New high end sensored ESC (crawler friendly)

[Chumley54]

Originally Posted by JohnRobHolmes

If I was being defensive you would get my destructive testing results too ;) Just making the point about specs on paper compared to real world possibilities. An esc boasting 1200 amp burst raises red flags for me as an educated consumer. If I can't even make it possible on paper, and the wires generate half the heat in this fantasy setup, it makes me wonder if they really have a 33% hardware improvements beyond the spec sheet.

The way the page reads, their new fets are gaining 40 amps continuous because of better heatsinking. With their fantasy 0.009 ohm setup, that is 100 watts more shedding than 120 amps. If they had used 8ga wire too, it would be feasible. Heat rejection is paramount to continuous load rating. But they kept 12ga wires and injected 50 more watts of heat into them without an issue? Looks like I need to move to china where the laws of thermodynamics don't apply.


I totally agree that a new choice is awesome for us. I hope the performance matches the sparkle of the spec sheet. But I also hope that consumers don't blindly accept a sparkly spec sheet and throw this new esc into an 8th scale rig expecting the same performance as larger 160a units with appropriate sized wire.

My concern is for the customer that doesn't know any better, not for another new product "in my turf" . I would go nuts worrying about new releases, they will never stop!

Ps, you need an external bec

to your point:

My 1:1 car uses a 700 Cold Cranking amp Rating. I have never seen an RC device that could handle the starter motor on a 1:1 car. None of them need 1200 amps.

Wiring for my motorcycle, that has a 80 amp draw starter motor @12V, uses 4 gauge wiring. Cars with about double that (120-160 A) use even larger wiring. A 1200 amp ESC would need 000 gauge wiring, about 1/2 inch thick....unless you like the orange glow from the wiring.

Funnier is the 320 amp burst rating on cheapo ESC's that have a Tamiya connector. 15 amps continous would melt them.

I am not sure how the ratings became so unrealistic. The wiring and components are not really designed for all that current, or the heat from the wattage.

When you calculate that 776 watts is a horsepower, than a 3S, 11.1 V battery at 120 amps is 1332 watts, nearly 2 hp. The gears, driveshaft, transmission in our little cars aren't made for that kind of power either.

I take all of those rating as hype....hopefully an "80 Amp" ESC handles more current/watts than a "60 Amp" ESC, but you really can not trust that completely either.

[JohnRobHolmes]

I feel we are on the same page now.

FYI, the old amp ratings were straight off the FET data sheets. Companies still do it today too, which is probably where the 1200a and 160a figures come from. The continuous figure is with some assumed amount of heat sinking. Each FET can easily do it, but controller configuration presents problem getting the heatsink in contact with them all.

[Olle P]

Originally Posted by 84yoda

But really, 200 bucks and 2/3s only? Seriously?

You pay for the high current ability. With higher voltage you don't need that much current.

Originally Posted by Chumley54

... 80 amp draw starter motor @12V, uses 4 gauge wiring. Cars with about double that (120-160 A) use even larger wiring. A 1200 amp ESC would need 000 gauge wiring, ...

The analogy isn't that straight:
* Starter motors can (be expected to) be used repeatedly for ~10s when it's -30C. The wires need to handle any accumulated heat.
* The starter motor wires are quite a bit longer, so the total resistance would be a factor with thinner wires.
* Starter motor cables are supposed to still have sufficiently low resistance after sustaining >1,500h of mechanical vibrations.

Originally Posted by Chumley54

... nearly 2 hp. The gears, driveshaft, transmission in our little cars aren't made for that kind of power either.

They're not exposed to that much power. Expect at least half an horsepower of those two to be transformed into heat inside the motor.

[Chumley54]

Originally Posted by Olle P

You pay for the high current ability. With higher voltage you don't need that much current.

The analogy isn't that straight:
* Starter motors can (be expected to) be used repeatedly for ~10s when it's -30C. The wires need to handle any accumulated heat.
* The starter motor wires are quite a bit longer, so the total resistance would be a factor with thinner wires.
* Starter motor cables are supposed to still have sufficiently low resistance after sustaining >1,500h of mechanical vibrations.

They're not exposed to that much power. Expect at least half an horsepower of those two to be transformed into heat inside the motor.

