Another Rule thread.

[TwistedCreations]

Originally Posted by jason

Just to clairify seems some people don't understand, once you hit 40 point, no matter how you got it, 40 reverses, 4 cones, or any combination of anything, you are done. 40 is the most points you can get. Most of the time at the colorado events since we are there to have fun we just let the guys finish, if they want to. However if we are short on time and you hit 40 you are done and the next guy starts.

yeah that's why i mentioned about the boundry gates. if they were 40 points or even 20 points and you hit 1 or 2 before the 1st ten feet, you might aswell just pick up your rig and wait til the next course and not risk breakin it for the next course. but if you seriously hit 2 cones within 10 ft., you really don't need to be competing but that's why i'm bringing that up cause you all know it will happen and if a newbie in this sport comes out to a comp and hits the boundry lines and gets the max points real quick in each section, it's possible that he may never even come to another comp. That's why i suggested 5 or 10 point penalty( depending on how many boundry gates there is between start and finish), that way it's kind of encouraging that person to still keep going and finish the course and not to either pick up the rig and quit the section or freaggin bypass.

just my opinion though, i have never been to a comp personally anyway, so i may just need to STFU

[BENDER]

Originally Posted by kevinlongisland

for r/c, i think the biggest advantage of boundaries would be to make a simple obstacle more difficult by setting up a difficult line, etc. you can make a simple course difficult by the way you place gates and boundary lines with chalk. boundaries are not required. i think boundaries should be the same as gates, 10 points.

boundaries are not laid out through the entire course. just where it makes more challenging lines. gates will always vary in width due to the obstacle. a gate could be 4 foot wide, if there is only one way up through a large crevice and no where to put the gate markers inside the crevice.

we do the same thing with the 40 points. if you get 40 on a gate and we are constrained for time, move on. if it's casual and we have time we will allow the driver to continue attempting the gate. we only point out per gate, so if you point out a gate, you bypass to the next. this is a good example of why we leave some leeway in the rules.

do you guys think we should make reposition 15 points so people can at least get away with two repositions if need be without pointing out. i think this will allow drivers more attempts at an obstacle, while still giving a good penalty.

so how does this sound so far (and where is the scoring nazi!!!):

1. Reverse = 1 point (any reverse at all, not 1 wheelbase length)


(delete this? yes/no) 2. Stop for more than 4 seconds= 1 point

3. Cone = 10 points

4. Rollover replacement = 10 points. If you rolled and could drive out of it, no penalty. If you had to flip it back over manually, 10 points. You also have the option on any rollover you can drive out of to re-position where the rollover occurred. This will incur a 10 point penalty.

5. Reposition = 15 or 20 points?. Vehicle can be repositioned any distance behind the last point of forward progress. No forward progress allowed when repositioning.

6. Boundary Marker offense = 10 points. If any part of the vehicle touches a boundary marker.

7. Bonus Gates = 5-50 points. Bonus points will be awarded for successfully negotiating a bonus gate.

8. Max points per obstacle= 40

2. I can go either way with, it's not really critical IMO.

5. 15 points is fair for reposition.

Where is the Nazi?

[Grizzly4x4]

Man, so many posts to try and keep up with.
Here is my thoughts based on having been to alot of comps and driving a long ways to get there.
1) I would not drive 8hrs to a comp if I knew that one missed tire placement could render my vehicle immovable and into DNF land. It is bad enough to drive a long ways to only get 30 minutes of competition time. Let alone 2 min if you get stuck. I think there needs to be reposition rules to allow this.

2) Reverse penalties for any intentional reverse is ok but I think it slows down the action, I hate long boring runs across the course where people think too much. I want to see people pushing hard to make it through the course. Slow technical stuff is boring, I want full throttle, wheel hopping, tire bouncing action. I think the 1 wheelbase rule that UTRCRC has is good because people dont worry about every reverse, they just back up and go for it again.

3) For the same reason as above, I like the stop penalty. Keep the rigs moving.

4) Boundaries are cool but I dont think they should cost you the course. If you roll over into a boundary and it ends your day, that sucks.

I edited Kevin's post to highlight what I would like to see.

Originally Posted by kevinlongisland

1. Reverse = 2 point (any reverse at all, not 1 wheelbase length)


(delete this? yes/no) 2. Stop for more than 4 seconds= 5 point

3. Cone = 5 points

4. Rollover replacement = 5 points. If you rolled and could drive out of it, no penalty. If you had to flip it back over manually, 10 points. You also have the option on any rollover you can drive out of to re-position where the rollover occurred. This will incur a 5 point penalty.

