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Old 04-21-2014, 01:38 PM   #1
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Default Too Much Current From A Battery Killed my Brushless Motor? I DON'T THINK SO!!

I need some advice (and documentation) from an electronics technician or engineer or guru...

I made the mistake of buying a DHK Maximus from my local Hobby People when it was on a 1-day President's Day sale price of $250. I am capable of working on my own rigs and figured, for $250, even if it has some issues, I can make it better than it was before.

The thing is bloody fast box stock, when it runs. I've had it for a month. It's been in the shop three times. Each time was for a ruined motor and ESC. I never changed the stock setup. They could see that the truck was not damaged, so they replaced the motor and ESC each of the first two times under warranty.

This time, they are not honoring the warranty because they say it's my fault. The fault - using batteries with too much of a C-Rating...

The Maximus takes dual 2S batteries in series (4S total) and came with (2) DHK branded 3200mAh 20C batteries. I recently bought a second set for it. Those are good quality SPC batteries rated at 6900mAh and 70C. The rig ran great on those. However, when I ran the smaller batteries, it quit running for a THIRD time. The wires got so hot that one of the Deans connectors came unsoldered from on of the batteries.

I took the truck, the original batteries and the new batteries to the store and explained what happened. I took the new batteries in order to show the manager that it was the original batteries causing the problem. Instead, the store manager actually used that against me and immediately said, "Those new batteries are the problem! They are overpowering your motor!" I respectfully disagreed with him. He finally said to leave the truck with him and he'd look it over and get back to me. That was last week.

Today, he called to say that he'd spoken with a regional representative of DHK who said that I ruinied the motor with too much current. Again, I respecfully disagreed. I did my best to explain how a motor and ESC draw the current they need, but a battery does not PUSH current. He would not budge. I asked him for the name and number of the DHK representative so I could explain it to him. The manger refused to provide that.

So I tried different logic: The first two times under warranty were running the original batteries. I did not have the new batteries then. How could he explain that? He reverted back to "I can only do what DHK allows."

I would not back down, but I did keep my cool. I'm not the angry type. So, he finally said, bring me proof of what you are saying and I will try to convince DHK.

And THAT, my friends, is where I need your help. I have read lots of info in forums on this topic, but none of it could be printed as proof. It's all hear-say. What I need are links to some published documents from professional sources explaining that a battery of the correct voltage cannot PUSH too much current to a brushless motor.

Unless I'm wrong. Then you can tell me that and I will fade away with my tail between my legs.

Final note: I am quite capable of putting in a better motor and ESC, and that is what I will do if DHK and Hobby People don't come through. Naturally, I haven't told them that. This has become a matter of principal to me because I don't like it when I'm told I have done something wrong that I don't believe is wrong.

THANKS SO MUCH IF YOU CAN HELP WITH DOCUMENTATION LINKS!
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Old 04-21-2014, 01:51 PM   #2
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Default Re: Too Much Current From A Battery Killed my Brushless Motor? I DON'T THINK SO!!

Get them to warranty the parts one last time and then sell them and upgrade. You could run 999999c batteries and it wouldn't hurt anything as long as its geared correctly and you aren't giving it full throttle when the motor is stalled.
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Old 04-21-2014, 02:09 PM   #3
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Seems like he's got the burden of proof, not you. If indeed what he's saying is true, the manufacturer of the higher c rated batteries are at fault. Not you, the consumer.

Talk to spc and let them laugh, get a name and number and have that idiot manager talk to them.

Edut: Don't forget to let that hobby shop know that you will never shop at an establishment with ignorant management of products they sell.

Last edited by Meatwad; 04-21-2014 at 02:12 PM.
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Old 04-21-2014, 02:30 PM   #4
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Default Re: Too Much Current From A Battery Killed my Brushless Motor? I DON'T THINK SO!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meatwad View Post
Seems like he's got the burden of proof, not you. If indeed what he's saying is true, the manufacturer of the higher c rated batteries are at fault. Not you, the consumer.

Talk to spc and let them laugh, get a name and number and have that idiot manager talk to them.

Edut: Don't forget to let that hobby shop know that you will never shop at an establishment with ignorant management of products they sell.
I think I have the burden of proof because he won't warranty me another motor unless I make the proof. He is saying it's not him being a butt, but that it's DHK. Could be, or could be him dodging. Either way, If I could find an equation or theorem or something in writing to provide to him, I could get the new motor, then sell the stuff as you said.

