Hopefully the Last Competition Rules Thread

[Fishmaxx]

Ok I have studied all the rules drafts and posts on 3 websites going back for the last year. I made notes and considered what seemed to be the consensus from the majority of the members’ posts.

The biggest sticking point I see is restricting the vehicles in any way. A lot of people want no restrictions of any kind. I personally would like to see some sort of definition of the type of vehicle used at competitions. What you and your buddies build to climb over your house is your business. I think most people want a RC version of what goes on in 1 to 1 events. A scale look and feel.

What if some of these rigs showed up:








Before you post some negative comment like those machines are toys, the suck, they aren't competitive, or whatever.............I and every other semi- intelligent member all ready know this. The point is what if someone took one of those concepts, and improved upon it. Stock Clods suck if left stock, but look what happens after some moding. Give some of these genius’ that hang out around here enough time and look out!


I don’t expect everyone to agree! Whether its Ford vs Chevy, Bush or Kerry, Taste Great or Less Filling, Shafty or Clod. People seem to have strong feelings about anything and everything.

Hopefully we can minimize negative, and more forward and finish this up soon!

[Fishmaxx]

Basically Grizz's Draft slighly modified.

Event Scoring & Rules
Overview

COURSE SET UP
Course will be designed with a 1/10, 1/8 scale RC truck in mind. A course can be comprised of multiple stages or sections. Sections should be comprised of multiple gates. Competitors are allowed a specific amount of time to walk and assess each stage before their time for the stage actually starts. The courses will be set up so beginners and advanced drivers will enjoy the event. The courses will start out easy and increase in difficulty throughout the event.

SCORING
Lowest number of points wins. Competitors start each stage with zero points. Penalties are added to the competitors score and earned points are deducted from the competitors score.
Introduction:

The competitors score will be the sum of all points issued minus the sum of all bonus points earned throughout the entire event. Lowest total score wins. There are no limits on vehicle design or motive of power


Starting Position:
Position in the starting lineup for each event is chosen randomly. All subsequent sections the first to start will be the one with the lowest score in the previous section and the second to start will be the next lowest and so on.



Penalties

Penalties/earned points can be used or omitted from individual events as long as an announcement is given at the drivers meeting prior to the event.

Penalties (+)
1 pts = Reversing
2 pts = Reposition
1 pts = Touching
1 pts = Repairs
1 pts = Rollover
1 pts = Gate Marker
5-10 pts = Gate Bypass (Based on course Difficulty)

Bonus Points (-)
1 pts = Fastest section completion time (Puts pressure on driver to make decisions quickly which may turn into mistakes)



Penalty Definitions:

Reversing: If a vehicle reverses course more than a body length from forward progress a penalty is incurred.
Once a reverse penalty has been assessed, no further reverse penalty can be assessed until the vehicle makes forward progress on the course.


Reposition: If a vehicle is unable to progress it may be repositioned on the course provided that the vehicle is not placed any closer to or breaking the plane of a gate (crossing the line). The driver may reposition the vehicle but the marshal repositioning the vehicle will resolve any discrepancies.

Touching: Touching any part of the vehicle.

Rollover: If a vehicle tips over and ends up in a position such that it cannot continue the course a rollover penalty will be incurred.
The vehicle must be repositioned within ½ the vehicles wheelbase of where it ends up or the closest point within the course boundary. No reposition penalty will be incurred.

Gate Marker:
1) Touching a gate marker with any part of the vehicle.
2) Any tire passing outside or touching the intended gate results in a penalty.
A penalty is incurred every time a gate marker, or the area where a gate marker was intended to be, is touched until that gate is cleared

Gate Bypass:
When a competitor chooses to reposition the vehicle past a gate that has not been cleared.
You may choose to by-pass any gate at any time during your run. When a competitor has reached a score equal to the Bypass Penalty in a section they cannot receive any additional points. The maximum amount of penalty points a driver can receive on any gate is between 5-10 points

Gates/Clearing Gates:
A “gate” is a set of 2 markers and the invisible line between them.
All gates must be cleared to earn credit.
Clearing a gate is defined as three tires passing over the invisible line between two gate markers. Two tires on the same axle must be completely past the line while the third tire must be through far enough for the marshal to determine that the point where the axle and wheel meet has past the line as well. At least three tires completely past the line constitutes a cleared gate, anything less will be left to the marshal’s discretion provided they follow the previous criteria.
Vehicles may clear gates in forward or reverse as long as the vehicle is traveling in the intended course direction.
A gate can not be cleared by the vehicle rolling, tumbling, or sliding through the gate. The marshal must be able to determine that the gate was cleared before the vehicle began rolling, tumbling, or sliding.
Gates must be run in order and cleared in the intended direction of travel.
A vehicle may travel back through, or continue on through, any cleared gate without losing credit for that gate and cannot be given any marker penalties for the cleared gate.