5. Reposition = 15 points. Vehicle can be repositioned any distance behind the last point of forward progress. No forward progress allowed when repositioning.

6. Boundary Marker offense = 10 points. If any part of the vehicle touches a boundary marker.

7. Bonus Gates = 5-50 points. Bonus points will be awarded for successfully negotiating a bonus gate.

8. Max points per course= 40

9. Gate Bypass = 20 points. Repositioning the vehicle through a gate to make forward progress. 5 penalty points must be accrued before a gate can be bypassed.

I think a gate bypass is good because it promotes difficult obstacles but still allows the competitors to continue on the course. Maybe everyone has to bypass but one guy makes it, good for them. Could you imagine driving 8 hours, getting to that first obstacle we had in Red Rocks and pointing out on it? I'd be seriously bummed, plus it was boring and frustrating watching everyone flounder on it. I think nearly impossible obstacles are great but with a bypass we could have all continued on the course instead of all pointing out.

The bottom line is I would like this to be a first person shooter video game, not a chess game. For the drivers and the spectators sake both. Make the penalties fairly small so that driving through the couse is rewarded and super difficult obstacles and risk taking maneuvors don't eliminate you from a podium finish.

[Grizzly4x4]

Oh,

I think boundaries should be optional so that the course builder can use them or not.

I also think that every course should be timed and the time limit should be such that you have to hurry to finish wiithin the time limit. Someone that does not finish under the time limit still has their score recorded, but anyone who finishes within the time limit is placed ahead of them. Regardless of points accrued.

I also read something about the ORCRC guys allowing gate bypasses but if you bypass a gate, everyone who drove through every gate gets placed ahead of you regardless of points. I thought that was kinda cool.

[BENDER]

You're right about the Red Rocks comp, that first obstacle was brutal to crawl/watch.

What about the 40pts per gate thing? We had like 5 or 6 gates per 40pts at both of the comps I've attended.

[Grizzly4x4]

Originally Posted by BENDER

What about the 40pts per gate thing? We had like 5 or 6 gates per 40pts at both of the comps I've attended.

Oh you mean this?

8. Max points per obstacle= 40

I didn't notice it said "per obstacle" I think peoples definition of obstacle varies.

If you have 6 gates on a course I think the max points should be 40 for the course.

[BENDER]

Originally Posted by kevinlongisland

for r/c, i think the biggest advantage of boundaries would be to make a simple obstacle more difficult by setting up a difficult line, etc. you can make a simple course difficult by the way you place gates and boundary lines with chalk. boundaries are not required. i think boundaries should be the same as gates, 10 points.

boundaries are not laid out through the entire course. just where it makes more challenging lines. gates will always vary in width due to the obstacle. a gate could be 4 foot wide, if there is only one way up through a large crevice and no where to put the gate markers inside the crevice.

we do the same thing with the 40 points. if you get 40 on a gate and we are constrained for time, move on. if it's casual and we have time we will allow the driver to continue attempting the gate. we only point out per gate, so if you point out a gate, you bypass to the next. this is a good example of why we leave some leeway in the rules.

do you guys think we should make reposition 15 points so people can at least get away with two repositions if need be without pointing out. i think this will allow drivers more attempts at an obstacle, while still giving a good penalty.

so how does this sound so far (and where is the scoring nazi!!!):

1. Reverse = 1 point (any reverse at all, not 1 wheelbase length)


(delete this? yes/no) 2. Stop for more than 4 seconds= 1 point

3. Cone = 10 points

4. Rollover replacement = 10 points. If you rolled and could drive out of it, no penalty. If you had to flip it back over manually, 10 points. You also have the option on any rollover you can drive out of to re-position where the rollover occurred. This will incur a 10 point penalty.

5. Reposition = 15 or 20 points?. Vehicle can be repositioned any distance behind the last point of forward progress. No forward progress allowed when repositioning.

6. Boundary Marker offense = 10 points. If any part of the vehicle touches a boundary marker.

7. Bonus Gates = 5-50 points. Bonus points will be awarded for successfully negotiating a bonus gate.

8. Max points per obstacle= 40

I may have misunderstood it, but the 3rd paragraph down in this quote.

[Plays_with_Toys]

I agree with griz. Get down to the nitty gritty and "git-r-done!" I can't stand sitting there as someone slowly wiggles their tires to move a rock half an inch to the right so their LST's has a sharp edge to grab, only to slip off and have to repeat.