I have not made any threats yet because I don't work like that. I usually get the most help from people by treating them with fairness and respect, even when I think they are wrong. However, if it comes down to an impass, I won't have any problem letting him know that I am a very good writer and will be putting a review of DHK and Hobby People support on every forum that I'm a member of. That won't be a threat. It will be a promise. I have documented all of it including photos. I'm prepared.

Last edited by MailManX; 04-21-2014 at 06:26 PM. Reason: Corrected typo of Company name to DHK from DKH
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Old 04-21-2014, 03:15 PM   #5
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Why would spc allow a battery pack, for sale to the public, without supplied documentation warning that their packs could potentially burn up devices be available? ... If that's indeed the case as the manager asserts. He has the burden of proof to prove that a battery, under normal operation, causes damage when there is no supportive documentation anywhere. Especially after making wreckless claims.

Is the manager insinuating that spc knowingly sells damaging and unsafe products to the public?
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Old 04-21-2014, 03:46 PM   #6
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Default Re: Too Much Current From A Battery Killed my Brushless Motor? I DON'T THINK SO!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meatwad View Post
Seems like he's got the burden of proof, not you. If indeed what he's saying is true, the manufacturer of the higher c rated batteries are at fault. Not you, the consumer.

Talk to spc and let them laugh, get a name and number and have that idiot manager talk to them.

Edut: Don't forget to let that hobby shop know that you will never shop at an establishment with ignorant management of products they sell.
Agreed on all points.

Either the shop owner and factory rep A) don't know wtf they are talking about, or B), they're telling you a story to avoid honoring the warranty again on their crappy products.
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Old 04-21-2014, 03:54 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Duuuuuuuude View Post
Agreed on all points.

Either the shop owner and factory rep A) don't know wtf they are talking about, or B), they're telling you a story to avoid honoring the warranty again on their crappy products.
After the phone call, I went and talked to the manager personally. I read people pretty well. I looked him in the eye during the discussion and could tell by his body language and inflections that it is item "B" all the way. I don't think it's necessarily him. I've dealt with him before and I think he's a straight up guy. However, he has to support his store's bottom line. I think that DHK won't honor the warranty, so his store would have to do it out of pocket. That puts him in a tough spot. He's not the owner, so he has a higher authority to answer to financially.

I don't really have much hope that I will win this, but at least I know I'm right about how the electronics work. I'm no electrician, but I'm no dummy.
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Old 04-21-2014, 03:59 PM   #8
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Default Re: Too Much Current From A Battery Killed my Brushless Motor? I DON'T THINK SO!!

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Originally Posted by MailManX View Post
After the phone call, I went and talked to the manager personally. I read people pretty well. I looked him in the eye during the discussion and could tell by his body language and inflections that it is item "B" all the way. I don't think it's necessarily him. I've dealt with him before and I think he's a straight up guy. However, he has to support his store's bottom line. I think that DHK won't honor the warranty, so his store would have to do it out of pocket. That puts him in a tough spot. He's not the owner, so he has a higher authority to answer to financially.

I don't really have much hope that I will win this, but at least I know I'm right about how the electronics work. I'm no electrician, but I'm no dummy.
If it is still under factory warranty, it is not his responsibility to cover costs, its the factorys.

I've dealt with warranties for many years, and if a mfg won't play ball when they should, I let the customer know my hands are tied and tell them to call directly. They don't mind manhandling shops, but they have a very different attitude when an actual customer calls.

Whether or not you gain any ground on this, I'd find a new esc/motor combo. The stock setup clearly isn't adequate.
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Old 04-21-2014, 04:38 PM   #9
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Default Re: Too Much Current From A Battery Killed my Brushless Motor? I DON'T THINK SO!!

would it be possible to get the proof from a lipo company? I would think any of them could provide you with the facts about c rating?
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Old 04-21-2014, 06:21 PM   #10
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would it be possible to get the proof from a lipo company? I would think any of them could provide you with the facts about c rating?
That's an excellent idea. I think someone else up the line suggested that, too. I have sent an e-mail to SPC with a summary of what happened and hope that they will provide me with documentation.

Duuuuude, I did ask for the DHK representative name and number. The manager refused to give it to me. For now, I'll wait for feedback from SPC. Then I will go back and the store ready to push a bit harder. They will find that I'm not mean, but I am VERY persistent. And yes, no matter what happens, I will be using a different motor and ESC.

The rest of the rig is surprisingly well built and durable. Much of it is aluminum, albeit 6061 rather than 7075. I bent the rear shock tower in a roll-over accident. I believe it's 4mm aluminum. One ear was slightly bent. I bent it back with a large crescent wrench and it hasn't bent again. Someday, I will just double it up, or create a brace for it.

