RCCrawler Forums

cabsover78 · 06-29-2007, 01:00 PM

how should you time it?? I took apart my WKs stock 27T for my scaler and wound it to 40T with some like 25gauge wire (i think) I also bought to the radioshack stuff but didn't put it in. PUt when I wound it I might f lost count and the winds might be different. would that do anything? I hooked it up and would not start unless you helped it (gave it a spin) on no load. ANd it would get reallly hot and smoke a little, like after a run with the stock winds (27T). WHat the heck am I doing wrong??????!!!!!

JohnRobHolmes · 06-29-2007, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cabsover78

how should you time it?? I took apart my WKs stock 27T for my scaler and wound it to 40T with some like 25gauge wire (i think) I also bought to the radioshack stuff but didn't put it in. PUt when I wound it I might f lost count and the winds might be different. would that do anything? I hooked it up and would not start unless you helped it (gave it a spin) on no load. ANd it would get reallly hot and smoke a little, like after a run with the stock winds (27T). WHat the heck am I doing wrong??????!!!!!

What kind of wire did you use? was it ceramic coated?

cabsover78 · 06-29-2007, 01:48 PM

nope it is not ceramic coated just plain copper wire.

JohnRobHolmes · 06-29-2007, 01:51 PM

Use the proper motor or magnet wire. Rewind it with the radio shack stuff you bought, then see if it works.

Kamikaze · 06-29-2007, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tjarr001

yea i just bolted it back on. i didnt know timing was a big issue. how do i do that?

You want to set it a 0 timming, there should be some marks on the can that you can line up, if not just leave the endbell loose and run the motor forward and reverse, adjust the endbell till the rpms are the same both ways. If you just slaped it back on theres no telling were the timming is, to far out and the motor won't work good at all.

Cslax06 · 06-29-2007, 08:04 PM

Whats the ''timing'' do exactly? Ive heard people say they set it up for ''agressive'' timing. Im lost.

Kamikaze · 06-30-2007, 09:55 AM

The timming in a brushed motor is controled by the relation of the brushess to the magnets in the can. The magnetic feild created by the magnets in the can is constant so if you turn the endbell that holds the brushed you can change the point that the magnetic feild created by the amature changes polarity, this change in polarity provides the push needed to make the motor work. Its the same thing in a car, if you change the point in the engine cycle that the spark plug detonates you will change the charictaristics of the engine. In the case of a lathe motor you can advance the timming by rotating the endbell in relation to the can, resulting in the top rpm either incresing or decresing. The reason this sucks in rock crawling is our need for reverse is just as important as our need to go forward. So when you advange the timming one way you in turn retard the timming the opposit way resulting in a slower weaker motor in reverse.
Now if you just slaped the endbell back on without any relation to 0 degree or neutral timming you can be so far out that the motor simply wont spin, I believe 27deg advanced timming is the most common, I'm not sure how much a motor will take, but imagine what a car would do if the spark plugs detonated at the botom of the compression stroke instead of the top when the gas is compressed. Thats basicly what could happen if your timming was out say 90 degrees, your motor would not work properly.

Clear as mud?????

WheelChair · 06-30-2007, 10:05 AM

Sounds Understandable to me kamikazi

Also, when the timing is advanced say 10 degrees, the motor will make more RPM driving forward but the gained speed is taken off the reverse.

Timing a motor in my opinion is for racing.

Rock Crawling motors should be set to 0 degrees so you still have power in reverse. Or maybe just a few degrees for a little wheelspeed.

When the timing is advanced, it takes away from the low end torque of the motor, instead of power down low, it usees the power to make more RPM's.

If you advance forward, you retard reverse.

If you retard forward, you advance reverse.

Hope this helps...

Cslax06 · 06-30-2007, 01:14 PM

I understand completely now. Thanks guys.

bvitale · 07-11-2007, 10:39 AM

Well I gave this a shot and it worked. Still getting a lot of clod stall but I havent changed my pinions yet. Thanks for the great write up. This was extrememly easy. Just time consuming. Oh and make sure that you don't get distracted. I had to start over after about 45 winds. I went with 65T.

Later,
Brandon

Destroyer · 08-14-2007, 09:02 PM

I wound my own motor a while back, and it did okay, but got VERY hot and didn't work all that well. Took that motor apart today and found out that I did one less wind on one of the stators than the others.

