Another Rule thread.

[TwistedCreations]

yes they have a bypass rule, but yet you almost max out your points if you take the bypass. so that kinda makes the person not bypass

[Fishmaxx]

Originally Posted by TwistedCreations

yes they have a bypass rule, but yet you almost max out your points if you take the bypass. so that kinda makes the person not bypass

Thats the way it should be!

By passes= max out should be equal with neither give you an advantage like JIA
described.

[kevinlongisland]

i much prefer a watered down version of the rcc rules, which is what we run at the boulder battles. it keeps it simple and true to hard core rock crawling and rewards skillful, precise driving. We could probably argue till we are blue in the face how full size rock crawling does and does not relate to scale crawlers. but in this case i have to say that in general the full size rules have worked out most of the bugs and focused on what does and does not reward skillful driving.

Boulder Battle Rules
Sunday, February 27, 2005
Modified RCCrawler Rule Book


1. Reverse = 1 point (any reverse at all, not 1 wheelbase length)

2. Stop for more than 4 seconds= 1 point

3. Cone = 10 points

4. Rollover replacement = 10 points. If you rolled and could drive out of it, no penalty. If you had to flip it back over manually, 10 points. You also have the option on any rollover you can drive out of to re-position where the rollover occurred. This will incur a 10 point penalty.

5. Falling off ledge/course or wheels jammed between rocks requiring reposition=10 points. Vehicle will be repositioned within one wheelbase length of location before violation. No forward progress allowed when repositioning.

6. Boundary Marker offense = 40 points. If any part of the vehicle touches a boundary marker.

7. Bonus Gates = 5-50 points. Bonus points will be awarded for successfully negotiating a bonus gate.

8. Max points per obstacle= 40

[jason]

I just read the newest UROC rules, that were just released last night. They are basicly the same except they dropped the stop penalty.

I have had several people here ask me to drop the stop penalty, due to safety reasons for the driver having to climb around on rocks. How do you all feel about that?

Also do people like Kevins ideas?

I'd really just like to get one set of rules to use as a standard across the country.

[TwistedCreations]

they sound simple, but the boundry maker is 40 points, when a cone is only 10? if you touch the boundry marker, you might aswell just pick up your truck and quit that section since you done maxed out points at 40. whats the use of going on and risk breaking something for the next section

[BENDER]

I like the set of rules Kev posted. It still penalizes you for a rollover, if you can't drive out. If your bound up and can't get out it allows you to reposition, with a penalty, which I think is fair. I like the forward progress rule myself, but I don't think it's super critical. I'm definitey not a fan of bypasses, another reason I like Kevs rules. I think we should ALL be using the same rules too, and IMO Kev's rules are a good combo for people competeing, and spectators. Just my 2 cents.

[jason]

How about we allow repositions, but only it a backwards direction 1 wheelbase length. Not backwards from the way the rig is pointed, but backwards as far as the course?

If you could reposition in a foward or sideways direction it would be an advantage to help you miss an obstical. But if you can only reposition you still have to run the course as it was intended, and it would get you out of a situation where you were bound up.

Does a ten point penalty sound good for that?

[BENDER]

Originally Posted by jason

How about we allow repositions, but only it a backwards direction 1 wheelbase length. Not backwards from the way the rig is pointed, but backwards as far as the course?

If you could reposition in a foward or sideways direction it would be an advantage to help you miss an obstical. But if you can only reposition you still have to run the course as it was intended, and it would get you out of a situation where you were bound up.

Does a ten point penalty sound good for that?

That sounds fair to me.

[kevinlongisland]

yeh, i think the 40 point boundary should be less. what type of points does uroc have for boundary markers? i think maybe 10, the same as a cone, sounds good.

if you have a time limit per obstacle/coarse, i don't think a stop penalty will matter much. won't bother me a bit if that rule is eliminated.

i'm personally not a big fan of repositions. if your truck flipped or is stuck or bound up, of course you have to have accommodations for this type of thing. but if a truck is moving, the driver can reverse or do something to "reposition" without actually touching the truck. i think if you really want a reposition rule, make it a severe penalty, like 25 points. this will discourage it's use.

[jason]

UROC boundrys are 40 points, as soon as you hit a boundry you are done. Boundrys in UROC are usually streamers that seperate the crowd from the rigs. At any of our events we have not even had boundrys, so maybe we could just eliminate that rule, as it is more for spectator safety, which we don't really have to deal with in rc stuff.

I totally hate repositions, but if they are allowed we will all use them when we get stuck bad. I think this is the only time they will be used, because if we write the rule so that you can only move your rig backwards, it really doesn't give them an advantage as they still have to go through the obsticle. If they can't make the obstical they will either time out, or point out from hitting cones, rolling over, ect.

[kevinlongisland]

we haven't used boundaries yet either. the only good thing i can see with boundaries is that sometimes you can use them to make a certain obstacle more difficult. i think that could be a huge advantage to those who don't have such awesome terrain like us.

i think a standard reposition rule is ok as long as the penalty is severe enough, this will encourage drivers to take reverse points instead and try to get out of that spot. we all love great saves!

[jason]

what does everyone think about making the reposition rule read like this.

A reposition penalty of Twenty (20) points will be assesed for manually repositioning your vehilce. In doing a reposition you are only allowed to move you vehicle 1 wheelbase lenght in a backwards direction (towards the start gate). You are not allowed at anytime to reposition your vehicle around an obstacle, over an obstacle, or in a foward progress direction.