I knew about some of the issues ahead of time and was willing to deal with them. The screws, for example, are mostly all Phllips head. The ones going into plastic are all course-thread self-tapping screws. Someone said on another forum that even the screws going into aluminum are self-tapping, but that's not the case. I took out several to verify. Little by little, I am replacing all of the stock screws with better quality metric 12.9 hex screws. Where I can, I'm running new fine thread screws all the way through the plastic bits and using a locking nut on the opposite end. That is much more secure than the self-tapping situation. Overall, I think this truck will be a lot of fun with reliable electronics. In fact, once all this pans out, I plan to write a well-documented review with pictures giving the pros and cons of the truck along with the pros and cons of the parts and warranty support. I looked for a really thorough review before I purchased mine and there just wasn't much out there. I knew I was taking a risk. I actually set myself up as a guinea pig because I do like the write and I decided right up front that I would eventually write a review to help other newbies who might consider one of these DHK trucks. I would never have purchased this truck for it's retail price of over $400. But for $250, I took the chance. Thankfully I also have six other "quality" rigs from REAL companies other than DHK. I get to have fun with those while the Maximus is out of commission. You may have even heard of some of the other companies: Associated, Losi, Traxxas, Thunder Tiger, etc.

Cheers - I'll keep you all posted on what transpires.

Last edited by MailManX; 04-21-2014 at 06:41 PM.
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Old 04-21-2014, 06:44 PM   #11
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Default Re: Too Much Current From A Battery Killed my Brushless Motor? I DON'T THINK SO!!

I doubt the motor is fried just the ESC. If anything this sounds like the same issue Castle had with the mamba monster and using under rated lipos and because of this over heating the ESC and smoking it. They finally put up a warning that there was a minimum C rating for the mamba monster to work.

Even if you can't get the name of the guy at DHK you should be able to still call them and tell them what shop you are dealing with and they should be able to pull up the info if not then start a new claim with you. If they give you the run around tell them you want to talk to a supervisor or hirer and go from there. Manufactures do usually give in to customers quicker then they do LHS cause they don't want the bad p/r. And if in the end they don't do anything let them have it on the forums and if they have twitter or facebook or any other social media and let it go there too.
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Old 04-21-2014, 06:49 PM   #12
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Hi Maverick,

On the first two ocassions, both the motor and the ESC failed. This time, the manager said it's just the motor and not the ESC. They do all the testing and work in-store for their own brands, so I haven't been able to verify in personally. However, I agree with you that it's odd for the motor to crap out instead of the ESC in this instance.

I will definitely make a cold-call to DHK if I have to. But I will pursue it with the LHS to it's logical conclusion there, then go up the food chain if necessary.
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Old 04-21-2014, 07:08 PM   #13
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Default Re: Too Much Current From A Battery Killed my Brushless Motor? I DON'T THINK SO!!

The only way I can see the motor failing is the ESC taking it out by completely shorting internally and sending all that current straight to the motor which isn't out of the question. I've seen it happen in the real world with large motors and controllers shorting in closed position but can't say I've ever seen it in the RC world but as I said it's not out of the realm of possibilities. If you want some proof see if you can find the specs on the motor like the wattage then you can figure out your electrical values using the ohms law formulas.
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Old 04-21-2014, 07:20 PM   #14
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All of this speculation isn't out of the question and could be possibly be what's wrong, still not caused by a high c rated lipo. The discharge rate isn't pushed out of the battery, it's drawn.
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Old 04-21-2014, 07:21 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by mavrick0 View Post
The only way I can see the motor failing is the ESC taking it out by completely shorting internally and sending all that current straight to the motor which isn't out of the question. I've seen it happen in the real world with large motors and controllers shorting in closed position but can't say I've ever seen it in the RC world but as I said it's not out of the realm of possibilities. If you want some proof see if you can find the specs on the motor like the wattage then you can figure out your electrical values using the ohms law formulas.
I tried getting the specs. They seem to be unavailable except for some basic info that is less than I need. It is a DHK branded part number H115. The manual provides the following info:

3670 motor KV(RPM) : 2260
Power : 14.8V
Empty load current : 4.0A(10V)
Resistance(Ω) : 0.01Ω
Length(including motor shaft) : 85mm
Diameter : 36mm
Weight : 338g
Shaft diameter : 5mm
Battery (Li-Po) : 2-4S

Other than that, I cannot find anything else on the motor. It's pretty obviously some Chinese knockoff, but I can't match it up to anything.