Patience is not my strong suit.

Anyway, I tried again and I think I did better, but I'm still not satisfied with the performance of my motor. It has Cobalt magnets, which are awesome, but I am having trouble getting the motor to start smoothly because of them. It has a hard time deciding when to stop holding and start turning, which makes it pretty jumpy on startup. If JRH or anyone else has any suggestions on how to help this, I'd appreciate it! I would like to keep as much wheelspeed as possible, but still have a decent startup if at all possible.

BTW, I used Rat Shack green (medium) wire and a 50t single pattern this time, and it doesn't seem much better than a brand new stock motor on startup. Before rewinding, I found that using a GD-600 with the motor helped smooth startup considerably (motor needs to produce less torque to get the truck rolling), which led me to believe that a higher wind would help so that I could ditch the bulky GD.

Some pics of my work:

-Destroyer

aggressivellc · 08-14-2007, 09:29 PM

I love rewinding motors when I used to race I could take a cheap motor put 30 minutes of time and a couple dollars and some decent bearings into it and whoop up on the motors that people were spending 3 times the amount of money on. I now do the same with crawler motors. Ive got a whole selection of motors from 120 to 35 turns.

JohnRobHolmes · 08-14-2007, 11:39 PM

That looks like a speed 400 arm. That is borderline on heat for even a 2.2, since it is such a small motor (4.5 ounces at most?). Gearing down would be the only sensible way to keep it cool, and lots of wheelspeed is out of the issue. A higher wind would help to a point, with slowest gearing and higher voltage. Your other choice is to get a bigger motor.

as far as the jumpiness, how tight are the brush springs?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Destroyer

I wound my own motor a while back, and it did okay, but got VERY hot and didn't work all that well. Took that motor apart today and found out that I did one less wind on one of the stators than the others.

Patience is not my strong suit.

Anyway, I tried again and I think I did better, but I'm still not satisfied with the performance of my motor. It has Cobalt magnets, which are awesome, but I am having trouble getting the motor to start smoothly because of them. It has a hard time deciding when to stop holding and start turning, which makes it pretty jumpy on startup. If JRH or anyone else has any suggestions on how to help this, I'd appreciate it! I would like to keep as much wheelspeed as possible, but still have a decent startup if at all possible.

BTW, I used Rat Shack green (medium) wire and a 50t single pattern this time, and it doesn't seem much better than a brand new stock motor on startup. Before rewinding, I found that using a GD-600 with the motor helped smooth startup considerably (motor needs to produce less torque to get the truck rolling), which led me to believe that a higher wind would help so that I could ditch the bulky GD.

Some pics of my work:

-Destroyer

Destroyer · 08-15-2007, 06:49 AM

It's one of the Global 400 motors. 3.5oz.

I am currently running 11/90 gearing (no GD anymore) in a 2.2 tlt. I am not really worried about the heat at all...it only gets ran a few minutes at a time. I just want to see if I can get the startup to be smoother. The brush springs are pretty tight, tighter than on my normal lathe motors. They are the ones that came in the motor.

-Destroyer

Destroyer · 08-15-2007, 08:07 AM

Mine Vs. Stock:

I read back through this entire thread and I'm thinking that I may try again with the thicker wire, which looks to be the same as stock, and maybe make a 35t. That would achieve a higher "copper saturation", which may help give it more torque to combat the jumpiness?

JohnRobHolmes · 08-15-2007, 08:47 AM

A lower wind count will make it even jumpier and more likely to smoke. Raptorman and myself have both played around with that motor, and you have to have at least 50 turns for it to be usable. To increase copper saturation just put a few more winds on with that green wire. You are really close to having it full anyway though, so I wouldn't worry about it. You might be able to fit 60 turns in. I think I got 58 or something like that on my arm.

Thorsteenster · 08-15-2007, 08:58 AM

Do inrunners have winds in the can?

Destroyer · 08-15-2007, 04:01 PM

Just rewound it to a 30t double, and it is MUCH better.

Wheelspeed is the same as before, but it has much more torque and is a little more controllable. With the major improvement that this has made, I am tempted to do a 30x4 with the small red wire.

Renslipevol · 08-15-2007, 04:22 PM

I understand pretty much everything you guys are talking about. But I am confused on the 30turn double. So what is that? You put 30 turns on each pole , twice? Using really small wire? what effect does that have?