Breakdowns / Running Order:
If a vehicle breaks down or a battery needs to be changed, the stage time will stop and the competitor will be given 1minute to repair the vehicle or replace the battery. If the repair will exceed the remaining stage time limit the competitor may ask to fall out of order.

Vehicles falling out of order may resume the stage but must restart from the last cleared gate. Any penalties incurred during the partially completed stage will be retained on the competitors score. When the competitor is ready to resume the stage, the marshal and the next competitor on stage must both agree to let the competitor resume.

At their discretion, event marshals can change the running order due to breakdowns or delays.

Vehicle Requirements:
Open Class: Intended for vehicles with very few limits on modifications.

Vehicle propulsion must be by 4 tires only.

Vehicle must have a body and/or tubular chassis resembling a buggy or body.

Maximum Vehicle Length ? x Width ? ( "Jason's Box" Idea ?)

OTHER:
Sportsmanship:
Everyone is expected to conduct themselves in a proper manner towards spectators, event officials, other competitors and anyone else associated with the events. Penalties for poor conduct can be assessed by stage officials and event Marshals ranging from -5pts to total disqualification.

Tie-Breaker:
Least points earned at last Stage of the event, 2nd to last Stage of the event, etc

Protests:
Protests will be heard and addressed up until 30 minutes after the last stage of each respective class has been closed. All protests must be presented to an event Marshall.

[badtodabone]

whats wrong with kidwithacrayon's tlt 1?

[4XADICT]

Those look good. Except the BOX thing, the only thing the Box is good for is something to sit on when repairing the crawler.

[NeoSlayer888]

Vehicle propulsion must be by 4 tires only

I think that takes care of any legged vehicles or ones with threads. Personally, I would like to know peoples opinion about using a winch in compition. As for the rules, I like them. They seem fair and seem to allow you to work on your rig when you are not competing so you can do things like change tires, wheelbase, ect.

[Fishmaxx]

Originally Posted by badtodabone

whats wrong with kidwithacrayon's tlt 1?

The Winch 8O

[KidWithAcrayon]

w00t, I'm famous lol....

This is for the bigger rigs right?? Not the scale looking rigs.... If it was the scale crawling group, you would have to have a winch...

[Fishmaxx]

65 views, and the most controversial thing so far is about using a winch 8O

Don't get me wrong I am not complaining [/b]

[DirkDigler]

If you use a winch, then you'd probably be penalized 1 point, right? Well, what is the difference in using the winch and a reposition? You might as well just pick the truck up with your hands. The winch to me, just seems to be a novelty.

My question is this: 4 wheel steering....do we penalize for using it?
My new truck will probably not use 4ws. Do I take points off my score if I don't use it? Or what about this idea: If I get 10 points on one obstical for backing up(10 times) but I never used 4wheel steering...the judges would remove HALF of the back up points, totalling 5 points???

How do we handle this 4wheel steering thing because almost everyone uses it now?....and I'm thinking that the ones that don't use it should be rewarded in some way.

[KidWithAcrayon]

Maybe you could say u get 1/2 point each time you use a winch... or 1/3 points...

[NeoSlayer888]

How about half a point penalty for backing up or double the distance you can back up before you are penalized, if you are running 2ws.

In my opinion, there should be no reward for only 2ws. 4ws is easy to implement so I don’t see any reason why someone should not run 4ws in a comp. I guess using 2ws would get you bragging rights and a greater challenge or most likely teach you to pick lines better while practicing.

[NeoSlayer888]

I see Fishmaxx edited his post to include the box theory. I am opposed to the box, I feel that the gates should be wide enough to fit an X axle with full width Kongs and if someone’s rig won’t fit through the gate then to bad for you.

[Fishmaxx]

Originally Posted by NeoSlayer888

I see Fishmaxx edited his post to include the box theory. I am opposed to the box, I feel that the gates should be wide enough to fit an X axle with full width Kongs and if someone’s rig won’t fit through the gate then to bad for you.

The gate width idea went around 6 months ago..........People bitched about that too.

Originally Posted by WannaBeDigler

The winch to me, just seems to be a novelty.

We have 1 or 2 guys on this entire board messing with winchs. I say lets kill it now as far as compititions go!


