proportional dig???

[asian195]

so i just got my XR10 built. im running the Novak M2 Dig ESC. (please dont tell me your opinions on it, got it for a really good price).

My question is, When going into Proportional dig, if i turn it up around 20% +/- the back tires wont turn until im at about 1/4 throttle, then they start to turn slower than the front like it should. Below 20% +/- the back tires turn instantly with throttle input. is this normal with other ESC setups (ie. dual escs)? Or is this just a M2 thing? thanks....

[AreCee]

Originally Posted by asian195

so i just got my XR10 built. im running the Novak M2 Dig ESC. (please dont tell me your opinions on it, got it for a really good price).

My question is, When going into Proportional dig, if i turn it up around 20% +/- the back tires wont turn until im at about 1/4 throttle, then they start to turn slower than the front like it should. Below 20% +/- the back tires turn instantly with throttle input. is this normal with other ESC setups (ie. dual escs)? Or is this just a M2 thing? thanks....

It seems normal for the M2 but dual ESCs don't work like the M2, they just work as you program them if your radio has the mixing capability.

[losikid]

I think its a m2 thing

[asian195]

So if I went to dual mamba micro pros, the rear tires would move instantly, just slower depending on dig %. Is this correct?

Sent from my uber smart, smart phone....

[bigstu]

Just out of curiosity, what motors are you running, I see they are 55t, but am needing more info.

I am a bit long winded here, so I apologize, but I think there are two issues here.

First...

This sounds like more of a motor issue than a M2 issue. I was running the 45t Tekins that came with my FXRs when I ordered them. Ran these motors for a long time and they did resonably well.
I purchased a set of Broods about a year ago and noticed a HUGE difference. The stronger magnets and other motor parts give the Brood, and any other high quality motor, a much better low speed control...
Because the motors are more effecient they need less power to get rolling..

I am pulling numbers out of my rear here, so take this with a grain of salt. This is just to get you thinking about what is going on with the motors..

SO, if your 55t motors need 6 volts to get rolling, it doesn't matter what your M2 is doing for mixing etc, the motor isnt' going to start rotating until you get 6 volts at the motor. This is because the motors are ineffecient at lower speeds.
Compared to a good hand wound motor (Brood, Holmes, Fantom, etc...) Which might only need 4 volts to get rotating.
What I am saying is, your M2 may be able to control a motor down lower than 20% mixing (lower than the 6 volts), but your motors might not be able to respond to that small difference in voltage.
You also have to remember, it takes more power to get a motor going from a dead stop, then it does to change speed when already moving. Set your M2 at 10 or 15, give it enough throttle to get them rolling and then slowly decrease the throttle. See if you can see a difference in speed then, I bet you will. Another sign of ineffecient motors.

I can say this, with the FXRs and my 4pk, this is what I saw..
To get a significtant difference in wheel speed, with the stock 45t Tekins, I had to dial in at least 15 to 20 points difference on my radio. So I could dial in 100 on the front motor and 80 onthe rear motor and see the wheel speed difference.
With NO other changes, just the switch to the 35t Brood motors, I can see a difference at 10% and at 5% you can see the truck respond by raising up or lowering itself (depending on which way you go on the mixing)
NOW keep this in mind. The Brood motors I purchased were VERY SPECIAL motors. This pair of motors was ordered with special cans, arms, brushes, magnets, everything was hand picked to be the best at the time. This set of motors was OVER $300 brand new. For about half that, $150, you can get a set of motors from Holmes or Brood that will out perform a set of machine wounds any day..
They will make you grin like an idiot the first time you have lots of traction and you give it WOT. Guranateed to flip the truck over from a dead stop..

Second......

Ditch the 2S batteries..
I am not sure if the M2 will handle 3S or more, but I live by one of John's philosophies. Volts UP gear DOWN...
I never ran 2S on my comp rigs, have always run 3S or 4S packs. For a while I did run 2S on one of my scalers.
With 35t motors in both, there was a noticeable difference in the punch (quick trips to wide open throttle) and the low speed control.
Just for grins I put one of my 3S packs for my comp rig, in my scaler, and have never looked back.

I understand all this may not be in your budget, but get to know the truck and get to learn how it drives. Then make the jump and I guarantee you will not regret it.
I know it took me longer to be able to handle the truck, because I had too much motor and made silly mistakes with too much throttle.
To this day I have the throttle curve dialed back on my comp rig because I get a little silly with the throttle.