Destroyer · 08-15-2007, 06:43 PM

The way I understand it is that having more winds smooths the powerband. It may have some effect on torque and speed, but I'm not sure of that.

My 30t double, or 30x2, has 2 wires (the green ones again) wrapped around each pole 30 times. I just soldered both to the comm and started winding both together. So instead of one wire going to each part of the comm, there is 2. I figured since it looked like I had enough room to fit 60 turns in single pattern, I should be able to fit 30 turns x 2. It did fit, barely, but it works quite well. Definitely good copper saturation now; it's packed!

06-29-2007, 01:00 PM	#101
cabsover78 Pebble Pounder Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: drunken Duncan B.C Posts: 189	how should you time it?? I took apart my WKs stock 27T for my scaler and wound it to 40T with some like 25gauge wire (i think) I also bought to the radioshack stuff but didn't put it in. PUt when I wound it I might f lost count and the winds might be different. would that do anything? I hooked it up and would not start unless you helped it (gave it a spin) on no load. ANd it would get reallly hot and smoke a little, like after a run with the stock winds (27T). WHat the heck am I doing wrong??????!!!!!

06-29-2007, 01:48 PM	#103
cabsover78 Pebble Pounder Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: drunken Duncan B.C Posts: 189	nope it is not ceramic coated just plain copper wire.

06-29-2007, 01:51 PM	#104
JohnRobHolmes owner, Holmes Hobbies LLC Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Volt up! Gear down! Posts: 20,290	Use the proper motor or magnet wire. Rewind it with the radio shack stuff you bought, then see if it works.

06-29-2007, 08:04 PM	#106
Cslax06 Quarry Creeper Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Syracuse Posts: 384	Whats the ''timing'' do exactly? Ive heard people say they set it up for ''agressive'' timing. Im lost.

06-30-2007, 09:55 AM	#107
Kamikaze I wanna be Dave Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Columbia TN Posts: 6,154	The timming in a brushed motor is controled by the relation of the brushess to the magnets in the can. The magnetic feild created by the magnets in the can is constant so if you turn the endbell that holds the brushed you can change the point that the magnetic feild created by the amature changes polarity, this change in polarity provides the push needed to make the motor work. Its the same thing in a car, if you change the point in the engine cycle that the spark plug detonates you will change the charictaristics of the engine. In the case of a lathe motor you can advance the timming by rotating the endbell in relation to the can, resulting in the top rpm either incresing or decresing. The reason this sucks in rock crawling is our need for reverse is just as important as our need to go forward. So when you advange the timming one way you in turn retard the timming the opposit way resulting in a slower weaker motor in reverse. Now if you just slaped the endbell back on without any relation to 0 degree or neutral timming you can be so far out that the motor simply wont spin, I believe 27deg advanced timming is the most common, I'm not sure how much a motor will take, but imagine what a car would do if the spark plugs detonated at the botom of the compression stroke instead of the top when the gas is compressed. Thats basicly what could happen if your timming was out say 90 degrees, your motor would not work properly. Clear as mud?????

06-30-2007, 10:05 AM	#108
WheelChair Winner of the '07 RCC dumbass award! Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Up on a Mountain, out in the Woods Posts: 661	Sounds Understandable to me kamikazi Also, when the timing is advanced say 10 degrees, the motor will make more RPM driving forward but the gained speed is taken off the reverse. Timing a motor in my opinion is for racing. Rock Crawling motors should be set to 0 degrees so you still have power in reverse. Or maybe just a few degrees for a little wheelspeed. When the timing is advanced, it takes away from the low end torque of the motor, instead of power down low, it usees the power to make more RPM's. If you advance forward, you retard reverse. If you retard forward, you advance reverse. Hope this helps...

06-30-2007, 01:14 PM	#109
Cslax06 Quarry Creeper Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Syracuse Posts: 384	I understand completely now. Thanks guys.

