RC Rock Crawling Championship 2016 - Judges

[mammoth]

I have attended worlds in RI and Logandale also AZ shootout. Now I have judged and helped out at every event I have been to and have no issue doing so. Is it work to walk those courses several times a day... It sure is but for the good or the hobby I'll do it with or with out compensation and a smile on my face.

To put a dollar value to what judging would be worth is a tough one. The figures pointed out above seem reasonable and a good deal for an entrance fee. For me the biggest cost is the travel so getting help offsetting that would be a big advantage to being able to attend these events. One of the reasons I missed BOTW...

With that being said I will Judge and enjoy doing so but I would like one of the 3 days off just to enjoy it and socialize with people I only see once or twice a year as that's part of what makes these so much fun! Whatever the agreed number is I'm fine with.

[KingGee]

Offering cash or even top notch vendor products to assist judging is a nice attractant. It could hopefully attract people who normally wouldn't think about it step up. Hopefully others who haven't judged chime in and they dont feel they are being gouged for more money since its being shown how its divided out. I personally would enjoy handing each judge my $ bills to run their course. Now that this is out there i will take my thoughts on helping off the table. Dont want to be that guy stepping up for just for the cash. Hahaha. If I can get my back to cooperate by than I would have no issues helping judge. If the back wont cooperate I can offer my assistance in score keeper. No cash really necessary.

[Curcal]

Thank you both for your input. Let it be abundantly clear These fees per course will determine entry fee for the comp, not a cost in addition to the event. This is the whole concept behind the organization of the RC Rock Crawling Championship. I don't even have to assume that is the motivation for this group, I know it is. That said there maybe some comfort a solace to know where all the funds from paid fees are going. I certainly know, I have wondered where my fees from previous comps have gone.

All I know is that I've seen plenty shy away from doing work because they feel like it's going to affect their driving and performance soo much they feel disadvantaged or that its just not worth it. Which leaves it to guys like me, KJ, Dlux, Mammoth, Sumquak, KrawlerKev, and a few others who I have seen step up at nearly every single event I've been to.
The load of the many is carried by the few..... last year was pitiful... We had somewhere between 12-15 volunteer to judge for pro but only 6 manned up and followed through. Which made the day two times longer than it should have been.
This is the reason I have been so vocal in this thread.... we have a volunteer problem... and no one knows exactly what measures will need to be taken to fix it. I'm still surprised there aren't more people in here willing to say.... "Hey, even on my best day I can't beat Jrock, Jake Wright, Dlux, or Skaldidog (yes there are guys missing fron this list).... I should help out watch them drive while I judge and learn something (now it's learn and get paid)." I've seen every single one of them pick up a clip board and judge at several events.

[Curcal]

Sorry rant over.... for now.... I should go get some lunch I think I'm a little cranky

[KingGee]

Originally Posted by Curcal

Sorry rant over.... for now.... I should go get some lunch I think I'm a little cranky

3pm lunch...ouch. I think it's a good idea all around. Much easier to help when the host is all about the event and tries to make a difference too. Not one person should feel there too good or not good enough to help. Judging or not everyone's day for a win will come.

[stubs179]

Originally Posted by JohnRobHolmes

I was also thinking that it would be good to track who scores who, or at least how many who's.



I would also like to point out that the rules do allow self scoring in groups with secret marshalls in groups and walking around. Play it like golf with everybody watching. If there is a shootout, judges can be there.

I strongly disagree with this. I would not travel to a national level event that was judged like that. Most people are honest but there are plenty that are not and it just wouldn't be fair. It works great for fun comps but thats it.

Originally Posted by Curcal

Thank you both for your input. Let it be abundantly clear These fees per course will determine entry fee for the comp, not a cost in addition to the event. This is the whole concept behind the organization of the RC Rock Crawling Championship. I don't even have to assume that is the motivation for this group, I know it is. That said there maybe some comfort a solace to know where all the funds from paid fees are going. I certainly know, I have wondered where my fees from previous comps have gone.

