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Old 06-23-2016, 06:23 AM   #41
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Default Re: RC Rock Crawling Championship 2016 - Judges

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Originally Posted by crawlinghulls View Post
I was at that comp and must admit that while it ran smoothly it was not judged consistently.


I would agree with a wrist band or token for judges that are selected by the organizer, use the wristband/token to jump ahead in line to run courses
There is NO perfect answer to this question. I have stood on course judging all day, I have tried teams; However the format was a great success, there will always be inconsistencies and differences of opinion. Welcome to the human race. Two Hours of judging went by quickly and I did not feel rushed to complete the courses and did not have to cut lines to get it done. This will be the format I will be using for The Northeast National Championship.

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Old 06-23-2016, 07:30 AM   #42
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Default Re: RC Rock Crawling Championship 2016 - Judges

I am a stickler on judging. I think even having 2 judges just a single course all day is not consistent enough. I think there should only be 1 judge. I know there are certain calls that I make that would be different than another. There are other things to consider too like a gate getting moved and put back in the right spot, point value for bonus gates, boundary lines and just basic judgement calls from one guy to another. I know I am super strict on somethings and probably really lenient vs other people. Its just not fair to be called on something that everybody isnt called on and vice versa.

If I ever have to host a comp that is team judging or not judged by 1/2 people per course, it will be the last comp I host.
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Old 06-23-2016, 07:41 AM   #43
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Default Re: RC Rock Crawling Championship 2016 - Judges

Here is the bottom line...

We are still stuck in a situation where a handful of guys are pulling more weight then they should while others kick back and try to blend in the background and not help. This drives me wild! We all see you and we all know who you are! Its not right that a select few pull all this weight! This needs to change and it needs to change now!

If youre willing to judge and help for free, I appreciate it but I would actually rather you not do it. Crazy? Yeah.

What I would like is I would like people to put up an honest value on what their time and efforts are worth. Why do this? Because if you give me an honest number of what your day is worth, hopefully we can avoid getting burned out and feeling taken advantage of. I know I get stuck in the middle of feeling taken advantage of and wanting to help. If everybody would just pitch in their fair share we wouldn't have to deal with this but I guess its too much to ask in this generation to pull your own weight? I will stop before I go too far, I digress...

So, what I really need is I need EVERYBODY to put up a value on their day. I am not asking just for volunteers to judge, I am asking EVERYBODY who is attending the comp to put up a value. Then, we can take the lowest bidders. If youre not willing to judge at any cost, then you will be at the mercy of those who charge whatever they find reasonable, and I couldn't think anything would be more fair.

I would love to turn judging into a fight for who gets it rather than a struggle to get people to sign up.

So seriously, please give me a number. Lets get effing crazy and start the bidding off at $1000 for the day! Who wants $1000? Post up!

Is $1000 too much? Yeah, I think so but hopefully it will get people moving to sign up. Is it possible to pay 16 judges $1000 per day? Yeah, it works out to about $320 per driver, which is too much IMO but it is what it is. We need judges to fight for their job!

Remember, if the cost of the comp is $320 per driver, YOU are the reason the cost is that high because YOU could have signed up and gone to the comp for free plus pocketed $1000! YOU need to pay for all of US who are carrying YOUR weight!

How many people will read all of that? LOL.
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Old 06-23-2016, 07:44 AM   #44
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Default Re: RC Rock Crawling Championship 2016 - Judges

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Originally Posted by VMGontheRocks View Post
I'd come and judge just to watch the top guys drive!
I am going to post up on some FB groups that are local to the area. If they know the rules but dont enjoy comp crawling, why not come out and judge for the day and make $200 - $1000?

Just for fun, $1000 for the day would work out to be $125 an hour!
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Old 06-23-2016, 07:58 AM   #45
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Default Re: RC Rock Crawling Championship 2016 - Judges

Agreed..... it tough being stuck between helping and being taken for advantage. I say i want _____ amount for judging i get called greedy. I volunteer to do it for free with a crew and half the crew shows, so they can perofrm "better" than me.... I really enjoy driving toy trucks, i like hanging out with people who also drive toy trucks, so i dont want it to go away. It sure shows a lack of sustainability if weve gone now almost 3 full pages and still only two have posted up that they are willing to judge for money..... like Eric states above this thread right here is going to determine what it costs to enter this comp and are we as a community really going to price ourselves right out of being a resonablly priced and well attended comp?
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Old 06-23-2016, 08:06 AM   #46
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Default Re: RC Rock Crawling Championship 2016 - Judges

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I say i want _____ amount for judging i get called greedy.
Nobody can call you greedy. Why? Because anybody can underbid you and get the job. They only people that will get paid are the lowest bidders. If you judge at the price you want, then you were one of the best bidders and the price is what the price is. If somebody wants $10k for the day its only greedy if every other single person is willing to do it for less and then who really cares?