07-11-2007, 10:39 AM	#110
bvitale Rock Stacker Join Date: May 2007 Location: Butler Posts: 76	Well I gave this a shot and it worked. Still getting a lot of clod stall but I havent changed my pinions yet. Thanks for the great write up. This was extrememly easy. Just time consuming. Oh and make sure that you don't get distracted. I had to start over after about 45 winds. I went with 65T. Later, Brandon

08-14-2007, 09:02 PM	#111
Destroyer Rock Crawler Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: North GA Posts: 824	I wound my own motor a while back, and it did okay, but got VERY hot and didn't work all that well. Took that motor apart today and found out that I did one less wind on one of the stators than the others. Patience is not my strong suit. Anyway, I tried again and I think I did better, but I'm still not satisfied with the performance of my motor. It has Cobalt magnets, which are awesome, but I am having trouble getting the motor to start smoothly because of them. It has a hard time deciding when to stop holding and start turning, which makes it pretty jumpy on startup. If JRH or anyone else has any suggestions on how to help this, I'd appreciate it! I would like to keep as much wheelspeed as possible, but still have a decent startup if at all possible. BTW, I used Rat Shack green (medium) wire and a 50t single pattern this time, and it doesn't seem much better than a brand new stock motor on startup. Before rewinding, I found that using a GD-600 with the motor helped smooth startup considerably (motor needs to produce less torque to get the truck rolling), which led me to believe that a higher wind would help so that I could ditch the bulky GD. Some pics of my work: -Destroyer

08-14-2007, 09:29 PM	#112
aggressivellc Quarry Creeper Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Racking my Brain Posts: 424	I love rewinding motors when I used to race I could take a cheap motor put 30 minutes of time and a couple dollars and some decent bearings into it and whoop up on the motors that people were spending 3 times the amount of money on. I now do the same with crawler motors. Ive got a whole selection of motors from 120 to 35 turns.

Sponsored Links

08-15-2007, 06:49 AM	#114
Destroyer Rock Crawler Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: North GA Posts: 824	It's one of the Global 400 motors. 3.5oz. I am currently running 11/90 gearing (no GD anymore) in a 2.2 tlt. I am not really worried about the heat at all...it only gets ran a few minutes at a time. I just want to see if I can get the startup to be smoother. The brush springs are pretty tight, tighter than on my normal lathe motors. They are the ones that came in the motor. -Destroyer

08-15-2007, 08:07 AM	#115
Destroyer Rock Crawler Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: North GA Posts: 824	Mine Vs. Stock: I read back through this entire thread and I'm thinking that I may try again with the thicker wire, which looks to be the same as stock, and maybe make a 35t. That would achieve a higher "copper saturation", which may help give it more torque to combat the jumpiness?

08-15-2007, 08:47 AM	#116
JohnRobHolmes owner, Holmes Hobbies LLC Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Volt up! Gear down! Posts: 20,290	A lower wind count will make it even jumpier and more likely to smoke. Raptorman and myself have both played around with that motor, and you have to have at least 50 turns for it to be usable. To increase copper saturation just put a few more winds on with that green wire. You are really close to having it full anyway though, so I wouldn't worry about it. You might be able to fit 60 turns in. I think I got 58 or something like that on my arm.

08-15-2007, 08:58 AM	#117
Thorsteenster I wanna be Dave Join Date: May 2006 Location: Arlington, VA Posts: 3,377	Do inrunners have winds in the can?

08-15-2007, 04:01 PM	#118
Destroyer Rock Crawler Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: North GA Posts: 824	Just rewound it to a 30t double, and it is MUCH better. Wheelspeed is the same as before, but it has much more torque and is a little more controllable. With the major improvement that this has made, I am tempted to do a 30x4 with the small red wire.

08-15-2007, 04:22 PM	#119
Renslipevol Quarry Creeper Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Calgary, Alberta Posts: 291	I understand pretty much everything you guys are talking about. But I am confused on the 30turn double. So what is that? You put 30 turns on each pole , twice? Using really small wire? what effect does that have?

08-15-2007, 06:43 PM	#120
Destroyer Rock Crawler Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: North GA Posts: 824	The way I understand it is that having more winds smooths the powerband. It may have some effect on torque and speed, but I'm not sure of that. My 30t double, or 30x2, has 2 wires (the green ones again) wrapped around each pole 30 times. I just soldered both to the comm and started winding both together. So instead of one wire going to each part of the comm, there is 2. I figured since it looked like I had enough room to fit 60 turns in single pattern, I should be able to fit 30 turns x 2. It did fit, barely, but it works quite well. Definitely good copper saturation now; it's packed!

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