Here's my one problem. If you allow a reposition, and there is a tight turn from one gate to another, and the person can't make the turn and opts to reposition, they can take the truck straight back and drive through that gate straight on, totally avoiding the turn, which creates the obstacle in the first place. Or if you get stuck, and you shift your truck back a little and to the left 10 inches where its smooth sailing, but somewhere your truck could never have gotten to driving on its own. People abusing the rule is my main concern. Like you said, competitions are about driving, not seeing who can manipulate the rules best.

I like Griz's modified rules (and I know how much it sucks to point out on the first obstacle *cough brick wall at raffle cough*) but he said he was for reverse points when someone reverses beyond their wheelbase, but in the rules he said no matter what... a little confused there.

[kevinlongisland]

i agree totaly with griz about people coming from out of town and taking that into consideration. the rules i posted only allow for a point out on each gate, there is no dnf for the entire stage.

about reverses. if you make them one point, compared to ten for other penalties, people will take 1 point. one point is not a big deal compared to the other points. and having the stage timed keeps people moving. they can wait all they want, they'll just get a time violation. also, with the point structure we have, newbies quickly point out on obstacles and get placed past it. but, we have found the point structure we use allows for plenty of "point space" for advanced drivers to complete difficult obstacles. of coarse, drivers always have the option to reposition past the gate and get 40 points for that gate.

i don't know, i just really like the way UROC has set up the rules. we have run those rules a bunch of times and i think they work really really well.

[Grizzly4x4]

Originally Posted by BENDER

I may have misunderstood it, but the 3rd paragraph down in this quote.

That is similar to what the UTRCRC rules are like as well. Pointing out means you couldn't get to the next gate so you move your rig to that gate. This is something that really helps with the flow of the competition.

Originally Posted by Plays_with_Toys

but he said he was for reverse points when someone reverses beyond their wheelbase, but in the rules he said no matter what... a little confused there.

Both of the things you guys talk about are things that I can go either way on and be happy.

Pinchy, Kaetwo, Dirk, Ace, and myself, have spent a whole summer werking on the UTRCRC rules and how they should govern the competition. Kevin's rules are good too and very similar. The RCC rules are drasticly different and very tough, but that is what Jason intended with them. I'm not saying that is bad, but that might be part of why people shy away from them.
I have spouted my thoughts on rules many, many, times and have been met wth much resistance on alot things. Forgive me if I am not passionate about it right now.

[kevinlongisland]

i have a great idea and i don't know why i didn't think of this earlier. let the people decide.

let's ask the different clubs that hold comps to use the different set of rules that have been proposed at seperate comps, and whatever they decide, goes. then there's no discusion and the set of rules that people in general prefer is what gets decided on. if anyone else has been using a different set of rules, we can ask them to submit them. it may take a couple months, but i think thats the best way.

[jason]

This is ROCK CRAWLING, it is supposed to be slow and technical, that is the point of it, the more technical the better.

About driving across the state, then getting to a course and pointing out right away, that happens. It even happens in the 1:1 world, sometimes a guy will drive all the way out here from the east coast, get on his first obstical and completely break his rig, and just turn around and go home. That is competition, and sometimes things like that happen.

In baseball if the Yankees, flys all the way out to california to play the Angles, and the first guy up to bat for the yankees, swings and strikes out, do they give him another chance?

In NASCAR, if Jeff Gordan hauls his whole team out to a far away track then spins out on the first lap, and hit the wall detroying his car, will they give him another chance?

In Football if the quarterbacks first pass thrown is an interception, will the not make that count and just let him redo the down?

To me, we aren't little girls, we shouldn't get "Redo's", or repositions. If you messed up and got yourself stuck, oh well, now you're gonna have to try much harder to make up those points on the next course.