[kevinlongisland]

sounds good. 20 points sounds like a good penalty. although i could see some instances where only one wheelbase would not be enough to get someone out of a jam. at boulder battle 2, valley of death required many repositions of 2-5 wheelbases because it was such a difficult long section that sucked you in. Would it be a problem to allow reposition in a reverse direction of any distance?

also, i would like to add what i think a set of rules should do. I think what needs to be awarded more than anything else is overcoming extremely difficult obstacles. I base my rules around this. Other rules i believe are based more on handling and agility, which is part of rock crawling, but i don't believe should be the focus. That’s why i think reverses should in no way be the same penalty as a rollover, etc. Extremely difficult obstacles will require multiple attempts to conquer, requiring reverses.

There are also things that we intentionally don't include in the rules that will be up to the judges and drivers to decide for each event. Or, the rules don't cover every conceivable situation nor do i want them to. we do this to leave some leeway in the rules. for example, touching the vehicle or vehicle breakage. depending on the type of event, you may not want to be so strict to that if something simple breaks you are severely penalized for it.

just my $.02

[jason]

I have no problem making a reposition distance unlimited but only in a reverse direction. Anyone else?

[BENDER]

Originally Posted by jason

what does everyone think about making the reposition rule read like this.

A reposition penalty of Twenty (20) points will be assesed for manually repositioning your vehilce. In doing a reposition you are only allowed to move you vehicle 1 wheelbase lenght in a backwards direction (towards the start gate). You are not allowed at anytime to reposition your vehicle around an obstacle, over an obstacle, or in a foward progress direction.

I like this rule, with the unlimted reverse distance. I agree with kevinlongisland about WB length, as it may not be enough in some cases. I didn't really think of that before. With it set-up like that a rig could still suffer more penalty points just getting back to previous position, which is another price to pay.

Let's just make boundaries optional event to event, and hold less of a penalty if hit, say 20 points for that too.

[TwistedCreations]

yeah i like the repositon, as long as it is backwards. i like it so that you can make back to where you want. cause if your only allowed to move back 1WB length, your basically right back into the position that got you in trouble in the first place.

as for boundry gates, are they wider than the actual gates? how many boundry gates are there in a section- from start to finish gate? i see making so many of them to keep the course laid out, but if its a tough trail and most boundry gates are on an off camber situation, more than likely, your gonna slide down towards that boundry maker. if they are 20 points, and you hit 2 you might aswell pick up the truck and just take a timeout because max points are 40..i think it should be based on how many boundry gates there are. if there are several, i think it should be about 5 points. if there are only a few, then 10 points.I understand its a comp, but shit happens and don't think someone should get maxxed out by sliding down and hitting a cone before they even get halfway into a course.Plus from what i hear, that would knock Chris and Pete out of the comp quick

BTW- how wide is the point gates? im too busy right now to go look

[BENDER]

Twisted gates are 20" wide.

[jason]

Just to clairify seems some people don't understand, once you hit 40 point, no matter how you got it, 40 reverses, 4 cones, or any combination of anything, you are done. 40 is the most points you can get. Most of the time at the colorado events since we are there to have fun we just let the guys finish, if they want to. However if we are short on time and you hit 40 you are done and the next guy starts.

[jason]

Here is a pic that shows some boundrys at a uroc event. They are all of the banners, basically they are used to keep us out of the crowd and vise versa. They also use them sometime when 2 courses are right next to each other, to keep us apart.

[kevinlongisland]

for r/c, i think the biggest advantage of boundaries would be to make a simple obstacle more difficult by setting up a difficult line, etc. you can make a simple course difficult by the way you place gates and boundary lines with chalk. boundaries are not required. i think boundaries should be the same as gates, 10 points.

boundaries are not laid out through the entire course. just where it makes more challenging lines. gates will always vary in width due to the obstacle. a gate could be 4 foot wide, if there is only one way up through a large crevice and no where to put the gate markers inside the crevice.

we do the same thing with the 40 points. if you get 40 on a gate and we are constrained for time, move on. if it's casual and we have time we will allow the driver to continue attempting the gate. we only point out per gate, so if you point out a gate, you bypass to the next. this is a good example of why we leave some leeway in the rules.

do you guys think we should make reposition 15 points so people can at least get away with two repositions if need be without pointing out. i think this will allow drivers more attempts at an obstacle, while still giving a good penalty.

so how does this sound so far (and where is the scoring nazi!!!):

1. Reverse = 1 point (any reverse at all, not 1 wheelbase length)


(delete this? yes/no) 2. Stop for more than 4 seconds= 1 point

3. Cone = 10 points

4. Rollover replacement = 10 points. If you rolled and could drive out of it, no penalty. If you had to flip it back over manually, 10 points. You also have the option on any rollover you can drive out of to re-position where the rollover occurred. This will incur a 10 point penalty.

5. Reposition = 15 or 20 points?. Vehicle can be repositioned any distance behind the last point of forward progress. No forward progress allowed when repositioning.

6. Boundary Marker offense = 10 points. If any part of the vehicle touches a boundary marker.

7. Bonus Gates = 5-50 points. Bonus points will be awarded for successfully negotiating a bonus gate.

8. Max points per obstacle= 40