All I know is that I've seen plenty shy away from doing work because they feel like it's going to affect their driving and performance soo much they feel disadvantaged or that its just not worth it. Which leaves it to guys like me, KJ, Dlux, Mammoth, Sumquak, KrawlerKev, and a few others who I have seen step up at nearly every single event I've been to.
The load of the many is carried by the few..... last year was pitiful... We had somewhere between 12-15 volunteer to judge for pro but only 6 manned up and followed through. Which made the day two times longer than it should have been.
This is the reason I have been so vocal in this thread.... we have a volunteer problem... and no one knows exactly what measures will need to be taken to fix it. I'm still surprised there aren't more people in here willing to say.... "Hey, even on my best day I can't beat Jrock, Jake Wright, Dlux, or Skaldidog (yes there are guys missing fron this list).... I should help out watch them drive while I judge and learn something (now it's learn and get paid)." I've seen every single one of them pick up a clip board and judge at several events.

I agree. I am a slacker when it comes to juding because i love walking around and talking to everyone. The first BoTW was is the only national level comp i've judged but i had a great time.

I think paying at each course is a bad idea. Most of us will be paying full price and then there will be all the guys getting the buddy deal and getting an almost free comp. I don't care how much the comp costs or how much the judges get paid, as long as they are there ill be happy. $200 for the day is pretty good considering everything you miss out on when you are judging.

[VMGontheRocks]

I'd come and judge just to watch the top guys drive!

But I'm an idiot and scheduled a big scale event for our local club on the same weekend.

I really like the idea of a portion of the entrance money going to the judges and also seeing where the entrance money went.

[Curcal]

Originally Posted by stubs179

I agree. I am a slacker when it comes to juding because i love walking around and talking to everyone. The first BoTW was is the only national level comp i've judged but i had a great time.

I think paying at each course is a bad idea. Most of us will be paying full price and then there will be all the guys getting the buddy deal and getting an almost free comp. I don't care how much the comp costs or how much the judges get paid, as long as they are there ill be happy. $200 for the day is pretty good considering everything you miss out on when you are judging.

The advantage we have right now is that the cost for the comp is undetermined, so cost per course is I think the best way to determine that.
I agree no cash should exchange hands right at the course.... extra tip for a lenient judge... *sniff *sniff shady comp.... We're not there thank heavens, but still the potential.

I think $200 is too much money if we only have 50 drivers. Because If i share judging a course with another person I only judge 23-28 of those drivers (hopefully my course partner will pull his weight too, but if not my score sheets will say I did more work and will make more $$) But if somehow our attendance is in the 100's then $200+ would be a fair haul for the work.

Originally Posted by VMGontheRocks

I'd come and judge just to watch the top guys drive!

But I'm an idiot and scheduled a big scale event for our local club on the same weekend.

I really like the idea of a portion of the entrance money going to the judges and also seeing where the entrance money went.

Step 1: Move your Scale Event a week up or a week back.... no ones gonna care at this point. hahaha, plus most are local any way you said it yourself.

2nd: the Majority if not all fees collected will go to pay for judges.

[Harvo]

Not sure if you care to hear from me since I can't make it... but I think Erik's idea is great. I've been to 4 or 5 Nats, a bunch of ECCs, a few Battlegrounds, and a couple of indoor qualifiers in Ohio. One thing I always noticed (that was touched on above) was that the judges rarely ended up with good scores (except for maybe on their course).

Non judges watch over a dozen people drive a course before it's their turn. They have time to talk about it, evaluate it, walk it.... then they move on to the next after a sandwich and Pepsi and do it again.

Judges see one course over and over. They rush to get each course done, and I've seen it done several ways.
- Judges all run together at the end
-Judges all run together first
-Judges get to leave their course and get in front of the line to run another.

None of those ways really helped the judges.

So I think they should be compensated as suggested, but I would also suggest 3 judges per course or 3 extra judges over all the courses... or some way to give the judges a non-stressful, fair amount of time, to get in line for a course in any position the wanted, so that they could see what they needed and have fun too.

Erik's efforts to treat judges right have exceeded those of any organizer I recall during the past 5 years or so.

[JohnRobHolmes]

Originally Posted by stubs179

I strongly disagree with this. I would not travel to a national level event that was judged like that. Most people are honest but there are plenty that are not and it just wouldn't be fair. It works great for fun comps but thats it.

Ive attended multiple disc golf events last year and played on a professional card where big money is on the table. A hobby with far thicker rulebook and 1000 fold more popularity seems to have no problem self regulating . They already went through the exact same problem decades ago with judging events. We have seen plenty of cheaters with one on one judging in crawling anyway. It doesn't prevent it.