Just for the heck of it, to help with future search function hits, here is the text of the e-mail that I sent to SPC this afternoon:

------------------------

Dear SPC,

Your awesome batteries are being slandered by Hobby People and DHK Hobbies. Well OK, that is probably a stretch, but it's along that line...

I could use your assistance. Please reference order number 2335. In that order, you will see that I recently ordered (4) batteries, two of which are 6900mAh, 70C, 2S, 7.4V Hard-Case batteries. Those are great batteries!

I used those hard case batteries in a DHK Maximus Monster Truck which I recently purchased new from Hobby People. That truck takes a dual battery configuration with two 2S batteries in series for a total of 4S. The truck comes with (2) DHK branded 3200mAh 20C batteries. When I ran the truck with those batteries, the motor got hot. When I ran the truck with your batteries, it ran great.

A few days ago, the motor in the Maximus started acting funny. When I brought it over to check the temps, one of the battery connectors was so hot that it came unsoldered from the battery lead when I touched it. That was on one of the stock batteries, not yours.

I took the truck to Hobby People for warranty repair. I took their batteries to show how the connector melted off. I also took your set of SPC batteries to explain to them that the truck worked great when used with appropriate power.

Unfortunately, what I thought was in my favor worked against me. The store manager took one look at those batteries and exclaimed that they ruined the electronics by being too powerful! When I asked for clarification, he said the 70C rating pushes too many amps to the stock ESC and MOTOR which caused them to burn out. I pointed out to him that it was the cheap batteries that had a connector de-soldered. He said it was probably from damage already caused by your batteries.

At that point, I let him know that I actually understand how electricity works and that batteries don't PUSH current. The amps are there waiting to be used and will be used as need by the motor and ESC drawing from them. He would not budge, I asked him to contact DHK. He said he would.

He called today to let me know that DHK denied the claim for the same reason, your batteries are too powerful and ruined the electronics. Naturally, I was stunned that these people do not understand basic laws of electricity! I told him it was like trying to deny that gravity exists. He finally said that if I could get him proof of this theory in writing that he would "try" to convince DHK to honor the warranty.

And THAT is where I need your help. I cannot seem to find the right documentation online. Can you send me any info on LiPo batteries that is able refute the claims made by Hobby People and DHK? I am rather incensed that they are saying this is my fault, or your fault, when they are clearly either stupid or just lying to avoid warranty. Either one of those makes me quite upset and I intend to pester them with facts until they can't deny it.

Thanks so much!
Michael Preyer
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Old 04-21-2014, 08:05 PM   #16
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Default Re: Too Much Current From A Battery Killed my Brushless Motor? I DON'T THINK SO!!

I'm not sure of you've read this before or have found in in your search but there is lots of good info here for LIPO use and selection, it doesn't have the exact answer you need but goes through how hey work and what draws the power etc.....

Understanding RC LiPo Batteries

--Dan

Last edited by sickcivic95; 04-21-2014 at 08:10 PM.
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Old 04-21-2014, 08:59 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by sickcivic95 View Post
I'm not sure of you've read this before or have found in in your search but there is lots of good info here for LIPO use and selection, it doesn't have the exact answer you need but goes through how hey work and what draws the power etc.....

Understanding RC LiPo Batteries

--Dan
That is such an awesome website! It is one of the first I ever found a few years ago. I actually started out flying electric RC helicopters when LiPo's were just hitting the market. I enjoyed it, to a degree. I'm all thumbs, which is actually good for flying helicopters. On the downside, I have no idea who is controlling my thumbs while flying. It sure as hell ain't me! They do things I never told them to do!

Needless to say, parts were gettng pretty expensive and I was getting frustrated by not getting any better. I tried. Truly! I got a good quality simulator and spent hours on it. That never felt right to me.

I can thank my father who has always been a blessing in my life for setting me straight. He asked me, "Do you ever plan to compete?" I replied in the negative. His next question was, "Are you having fun doing this and trying to get better?" I had to admit it had lost the initial interest and the honeymoon was over. The helicopters just weren't putting out the way I'd expected them to (story of my life!). He said, "Then why keep doing it?" And he was right. I quit. I found other things to do and was happier.

But something was always missing. A few short years later along comes a wonderful grandson who my wife and I are raising. He is now 9 and we have a blast together. We share many of the same interests and he is willing to learn from me. He expressed an interest in RC vehicles. We started with crawlers. That wasn't his cup of tea. He's a basher at heart. Now we have quite a stable of rigs (two crawlers, three bashers, an 1/8th scale buggy and that stupid DHK critter). This time, I am having FUN with RC's! I don't have to use my thumbs. The cars actually go where I point the steering wheel. It's a completely novel concept and I love it!