This is the way the whole world works and the price of most everything we pay for. The reason Mc d's pays what they do is because people are willing to do it at that price. The reason people get paid a lot of money to clean out porta potties is because its a sick job and nobody will do it for $8/hr. The market figures out their price and thats what we need to do with judges... figure out what it costs to pay them.
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Old 06-23-2016, 08:39 AM   #47
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Default Re: RC Rock Crawling Championship 2016 - Judges

Everyone should pull their own weight to make any event a success, I don't think that can be argued. I personally hate judging all day and trying to get my courses in also. I have done it too many times to count. I really don't care how much you pay. Standing on course all day and rushing to drive takes away from my enjoyment of an event, and in reality if it is not fun what is the point really? Each event should be up to the organizer how it is run. I like to see results. So when anyone pays each judge lets say $100 to be reasonable or crazy money please report back on how it went. I think different areas have different mind sets when it comes to judging. We are all looking for what works best for us. What works well on the east coast might not work out west. In my mind throwing money at an issue only creates more issues and leads to more entitled behavior. Not to mention driving up the cost unnecessarily. Having drivers participate and have pride and personal responsibility in what they do is much more valuable in the long run.

This by no means meant to be argument just a part of a continued discussion.
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Old 06-23-2016, 09:07 AM   #48
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Default Re: RC Rock Crawling Championship 2016 - Judges

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Nobody can call you greedy.
No but it can and has been implied that anyone who takes $ for judging is.....

If a driver already had an invite to Nationals up until 2013 (for sure) and they judged Fishmaxx would pay them. I don't know/can't remember how much, pretty sure it was like $50 -100.
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Old 06-23-2016, 11:09 AM   #49
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Default Re: RC Rock Crawling Championship 2016 - Judges

I'll judge for free. There is no good answer or solution, I've been on both sides.

I've put tons of time into an event to make $0 , I don't think that's right.

I've judged events that had BIG entry fees and I know the organizer made out, and felt bitter about that.

I've tried team format and while it made it easier on me at the beginning it made it harder at the end when it came to scoring and consistencies/issues.

I would love to put cash into judges pockets and have tried that, It's still tough to balance out entry fees and judges compensation.

I would love to have a cash prize for top drivers, but it would drive up entry fees.

There are many things to consider other than cost of judges and I think that setting the standard too low on entry fees and making it the norm to have a profit free comp might work for a while but organizers will get burned out after a if there is no incentive.

I say charge more to drive and not judge ($50 entry and $50 per class this is the big show.), make it known that organizers will be getting a cut, and everyone can just suck it up like they have been doing since the beginning.

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Old 06-23-2016, 11:55 AM   #50
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Default Re: RC Rock Crawling Championship 2016 - Judges

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Originally Posted by Erik D_lux View Post
This is the way the whole world works and the price of most everything we pay for. The reason Mc d's pays what they do is because people are willing to do it at that price. The reason people get paid a lot of money to clean out porta potties is because its a sick job and nobody will do it for $8/hr. The market figures out their price and thats what we need to do with judges... figure out what it costs to pay them.

This is the way the world works because people get greedy and think they are above the job. Someone will clean out the shitter for 8$ an hour if it ment paying their bills or living on the street. The problem is the world doesn't put enough people in that position and they coddle them.

How many people would jump up to help if the comp was cancelled because the organizers couldn't get judges.

I understand the whole money motivates people but if a driver has to pay more entry fee's because judges are being paid it tends to hurt the product being sold. And money doesn't guarantee quality judging.

Why doesn't anyone just refund event fees if someone judges and holds their end of the deal? Whats wrong with rewarding them that way? Make judges sign score sheets and count them .... you get one judge that says 'I judged' and he signs one slip then im sorry but that's not pulling your weight and no refund.
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Old 06-23-2016, 12:04 PM   #51
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Default Re: RC Rock Crawling Championship 2016 - Judges

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I'll judge for free. There is no good answer or solution, I've been on both sides.