The 4WS ?.................Its a little late to undo whats been done, as Digler said most people have it now. Besides it would be a nightmare the judge.
I have seen wheels turn under force of the rocks, not fron steering. Do you start penalizing for that.......How would a judge now? I assumed most people would be using rear steer, but if a lot of people are against it.......then I think bonus points for not HAVING it at all should be given to begin with.

If you try and penalize for using it during a run...........I see a big fight coming!

[JasonInAugusta]

The more rules you throw at it, the bigger of a problem it'll be to judge.

As far as gates...decide on a minimum width.

Each pass should also be timed so that in the event of a points tie, fastest time wins.

[toyofast]

Originally Posted by Fishmaxx

Vehicle propulsion must be by 4 tires only.

I don't completly agree with this... then one of our guys wouldn't be allowed to run his Mog.

Originally Posted by Fishmaxx

We have 1 or 2 guys on this entire board messing with winchs. I say lets kill it now as far as compititions go!

Not exactly correct. A lot of the ORCRC group has winches but on their Team Trials rigs. But ya see those of us in Oregon must be on another planet from everyone else We hardly ever get any reconition for our comps.... form my understanding ORCRC is one of the oldest crawling groups in the US? October of 2003(according to our Yahoo Groups site) But now I'm just rambling on......

Back to what I was trying to get at... With ORCRC we have very basic rules( CLICK FOR ORCRC RULES) and our Scale Team Trials Trucks has rules too but made for the scale crowd(TEAM TRIALS RULES) We just have it nice and basic so eveyone can have fun... although I do expect a more advance class to pop up if more people continue to show up and run. We'll have to keep the n00bs in one class and have the advanced guys in another but the rules wil still remain pretty much the same.


Back to your regular competition rule discussion....

[badtodabone]

We have 1 or 2 guys on this entire board messing with winchs. I say lets kill it now as far as compititions go

i agree

[Fishmaxx]

Toyofast:

Do you think its possible to write rules that will allow every extreme example you can come up with? The line has to be drawn some were. Some body will be left out.


I said members on this board using winchs..............If some of your members are using winchs and ladders more power to them. I was not aware of the practice.

I now realize why previous attempts to finalize a work set of rules have failed.


Instead of just shooting down ideas you should offer solutions.

[toyofast]

Originally Posted by Fishmaxx

The courses will be set up so beginners and advanced drivers will enjoy the event. The courses will start out easy and increase in difficulty throughout the event.

If the turnout is large enough to split up into two different groups(beginners & advanced) then do it. Otherwise someone will feel cheated by the course only being setup for the guy who knows how to drive or has a better truck.

Originally Posted by Fishmaxx

Reversing: If a vehicle reverses course more than a body length from forward progress a penalty is incurred.

How would you address a tube rig body length? Go with one wheelbase length to make it more reasonable for everyone.

Originally Posted by Fishmaxx

Clearing a gate is defined as three tires passing over the invisible line between two gate markers. Two tires on the same axle must be completely past the line while the third tire must be through far enough for the marshal to determine that the point where the axle and wheel meet has past the line as well. At least three tires completely past the line constitutes a cleared gate, anything less will be left to the marshal’s discretion provided they follow the previous criteria.

Wait... only 3 tires need to pass to clear a gate? That'd make it easy to cut corners wouldn't it? Just make it 4 tires and then nothing is left up to a course marshal to make decision about... you either made it or didn't. Cutting corners is cheating to me.

Originally Posted by Fishmaxx

A gate can not be cleared by the vehicle rolling, tumbling, or sliding through the gate. The marshal must be able to determine that the gate was cleared before the vehicle began rolling, tumbling, or sliding.

Wouldn't this leave out extreme side hills? Especially where the tougher gates would be placed? If you had 3 tires passing but the fourth slid into the gate would that count or be called as a sliding rig that didn't pass the gate?

Originally Posted by Fishmaxx

If a vehicle breaks down or a battery needs to be changed, the stage time will stop and the competitor will be given 1minute to repair the vehicle or replace the battery. If the repair will exceed the remaining stage time limit the competitor may ask to fall out of order.

I don't know why you guys allow time to stop. Just give each course a 10 minute limit and leave it. If you battery dumps you should evaluate your power issues. If you break, well then... better fix it before time runs out or just haul ass untill your rig decides to give up all together.

Although.... this is where a line can be drawn for the advanced and newbie drivers. Newbies can have more relaxed rules.. while the advanced drivers don't get the baby me rules. Advanced guys it should be serious and drive like it's serious.

Originally Posted by Fishmaxx

Vehicles falling out of order may resume the stage but must restart from the last cleared gate. Any penalties incurred during the partially completed stage will be retained on the competitors score. When the competitor is ready to resume the stage, the marshal and the next competitor on stage must both agree to let the competitor resume.