[TwistedCreations]

Originally Posted by Grizzly4x4

Pointing out means you couldn't get to the next gate so you move your rig to that gate. This is something that really helps with the flow of the competition.

yeah i see that it helps to keep the flow of things going, but if your rig can't make it up something owell.That to me is not competition,well, maybe competition to see who can carry their rig more. if you can't make the obstacle, then you should time out for that section. maybe have time limits through the whole course?

what i mean is- say your at the starting gate and you have 6 boundry gates to go through and then your at the finish gate. maybe have it to where you have 2 minutes to get to each boundry gate( time depends on course). maybe make it a 5 or 10 point penalty for not finishing that section in time.lets say you get through the 1st, 2nd,and 3rd gate fine, but there is a waterfall you just can't get up. the boundry marker is at the top of the waterfall. your 2mins run out for that section, so you take a 5-10 point penalty and place your rig at the top of the waterfall where the 4th boundry gate is. then keep going again.

maybe make it 5 points because you have 6 boundry gates and a finish gate. so there are 7 gates to go through. if you time out through all of them that's 35 points and in that process, you more than likely reversed or rolled over also. so you would be at your max points by the finish. That would keep things going, but yet people still would be able to compete and not max out points in the first 5 mins they are there..

anyway, just another idea

but now that i just re-read my post, i am contridicting myself just overlook me, im sicker than a dog and all drugged up

[TwistedCreations]

Originally Posted by jason

This is ROCK CRAWLING, it is supposed to be slow and technical, that is the point of it, the more technical the better.

About driving across the state, then getting to a course and pointing out right away, that happens. It even happens in the 1:1 world, sometimes a guy will drive all the way out here from the east coast, get on his first obstical and completely break his rig, and just turn around and go home. That is competition, and sometimes things like that happen.

In baseball if the Yankees, flys all the way out to california to play the Angles, and the first guy up to bat for the yankees, swings and strikes out, do they give him another chance?

In NASCAR, if Jeff Gordan hauls his whole team out to a far away track then spins out on the first lap, and hit the wall detroying his car, will they give him another chance?

In Football if the quarterbacks first pass thrown is an interception, will the not make that count and just let him redo the down?

To me, we aren't little girls, we shouldn't get "Redo's", or repositions. If you messed up and got yourself stuck, oh well, now you're gonna have to try much harder to make up those points on the next course.

i see your point, but we are not 1:1 rigs and we are all not pros. this sport/hobby is not that big yet. having those strict of rules will keep the newbies from even comming out to compete and without new faces, there will be no comps eventually

[Grizzly4x4]

Originally Posted by jason

This is ROCK CRAWLING, it is supposed to be slow and technical, that is the point of it, the more technical the better.

I disagree, most people wouldnt watch an hours worth of trail ride video that me and my friends made if I gave it to them, but they will pay $20 for TwistedDV's video of comp footage. Why? Action; people like rollovers, crashes, and carnage.

Originally Posted by jason

About driving across the state, then getting to a course and pointing out right away, that happens. It even happens in the 1:1 world, sometimes a guy will drive all the way out here from the east coast, get on his first obstical and completely break his rig, and just turn around and go home. That is competition, and sometimes things like that happen.

1:1 guys are competing for prizes, prize money, and sponsorships. We are not.

I'm not saying I don't like your rules, just that they are tough. You originally axed why people weren't using the rcc rules and I was just suggesting why that might be. Like i said, this discussion has gone on before. If people ask for my input I will give it but I understand that you decided on the rules for a reason and I respect that.

[DirkDigler]

"1:1 guys are competing for prizes, prize money, and sponsorships. We are not."

Hey....speak for yourself Griz! At the last Red Rocks event we had, I donated $100 to the guy that came in last place. I won!

[Grizzly4x4]

Originally Posted by WannaBeDigler

"1:1 guys are competing for prizes, prize money, and sponsorships. We are not."

Hey....speak for yourself Griz! At the last Red Rocks event we had, I donated $100 to the guy that came in last place. I won!

Imagine that.
Next time let me know so I can tank it too.

[badger]

Originally Posted by Grizzly4x4

Imagine that.
Next time let me know so I can tank it too.

I have heard that people have died trying to tank a comp like Dirk has.

[Grizzly4x4]

Originally Posted by badger

I have heard that people have died trying to tank a comp like Dirk has.

I heard that too.

[Plays_with_Toys]

Damn.... Last time I checked, I rock crawled and did RC for the fun of it. If it weren't fun, I would stop (just like I stopped on road cars and racing my xxx-t). If someone is willing to drive 8 hours to a comp, they are either a)very hardcore and competition savvy or b) wanting to go to a get together where lots of people, many they haven't met yet, are going to be having fun in the same way that person wants to. I want to make it out to more comps simply because no one around me crawls. They are all nitro people, so comps are where I can join in with other enthusiasts. I've broken, and it sucks, but being in good company and having it in good fun makes it easier to stick around with a broken rig.

As was said, we're not competing for anything but bragging rights. Lets keep eachother constantly chasing one another for the next leg up, but I think more importantly, keep it fun and enjoyable.