I've put tons of time into an event to make $0 , I don't think that's right.

I've judged events that had BIG entry fees and I know the organizer made out, and felt bitter about that.

I've tried team format and while it made it easier on me at the beginning it made it harder at the end when it came to scoring and consistencies/issues.

I would love to put cash into judges pockets and have tried that, It's still tough to balance out entry fees and judges compensation.

I would love to have a cash prize for top drivers, but it would drive up entry fees.

There are many things to consider other than cost of judges and I think that setting the standard too low on entry fees and making it the norm to have a profit free comp might work for a while but organizers will get burned out after a if there is no incentive.

I say charge more to drive and not judge ($50 entry and $50 per class this is the big show.), make it known that organizers will be getting a cut, and everyone can just suck it up like they have been doing since the beginning.
I totally disagree. This is our opportunity to change the status quo. The only money that drivers should be charged is to cover the costs of running and providing the best comp possible. If Erik, Jake, and Joel think that solid judging should be compensated as part of the running costs, then that's what they decide. They want this to stay successful and correct any mistakes they've sen in the past.

With the exception of the chore it has become to get people to judge these events. I like where we are as a community. I think we have seriously quality people who attend and work at these events and at local comps too. Could we stand to see some growth? Yes. I think this can be a huge turning point for all of us. We could be laying a foundation that will last longer than all of our interests or energies allow. That would be amazing to see, and would draw a lot of manufacture attention back to what we are doing, but our product has to be quality. More important than future manufacture support.... Putting on a good comp. (Whatever that means to all of us)

I remember how pissed off you were at the end of 2.2pro day last year. A lot of it was justified. You had one of if not the hardest course of the day, it was hot as hell, and you were by yourself all day, you ran nearly everyone except for the all the judges and a few stragglers through that course...... you were cursing everything that day..... everything. You were super pissed about those who flaked, on you and us as judges. Plus you paid to play.......

Now re-imagine yourself back at the end of that day, tired wore out, sweaty, smelling like a piece of who know what (honestly I don't know what you smell like, hahaha), and then you're given a huge thanks at the ending drivers meeting for your work and handed $150 bucks.... does that change your mind at all about what what is trying to be done here?..... It sure sounds great to me.....

I appreciate the effort you've put in to bring back and keep the AZ shootout running. I hope it continues and stays successful.
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Old 06-23-2016, 12:51 PM   #52
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Default Re: RC Rock Crawling Championship 2016 - Judges

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Anyways, just thought it was worth throwing it out there.
Driver payout, sounds way better then judge's payout..
We all drive, we all judge..
My feeling on driver payouts..... it brings out the worst in everyone. I've seen very little good come out of a money comp. Rivalries, hard feelings, lost sponsors, horrible rumors, trashed reputations, etc. All of this has occurred locally because of a money comp.

The Monster showdown may have been an exception to the rule, but I doubt it..... haven't heard any rumors yet, but that's probably because the comp happened back east....

I digress, when all it's about is bragging rights and dust collectors (trophies) things are much better.... people have little to no incentive to cheat, or be a poor sport.

If a sponsor decided to award the winner with a small cash prize fine.... but when people put their own hard earned money or its a large sum like $1000 on the line , it brings out dark things in them..... I don't think need any darkness is what we are doing here.
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Old 06-23-2016, 01:38 PM   #53
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Default Re: RC Rock Crawling Championship 2016 - Judges

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How many people would jump up to help if the comp was cancelled because the organizers couldn't get judges.

I understand the whole money motivates people but if a driver has to pay more entry fee's because judges are being paid it tends to hurt the product being sold. And money doesn't guarantee quality judging.
True. Money doesn't guarantee quality judging.

Your first point.... based on forum volunteers at first 2015 worlds was going to be 4 courses..... people finally "stepped up" so we decided 6 courses then a final......

2nd point.... the fees paid by drivers are only going to be high if people dont step up to volunteer. Thats why I approached this conversation about judges being paid from a driver perspective first. What do I think i reasonable to pay someone for 6-8 minutes of their time, walking on rocks, and marking on a score sheet. Thats why I said $4-5.... in my mind thats completely reasonable and at the end of the day if we run 8 courses. that equals $32-40.... which is cheaper than 90% of the major comps which have been held.
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Old 06-23-2016, 02:48 PM   #54
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Default Re: RC Rock Crawling Championship 2016 - Judges

How is the schedule going to be laid out?
Is it going to be 8 courses open for 8hrs?
Or are you guys going to rock it out, 4 courses in the morning hours and 4 courses in the afternoon hours?