Hope this helps..

[AreCee]

Originally Posted by asian195

So if I went to dual mamba micro pros, the rear tires would move instantly, just slower depending on dig %. Is this correct?...

Generally yes regardless of motor wind.

I'm using an old 3PKS/Spektrum and my dual FXR has both starting at the same time only the rear is proportionally slower depending on the % applied. At 100% they are the same speed. I rebuild them the same way and set the timing equally on both motors.

[AreCee]

Originally Posted by bigstu

This sounds like more of a motor issue than a M2 issue. I was running the 45t Tekins that came with my FXRs when I ordered them. Ran these motors for a long time and they did resonably well.
I purchased a set of Broods about a year ago and noticed a HUGE difference. The stronger magnets and other motor parts give the Brood, and any other high quality motor, a much better low speed control...
Because the motors are more effecient they need less power to get rolling..
..

So you think you see a HUGE gain by replacing old worn out machine wound motors with BRAND NEW hand wound motors. I wonder what was wrong with the old ones?

It isn't the motors that keep me from winning but only the bad driver.

[Ty@Tekin]

Originally Posted by bigstu

Just out of curiosity, what motors are you running, I see they are 55t, but am needing more info.

I am a bit long winded here, so I apologize, but I think there are two issues here.

First...

This sounds like more of a motor issue than a M2 issue. I was running the 45t Tekins that came with my FXRs when I ordered them. Ran these motors for a long time and they did resonably well.
I purchased a set of Broods about a year ago and noticed a HUGE difference. The stronger magnets and other motor parts give the Brood, and any other high quality motor, a much better low speed control...
Because the motors are more effecient they need less power to get rolling..

I am pulling numbers out of my rear here, so take this with a grain of salt. This is just to get you thinking about what is going on with the motors..

SO, if your 55t motors need 6 volts to get rolling, it doesn't matter what your M2 is doing for mixing etc, the motor isnt' going to start rotating until you get 6 volts at the motor. This is because the motors are ineffecient at lower speeds.
Compared to a good hand wound motor (Brood, Holmes, Fantom, etc...) Which might only need 4 volts to get rotating.
What I am saying is, your M2 may be able to control a motor down lower than 20% mixing (lower than the 6 volts), but your motors might not be able to respond to that small difference in voltage.
You also have to remember, it takes more power to get a motor going from a dead stop, then it does to change speed when already moving. Set your M2 at 10 or 15, give it enough throttle to get them rolling and then slowly decrease the throttle. See if you can see a difference in speed then, I bet you will. Another sign of ineffecient motors.

I can say this, with the FXRs and my 4pk, this is what I saw..
To get a significtant difference in wheel speed, with the stock 45t Tekins, I had to dial in at least 15 to 20 points difference on my radio. So I could dial in 100 on the front motor and 80 onthe rear motor and see the wheel speed difference.
With NO other changes, just the switch to the 35t Brood motors, I can see a difference at 10% and at 5% you can see the truck respond by raising up or lowering itself (depending on which way you go on the mixing)
NOW keep this in mind. The Brood motors I purchased were VERY SPECIAL motors. This pair of motors was ordered with special cans, arms, brushes, magnets, everything was hand picked to be the best at the time. This set of motors was OVER $300 brand new. For about half that, $150, you can get a set of motors from Holmes or Brood that will out perform a set of machine wounds any day..
They will make you grin like an idiot the first time you have lots of traction and you give it WOT. Guranateed to flip the truck over from a dead stop..

Second......

Ditch the 2S batteries..
I am not sure if the M2 will handle 3S or more, but I live by one of John's philosophies. Volts UP gear DOWN...
I never ran 2S on my comp rigs, have always run 3S or 4S packs. For a while I did run 2S on one of my scalers.
With 35t motors in both, there was a noticeable difference in the punch (quick trips to wide open throttle) and the low speed control.
Just for grins I put one of my 3S packs for my comp rig, in my scaler, and have never looked back.

I understand all this may not be in your budget, but get to know the truck and get to learn how it drives. Then make the jump and I guarantee you will not regret it.
I know it took me longer to be able to handle the truck, because I had too much motor and made silly mistakes with too much throttle.
To this day I have the throttle curve dialed back on my comp rig because I get a little silly with the throttle.

Hope this helps..

