain't affraid of kongs

Originally Posted by Fishmaxx

Are limiting straps now illegal, or just adjusting them.

has anyone used adjustable liniting straps? Back to the set your truck up and don't touch it.

Originally Posted by Fishmaxx

The body thing is cool, but what about tubers. Are they now also illegal?

We have actually talked about this. Tubers would not require a body... as long as it is a full tuber and resembles a 1:1 tuber.

Originally Posted by Fishmaxx

We should also add a rule about using discontinued tires! Its not fair that only a few people have access to them.

I will be the first one to admit Tires do matter. A "great" tire can give some one more options to an obstical where running a "good" tireone would not have as many options. We have asked and voted at a previous competition of ours if we should only allow current production tires. No one voted in favor of this. If in the future there is a ban on, lets just say it, Giant Tracs, I wouldn't have a problem with that and I know Kaetwo wouldn't either.

Originally Posted by Fishmaxx

Again I appreciate everyones effort on these rules, but you have to think about everyone!

[PinchFlat]

Originally Posted by Destroyer

I don't know about the body rule. What is a body really going to matter? Scale maybe, but then what about tubers. They don't have bodies, but they are scale looking. Why not buggy bodies? Some people already run them...ok, maybe I'm the only one...but anyway, I don't think bodies should really matter. Just keep the trucks within a certain size (width, length, and tire size) and it should be fine. As for repositions, I agree with Fishmaxx, they should be a last resort, so as to promote carefull driving, or at least semi-controlled kamikaze attempts.

Just a thought.
Destroyer

Body make a HUGE difference in side hilling or climbing. The CG of a crawler changes dramaticly with a body on it. The weight of a body is a good percentage of an RC crawler. Running with no body or a tiny body is a big advantage. Tubers would not require a body... as long as it is a full tuber and resembles a 1:1 tuber.

[jason]

Originally Posted by kaetwo

Body rules - A competator must run a body. It must be 10th scale or larger. It must originally have fenders although cutting off the fenders is okay. The reason for having fenders is to eliminate the use of like a Losi or Associated buggy body. It must have a cab and be the original length.

I'm not sure why we need this rule, I run 90% of the time without a body, I figure if it doesn't help me get up an obstical why do I need it, I don't care how the thing looks, but if most want the rule, it isn't that big of a deal for me.

A competator can only run 1 vehicle durring the event (by definition an event is that days worth of crawling, or a series of courses). For example, lets say Pinch and I hold a comp with 3 sections, each with 6 gates. A competator could only compete with 1 rig durring that event (3 sections) The exception to the rule would be if there where enough vehicles to break up an event into classes (shafties vs. clods or somthing)

What defines the vehicle? If I break an axle can I fix it? If my esc fries, can I replace it? See what I mean? In 1:1 they say you have to start and finish the event with the same vehicle and by their definition all that includes is the engine block, everything else can be replaced. I'd say for rccrawling the definition of the vehicle be the chassis. We could replace anything, but the chassis.

A competator can not change his/her vehicle durring an event. Changing a vehicles wheelbase, hight or width is to be concidered a vehicle change and therefor illegal. I think it was you griz that stated "If I have to build a battle bot to compete then I just won't compete anymore" Well spoken.

Kinda limits the creativity that guys like Ace are coming up with, I'd suggest that you can change width and wheelbase, but only by remote, and at max width and max length it will still need to fit within our "BOX" This way guys wanting to change wheelbase would have to weight if it was worth it to them to hook up extra channels, figureout wiring, and carry the extra weight on the vehicle.

Touching the vehicle in any way will result in a penalty. This includes battery changes, repairs, etc....TOUCHING THE CAR WHILE ON THE COURSE FOR ANY REASON WILL RESULT IN A POINT.

I agree

Battery changes & repairs will not stop the time. If there is a 2 min. max time per gate and your on 1:45 when your battery dies you will only have :15 seconds to change the battery. At that point you will get a time penalty, plus a point for touching the vehicle.

Agree

A competator cannot stand behind the crawler. If a vehicle hits its driver it is concidered touching the vehicle and a point will be acrude.

I think you can stand wherever you want just be aware if you touch the vehicle in anyway, either on purpose, or by accident you will be penalized

We need to set a max width and wheelbase.

Like I said before, I set both of these using xfactor axles with kongs for the width, and the same vehicle with a 16" wheelbase for length. Remember we will be using overall length not wheelbase to limit the size of the vehicle. So as I stated a rig with kongs could only have a 16" wheel base, but if you run a smaller tire, your wheelbase can be longer and still fit in the box. I'd point out in the rules that it must easily drop into the box, otherwise someone might try to squeeze one in by compressing the tires.

Min. tire size of 6" max of ? 2.2 crawlers cannot share the same comp. as the pro series.

I say no max or min limits on tires, if it fits in the box, let them run 1" tires if they think they can get away with it.

You cannot run more than 2 motors and they must be electric. (seems dumb to have to mention this but its all crossed our sick minds to put a motor on each wheel)

So nitro guys won't be allowed? I agree with this, just checking. Most of the places we crawl are sensitive to noise, so I have no problem banning nitro. I agree that 2 motors is plenty, and would also add that the motors must be commercially available. This will keep the high $$$ guys from winding some special motor.

For each time a competator yells out a penalty and that individual is not a judge/score keeper, that person will accrue 100 points . HEHEHE Just kidding. I don't mind everyone watching the events, but just let the judges do there job.

When possible there should be 2 judges per vehicle on the course.

As for comparing real 1:1/full size crawler rules and features to R/C.....THEY ARE NOT THE SAME AND THEREFOR CANNOT BE SCORED OR JUDGE AS SUCH.

[Fishmaxx]

I really don't care about most of the points I brought up.

I am more concerned with the rules concerning driving, the course, and penalties.

I think the vehicles should look like something someone might see in 1.1 event. I think everything else goes. I love the creativity.

All the forms of racing in RC and 1.1 I am familiar with allows for adjustments between heats or pit stops.