What's this? If you breakdown or get tired you can stop your competition and then restart when you feel like it? Dumb. Give 'em 10 minutes for the course and call it good. If you fail to finish the course in 10 minutes then so what... you lost.

Just too many relaxed rules for all the seriousness you have placed onto these rules.

Originally Posted by Fishmaxx

Open Class: Intended for vehicles with very few limits on modifications.

Sounds good.

Originally Posted by Fishmaxx

Vehicle propulsion must be by 4 tires only.

But we only need 3 to clear a gate? odd....

Originally Posted by Fishmaxx

Vehicle must have a body and/or tubular chassis resembling a buggy or body.

Wouldn't this change the "Open Class" guidlines? For having very few limits on modifications this would limit it wouldn't it?

Originally Posted by Fishmaxx

Maximum Vehicle Length ? x Width ? ( "Jason's Box" Idea ?)

This small rule would also put a damping on the "Open Class", wouldn't it? Why put limits on length or width? If you do those two you better include weight, height and overall uglyness.

Originally Posted by Fishmaxx

Tie-Breaker:
Least points earned at last Stage of the event, 2nd to last Stage of the event, etc

Why not have a crawl-off to decide the winner? Have a simple course setup and who ever finishes the fastest wins... or make a rather tough short course and go with that.





About time to make at least two seperate set of rules.....

- Newbies
- Advanced

For the Newbies you can have you relaxed no time limit rules and help the guy out stuff(better start the comp at 6am so you can get home before dark with no time limits happening).... For the Advanced it's a no cry babies, limited time per course, strict rules for how you run the courses and have unlimited modifications.


There, I tried to add my point of view to this headache of figuring out rules.

[Fishmaxx]

Toyo.... out of almost 150 views with no serious negative feedback and you manage to write a page. 8O

Considering this draft is a combination of the Utah Rules, Aussie Rules, Kevin's ARC, and Griz's Draft. I only combined what was already written by others.

Its to late to take on all your comments, but I'll go at a few

Your course set up comment make no sense.....what are you trying to say?

Wheel base or body in regards to reversing........who cares. I thought it would be easier on the judge. Which wheels would you use on the Mog? The outer most?

If only three tires go through a gate 1 pt penelty occurs, and the driver continues on the course. If thats cheating what would you have the driver do? Start over? Gates are not used as awards in this system. Gates are used more as boundaries.

I think they intent of the "falling out of order" was to permit drivers to fix their vehicle while the competition continues not so the driver could rest. Do you actually want the comp to come to a stop for 10 minutes.

I do'nt know how far you travel to compete, but its not uncommon for many drivers to travel several hours. I flew to Crawlstock this year fro Atlanta, and I am planning to go to Moab and one of Kevins AZ events next year.

If I have to use ladders & winchs to compete, and would be dropped if I could not fix my truck in 10 minutes. I don't think Oregon will be on my list.

Originally Posted by toyofast

But ya see those of us in Oregon must be on another planet from everyone else We hardly ever get any reconition for our comps.... .

hmmmmm

[Fishmaxx]

Originally Posted by Fishmaxx

Vehicle propulsion must be by 4 tires only.

Originally Posted by toyofast

But we only need 3 to clear a gate? odd....

With a one point penelty..........

Originally Posted by Fishmaxx

Maximum Vehicle Length ? x Width ? ( "Jason's Box" Idea ?)

Originally Posted by toyofast

This small rule would also put a damping on the "Open Class"............... better include weight, height and overall uglyness.

Does the phrase " Open Class" bother you???? In that case then what do you think it should be called for the drivers who want to compete against vehicles similar to something you sell on your website.

Originally Posted by Fishmaxx

Tie-Breaker:
Least points earned at last Stage of the event, 2nd to last Stage of the event, etc

Originally Posted by toyofast

Why not have a crawl-off to decide the winner? Have a simple course setup and who ever finishes the fastest wins... or make a rather tough short course and go with that.

About the only constructive comment in your post

Originally Posted by toyofast

About time to make at least two seperate set of rules.....

- Newbies
- Advanced

For the Newbies you can have you relaxed no time limit rules and help the guy out stuff(better start the comp at 6am so you can get home before dark with no time limits happening).... For the Advanced it's a no cry babies, limited time per course, strict rules for how you run the courses and have unlimited modifications.

I still think its to early for multiple classes for most groups. Crawlstock had less than 10 drivers, and so did Green River.

Originally Posted by toyofast

There, I tried to add my point of view to this headache of figuring out rules.

As for you point of view ACE's avatar comes to mind