Your hands arent tied to the method of high labor judging. It isn't mandatory, and it is the single worst part of organizing and attending. Spread the load to everyone, or take that 8 hour shift in the sun. I judged enough years at nats to know how difficult the task is, and how much more enjoyable an event would be if NOBODY had to judge all day.

[winnerone23]

What if... judging wasn't paid for?
What if Everybody judged at some point?
"Judging isn't reliable, if the same 2 ppl don't judge a course(or 2), all day"..
Judging isn't reliable If the same ppl judge all day!
They are sick of judging, tired, thinking about driving, hot, hungry, want to talk, etc, etc, etc....
I've been to a couple comps.. lol..
The craziest, smoothest, comp, was judged hourly! By ppl that picked there time slots..

I judged for 2 hours, all day.. maybe a dozen and a half or so drivers..
Money went to the drivers, not the judge's.. or make the comp cheaper..

Judge's where happy, drivers where happy, you ate when you wanted, drove when you wanted, talked when you wanted..
No one's driving suffered from judging..
No pulling teeth, for judge's..

Those who will be there, "are the best of the best".. we can all judge a fair course, I would hope.

[sumquak]

my thinking on the dollar number is this,

i can judge 7-8 drivers/hr. at $4.00/driver thats $30.00/hr roughly. if i have to judge someones "billy goat course" that starts at the bottom and finishes at the top then back to the bottom for the next driver, that is way too much work and bad course design. i would expect compensation for that work.

just by putting the start and the finish close to each other makes for shorter time between drivers and less walking by the judge.

as a driver, $32.00 for 8 courses seems like a good deal. some funds for the venue and a t-shirt should still keep it affordable.

as i posted, i will judge for free on my own "judge friendly" course with no issues. in the BYBRCC series events if you build it, you judge it and i judge every month.

[stubs179]

Originally Posted by JohnRobHolmes

Ive attended multiple disc golf events last year and played on a professional card where big money is on the table. A hobby with far thicker rulebook and 1000 fold more popularity seems to have no problem self regulating . They already went through the exact same problem decades ago with judging events. We have seen plenty of cheaters with one on one judging in crawling anyway. It doesn't prevent it.


Your hands arent tied to the method of high labor judging. It isn't mandatory, and it is the single worst part of organizing and attending. Spread the load to everyone, or take that 8 hour shift in the sun. I judged enough years at nats to know how difficult the task is, and how much more enjoyable an event would be if NOBODY had to judge all day.

I don't know about disk golf but i have seen plenty of Scaler comps (never competed in any) and small local comps that were judged like that and a lot gets over looked. Like i said, its fine for local comps but for a national level event its not regulated enough. To much will get overlooked, a couple missed reverse here, a gate there. When 1st and 2nd can be a 1 point differance? I wouldn't drive 8 hours to drive at a comp judged like that.

[mfawv]

how about, as a sponcer, i set and judge said course?

[VMGontheRocks]

Originally Posted by Curcal

The advantage we have right now is that the cost for the comp is undetermined, so cost per course is I think the best way to determine that.
I agree no cash should exchange hands right at the course.... extra tip for a lenient judge... *sniff *sniff shady comp.... We're not there thank heavens, but still the potential.

I think $200 is too much money if we only have 50 drivers. Because If i share judging a course with another person I only judge 23-28 of those drivers (hopefully my course partner will pull his weight too, but if not my score sheets will say I did more work and will make more $$) But if somehow our attendance is in the 100's then $200+ would be a fair haul for the work.




Step 1: Move your Scale Event a week up or a week back.... no ones gonna care at this point. hahaha, plus most are local any way you said it yourself.

2nd: the Majority if not all fees collected will go to pay for judges.

Haha, we moved it already due to a wedding I have to go to. There just isn't another day to do it. Yeah it's this west vs east deal. The west needs me lol
I know Dan would be all for me skipping or moving it and going to this instead.

That's awesome to hear!

[KingGee]

This is a great discussion and has been needed for many years. Good work erik. Nice to hear most that have judged speak their minds. It's also nice to see the one who puts on a event put forth the effort to make it as good as it can be and not step aside and let others do it for him. This is shaping up to be a great well planned event.