If it's split, 4 and 4.. could there be a 3 judge minimum, with a 2hr judging time period?

Like judge A and B start the day.. 1 hour in, judge C shows up and B stays.. 3hrs in, A comes back and judge B is done for the day. Judge's A and C finish the morning out.. this is figuring a 4 hour course open time..

It breaks things up, there is consistency, and you have time to chat and drive..
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Old 06-23-2016, 03:23 PM   #55
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I'm not sure exactly how we could structure it. a group rotation would keep the courses full and not overly crowded. I'm still think ing on a way to do it logistically that everyone get a chance to run with their preferred groups as least part of the day..... no man left behind. But it'll involve some kind of rotation. one of the ideas I have would require a diagram
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Old 06-23-2016, 07:35 PM   #56
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Short straw contest. You pull a shorty ya judge. Laughter....I've judged alot of events in the past with parker and can say it's hard to commit cause ya know it's gonna be rough. Nothing worse than volunteering to judge and either guys in line aren't ready, drivers feel they are better than you or nobody's there cause their watching a top driver on course. With judging comes a respect for the judge from the competitors. Judges deserve alot of respect. It's a position people aren't comfortable with cause they feel they might make the wrong call. Count me in dlux. 3 by post 55 isn't too bad. Hahaha. I'm not one to beat the top guys so might as well offer services so it feels like I helped them succeed.
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Old 06-24-2016, 12:10 AM   #57
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The standard for which I have set the comps I host is the "2013 West Coast Shootout". I have NEVER met that mark not even close.

It seemed at this comp there were not only enough judges to help, there was a massive coordination that happened between many many people. There were nice driver packets, It was the first comp I had seen that had scorecards that you could take home, there was coffee and donuts in the morning, they fed us lunch , there were awesome giveaways and sponsors.
It had a feel of a serious comp.



I judged 2.2s and 2.2p just so I could get a free entry , it was worth it as the entry fees were high, as costs to put on an event of this caliber are high.
I don't think we should lower that standard because we are "lacking" drivers , and I feel that if we/you/whoever don't try to maintain a certain WOW factor then the appeal is sort of lost.

I don't know the good answers but I like that we are all so concerned and are exploring options. If you have been to my events you know I have tried different things every year, some things work , some I wished never happened.

YEP I was pissed at worlds. thanks to everyone who put up with my outrage. (I think curt heard more than most)
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Old 06-24-2016, 12:34 AM   #58
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Default Re: RC Rock Crawling Championship 2016 - Judges

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$32-40.... which is cheaper than 90% of the major comps which have been held.
Per class ?
I will tell you right now if you pay judges the full entry fee there will be no money left to put a comp on .

-parks & rec $250-$1000+
-trophies: Time and effort or $200+
-tshirts $500+
-gas $50
-food/water $100

The best I have been able to do is ask a sponsor to match my judges donation with a gift card. I put aside $25 for judges that judged ALL DAY, and it was matched I feel that every judge that received one would have done it with or without an incentive other than free entry and a handshake.
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Old 06-24-2016, 12:52 AM   #59
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If thats whatbit needed to be per class thats fine. Im not sure how these guys are paying for the other costa associated with putting on the comp. When i was looking into BLM land in Nevada. It was only going to cost $5 per driver per day to pay for the needed permit.... easy to share that cost..... those other questions could be answered by the guys putting it on. Jake, Joel, Erik.
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Old 06-24-2016, 08:05 AM   #60
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Default Re: RC Rock Crawling Championship 2016 - Judges

Dan and KJ, thanks for offering for free. Its not going to happen though. Same old guys stepping up to offer and help.

If the people that are on the list now end up judging, I will make sure they are paid. I am thinking a minimum of $200 for the day? Again, I want people to WANT to judge. I want to know what that number is.

Why are people not posting up? Just not enough eyes on this thread yet? Its beyond me to think that there is a person in the world that would not judge for $1k per day.

Maybe I just need to take the sign up sheet in the other thread and post up the names? I would like to see a dollar figure by every single person who plans to come.
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