Last edited by MailManX; 04-21-2014 at 09:01 PM. Reason: Fixed an egregious error.
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Old 04-21-2014, 10:23 PM   #18
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Hi MailManX,

Love your post and feel your pain.

Sadly, I'm a complete noob and have nothing meaningful to add other than I too have just purchased a Maximus and love it. Purchased a Tamiya 1/10 buggy a few weeks ago for my girls (who are already showing signs of tiring of it) and thought another would be a great idea.

I've trawled the various forums in the hope that someone has started a dedicated thread for DHK but I haven't found anything.

This thing is crazy fast and I've already damaged the shell and popped a shock. It's actually popped twice now so I'm down to using canola oil until I have permission to order parts. I think the thread is now damaged so it'll likely happen again. This will probably be the first upgrade!

So far the electrics seem good although I was surprised to find the fans kick off as soon as the ESC is switched on!

Anyway, apologies if responding to this thread with an off-topic reply is not appropriate. Will be interested to see how you get on as I plan to purchase a couple of 5000+mah lipos as (as you know), the stock run time is woeful!
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Old 04-21-2014, 10:37 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Warmntoasty View Post
So far the electrics seem good although I was surprised to find the fans kick off as soon as the ESC is switched on!

Anyway, apologies if responding to this thread with an off-topic reply is not appropriate.
No apology necessary. All comments are welcome, and I don't even consider it off topic. I would think that I got a lemon except that it's happened three times in just a few weeks. Maybe they got a bad batch of motors? Who knows. But one way or the other, I'll make this thing work. It has potential regardless of the people who build it and sell it.

The fans kick on because it was a lot cheaper for them to make them direct connect instead of being temperature controlled. There are definitely corners cut on the truck in some places.

I think once I get the electronics issue all sorted out, I will attempt to start a dedicated DKH thread on whatever forum will allow it. I can use the review I intend to write as a kickoff for the thread. The Maximus isn't a crawler, so it may not fit in here (even though plenty of us are bashers, too).

Since there is basically zero aftermarket support for the DHK products, we need a small community of owners who are technically savvy and willing to experiment, then share with others what works and what doesn't.

For example, I just put HUGE Hot Bodies D8T 1/8 scale truggy shocks onto my grandson's Stampede 4x4 because other people tried it and wrote about it. What a crazy difference those shocks make in landing big air. The sharing of ideas on these forums is my favorite thing about them.

OH - And welcome! Congrats on post number 1! I am so envious of where you live. If I were to live anywhere else than the US, it would be NZ. I have a lifelong friend who has lived there for over 25 years. He was born in the US, but has roots in Australia. When he was about 30, he quit a dead-end job in the US and decided to travel to Australia to visit family and try to see the country while earning money along the way anyway he could. While at the ranch of an uncle, they said, "Hey, there's a family wedding in New Zealand in a couple weeks. Wanna go?" He went. He never left. He fell in love with the country, then he fell in love with the women who has been his wife for 15 years now. She was born in Fiji, but grew up a Kiwi. He started a successful business in Auckland recycling shipping palettes. Who knew 10 years ago when he started from the back of a beat up pickup that he would become a millionaire! He goes by "Frank the Yank" and is bigger than life. That man would give you the shirt off his back even if he didn't know you. My wife and I spent three weeks in 2007 visiting them and hitting all the tourist sites on the North and South Islands. My God, what an amazing country you live in. You are blessed.

Last edited by MailManX; 04-21-2014 at 10:48 PM.
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Old 04-22-2014, 08:13 AM   #20
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Default Re: Too Much Current From A Battery Killed my Brushless Motor? I DON'T THINK SO!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meatwad View Post
All of this speculation isn't out of the question and could be possibly be what's wrong, still not caused by a high c rated lipo. The discharge rate isn't pushed out of the battery, it's drawn.
Agree, as long as your voltage is correct and your esc isn't shorting or underrated, you should be able to run any C rating you like, you probably wont use all of what your paying for should you buy a high c rating battery, but with the right esc motor combo I'm sure you could.

The only way I can work out that the C rating can ruin a ESC or motor is if the esc is cheap or shorted and just drawing as much power as it possibly can when at max throttle. These ESC's would be an example of an underrated esc.

I would check any manuals or documentation on the vehicle and see if they do in fact state that any lipo run in the vehicle must be below X-C dischare rating. Seems silly to me an Electronic Speed Controller needs the battery to control how much power it draws...

Happy Crawling/Bashing,
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