[Harvo]

Originally Posted by winnerone23

What if... judging wasn't paid for?
What if Everybody judged at some point?
"Judging isn't reliable, if the same 2 ppl don't judge a course(or 2), all day"..
Judging isn't reliable If the same ppl judge all day!
They are sick of judging, tired, thinking about driving, hot, hungry, want to talk, etc, etc, etc....
I've been to a couple comps.. lol..
The craziest, smoothest, comp, was judged hourly! By ppl that picked there time slots..

I judged for 2 hours, all day.. maybe a dozen and a half or so drivers..
Money went to the drivers, not the judge's.. or make the comp cheaper..

Judge's where happy, drivers where happy, you ate when you wanted, drove when you wanted, talked when you wanted..
No one's driving suffered from judging..
No pulling teeth, for judge's..

Those who will be there, "are the best of the best".. we can all judge a fair course, I would hope.

You'd think... but when a course doesn't have any judges present and people who shouldn't have the clipboard pick it up to score someone ... or someone allows an after course bonus that was supposed to be an in course and half the group is scored wrong, then it becomes a nightmare. I know some judges that passed the tests back in the day that couldn't add the penalties correctly. I think for bigger comps where titles or even money is on the line, there needs to be consistency.

Going the unpaid honor route... I could see wristbands given to everyone that registered, who is deemed qualified to judge by the promoter. Then any of those people are allowed to judge at any course at any time throughout the day. They would be required to sign off on each line of the scoresheet they judged. To reciprocate, the promoter could give extra raffle tickets or a refunded discount (percentage based on the number of lines they judged) or a Tshirt.
I agree that many hands make light work, but you have to have some form of accountability.

[cboggs]

Having qualified set judges picked by the event organizer and maybe relief judges that can step in whenever needed for guys that may need a small break I think would be good. If I was stuck judging on one coarse for the entire day with no breaks like last years Worlds judges did I wouldn't be able to move or need pain killers for my back. My hats are off to you guys that did it. As said if there are judges that are trusted/picked that can judge anytime and go relieve others when they are done running and standing around doing nothing that would be a big help in my opinion. I also have no problem paying judges for their time if that's whats needed, screw the extra raffle tickets and lets give them cold hard cash!

[winnerone23]

Originally Posted by Harvo

You'd think... but when a course doesn't have any judges present and people who shouldn't have the clipboard pick it up to score someone ... or someone allows an after course bonus that was supposed to be an in course and half the group is scored wrong, then it becomes a nightmare. I know some judges that passed the tests back in the day that couldn't add the penalties correctly. I think for bigger comps where titles or even money is on the line, there needs to be consistency.

It's not a "Team judging"setup.. there are teams and those teams built and choose the hour they judged.

Not at any point during the day, did a course not have the 2 judge's present.
Courses where built with the lesser of the athletic judge's, in mind..
That way, the hour they were in course, didn't kill them.

Lots of money on the line(biggest in RC history), lots of judging help at all times.
It kept ppl moving and Wanting to be in line, not just walking around watching and learning courses.
It was 6 courses in 8hrs, I believe.. but the least hour was only a couple drivers that actually ran..

I feel, with the quality of the guys that show up and the enjoyment we all have for crawling, it isn't about snagging some shady points to try to win.. it's about seeing where we/I stand, against the best, at the end of the day..



Anyways, just thought it was worth throwing it out there.
Driver payout, sounds way better then judge's payout..
We all drive, we all judge..

[crawlinghulls]

Originally Posted by winnerone23

It's not a "Team judging"setup.. there are teams and those teams built and choose the hour they judged.

Not at any point during the day, did a course not have the 2 judge's present.
Courses where built with the lesser of the athletic judge's, in mind..
That way, the hour they were in course, didn't kill them.

Lots of money on the line(biggest in RC history), lots of judging help at all times.
It kept ppl moving and Wanting to be in line, not just walking around watching and learning courses.
It was 6 courses in 8hrs, I believe.. but the least hour was only a couple drivers that actually ran..

I feel, with the quality of the guys that show up and the enjoyment we all have for crawling, it isn't about snagging some shady points to try to win.. it's about seeing where we/I stand, against the best, at the end of the day..



Anyways, just thought it was worth throwing it out there.
Driver payout, sounds way better then judge's payout..
We all drive, we all judge..

I was at that comp and must admit that while it ran smoothly it was not judged consistently.


I would agree with a wrist band or token for judges that are selected by the organizer, use the wristband/token to jump ahead in line to run courses