All very good points and info

The only things I would like to comment on is that generally motors with higher strength magnets take more power to get them moving, to overcome the, what we call, cog torque. Weaker motors should be able to drive slower, at least in my experience. The other thing is that those motors are more than likely 5-slot winds, whereas our current motors aren't. (Notice I said current!) Typically they are more expensive and will have a performance edge for sure.

[asian195]

I'm running the terra claw motors that come with the m2. I know they aren't that good. They were free.

what you said about the motors being the possible problem makes complete sense. I will try adjusting proportional while rolling and see what happens, like you recommended.

A little scared to run 3s cause of the stock gears. The m2 can handle 3s, not sure of 4s, but that would be way to much for me anyway. Thanks for the advice.

Sent from my uber smart, smart phone....

[DiggyStyle]

Yep. Gotta be an M2 thing.

[AreCee]

Originally Posted by DiggyStyle

Yep. Gotta be an M2 thing.

It is an M2 thing.

Freaked me out when I had one. The rear just wouldn't start at the same time until you got on the throttle then it would go at the slower rate.

It doesn't matter what motors you use as long as they're the same front and back. Those Terra Claws are "0" degree closed endbell cheapo motors but are not the problem. It is in the way Novak programmed the ESC in Propo mode.

[bigstu]

Originally Posted by AreCee

So you think you see a HUGE gain by replacing old worn out machine wound motors with BRAND NEW hand wound motors. I wonder what was wrong with the old ones?

It isn't the motors that keep me from winning but only the bad driver.

If I could keep my impulses to "try a different line than everyone else" and not get frustrated I would be a MUCH better driver.. Funny, since I moved back to Michigan I haven't really worried as mucha about where I place on the score sheet, but am I having a good time.

My machine wounds wern't worn out by any means, I had the coms turned and replaced the brushes regularly. I have been maintaining my electric motors since I was running Kyosho modifieds as a teen ager..

I do believe good motors will make you a better driver.. The low speed control and predictability of the motors is MUCH greater.
I didn't believe that motors could make that much of a difference, I was wrong.

If you are going to stick with the 55t motors for a while, don't hesitate on 3s and the stock gears. Do the mod to make the motor plate use 9mm bearings and follow the recommendations in the XR10 forum..

[losikid]

Originally Posted by bigstu

SO, if your 55t motors need 6 volts to get rolling, it doesn't matter what your M2 is doing for mixing etc, the motor isnt' going to start rotating until you get 6 volts at the motor. This is because the motors are ineffecient at lower speeds.
Compared to a good hand wound motor (Brood, Holmes, Fantom, etc...) Which might only need 4 volts to get rotating.
What I am saying is, your M2 may be able to control a motor down lower than 20% mixing (lower than the 6 volts), but your motors might not be able to respond to that small difference in voltage.

I just have to point this out.

A esc doesn't change voltage, if your running a 3s lipo pack, the voltage that the 3s lipo pack is always going to the motor, if your running a 2s pack, that voltage is always going to the motor. (i'll explain more here shortly)

IF a esc was to vary the voltage and provide a steady stream of DC power, were talking MASSIVE power dissipation (HEAT) in the works. Because only way to decrease the voltage is to increase current (amps) or resistance, this is according to ohms law....both of which will cause major heat.

So what modern esc's do, is pulse that power very fast, were talking pulses that are milliseconds long for a low resolution esc or even go down into nano seconds for a high resolution super smooth esc...also known as PWM (pulse width modulation) waves.

[asian195]

Originally Posted by bigstu

If you are going to stick with the 55t motors for a while, don't hesitate on 3s and the stock gears. Do the mod to make the motor plate use 9mm bearings and follow the recommendations in the XR10 forum..

i did the bearing/bushing mod right off the bat. wasnt gonna risk it from what ive read. maybe ill order up some 3S.

i also tested the rolling then adjusting propo, the rears stopped before the front. i think everyone who said its a M2 thing must be right. thanks for your help guys.

[SMR 510RR]

On my Dual ESC setup if I am at about 50% then the rear/front wont start at the same time. Since the ESC's have a dead band or gap between the start of forward and start of reverse they wont startup until the dead band "slack" is taken up.

That said, it is nowhere near 20% where this happens.

[KBrog]

If its a M2 thing than its a dual Mamba Max thing too.

If I take my rear ESC from 100% down to 90%, and pull the throttle just a tinny bit. The front wheel will spin and the rears will not. Then, if I pull the throttle some more, to around 1/4 or so, the rear will start to come in and spin. It has to do with the throttle signal from the radio to the ESC's.