Well, my starter is close to the battery, not all that long...Granted, some cars have long wiring runs....But nowhere near 1200 Amps draw. My motorcycle is only about 80 amps sustained, supposedly within the realm of an ESC at 12V....Still uses much heavier cable. I rarely start my car at -30c. Never start my motorcycles at that temperature....LOL

A 3s is 11.1 volts, a 4S is 14.4 volts...all within the automotive realm.

As far as vibrations, I suspect an RC Car has more vibration than a 1:1, though the time factor is a bit different.

Still, 12 gauge wiring is not really suitable for 1200 Amp loads.

And as far as heat, 1/2 HP of heat is 300-400 watts of heat. Thats the low setting on my electric space heater. dissipating 300 watts of heat is quite a bit....

Deans and Anderson power pole test to failure. - Page 1

Here's some real world testing..no way 1200 amps is doable with normal wiring and components...

[JatoTheRipper]

Originally Posted by JohnRobHolmes

That's quite new. A Chinese made, Chinese company selling their esc's for more than American made equivalent. That's pretty sweet for them considering it costs less than half the price to manufacture there. No more cheap China escs, they know they can charge full price and get it

Hold up! This is HobbyWing not HobbyKing! HobbyWing makes top tier, high quality ESCs. Their ESCs have powered some of the fastest racers in the world, such as Atsushi Hara, to world championships. You get what you pay for with HobbyWing.

[Waitwhatsthat?]

I agree that hobbywing makes good products, but I also agree that esc ratings are unrealistic no matter the brand. There is no way a 12awg wire can carry 1200 Amps of current much less 100, 80, 60, or whatever. I was extremely confused by these ratings when I started in this hobby. Since then I have learned to just deal with it. You can't really compare a car starter motor due to the fact that the motor isn't designed to run continuously, like an rc car is. I guess an automotive alternator would be a better comparison. When I upgraded the alternator in my pickup to 120a, the manufacturer stated that I run a larger cable. I believe it was 4awg. I respect castle creations for not listing amp ratings with their esc's, and Instead listing them for intended purposes. So with all that said, the RC ratings are made up and shouldn't be considered truthful.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

[SwampDawg]

Also...these caps are supposed to carry any weight?? Lol
Take a 1 farad cap on an automotive audio for example.

Caution!! R/C is highly addictive!!

[Olle P]

Originally Posted by Waitwhatsthat?

... There is no way a 12awg wire can carry 1200 Amps of current...

According to the table in Wikipedia a 12AWG wire can handle up to 1kA for a full second and even 5.6kA for 32ms.
That's proof enough for me that it should be able to handle a couple of 1,200A bursts that lasts <5ms each as long as they don't come very often.

With a 12V feed (3S @ 4.0V/cell) the total resistance must be <10mohm to even reach 1.2kA. Is this even possible?
The wires are 20cm each, and during use the current has to pass four lengths of wire for a total (wire) resistance of 4.17mohm, less if the wires are shortened.
That leaves 6mohm for resistances in soldering points, motor and ESC. Quite doable.

Originally Posted by Waitwhatsthat?

... much less 100, 80, 60, or whatever. I was extremely confused by these ratings when I started in this hobby. Since then I have learned to just deal with it.

The most confusing part of it is that the ratings differ depending on intended use.
For R/C cars "continuous" lasts no more than some 5-10 seconds. A 12AWG wire can take 235A for 10s, so the 160A rating is no sweat.

And just to make things clear:
The wires are a non issue.
In this specific case the intended use (1:10 touring car) never gets close to the maximum rating. (More like 160A peak and <20A average.) The rating is there more to provide some indirect measure on how little power is lost between battery and motor. I bet that no serious race competitor will keep the provided wires anyway, but switch to 10AWG (or thicker) to reduce the resistance even further.

[JohnRobHolmes]

Originally Posted by Olle P

With a 12V feed (3S @ 4.0V/cell) the total resistance must be <10mohm to even reach 1.2kA. Is this even possible?
The wires are 20cm each, and during use the current has to pass four lengths of wire for a total (wire) resistance of 4.17mohm, less if the wires are shortened.
That leaves 6mohm for resistances in soldering points, motor and ESC. Quite doable.

Don't forget battery and plugs too. An average 4000 mah cell will be 2 to 3 mOhms x 3 cells series = 6mOhm on a good day. A totally bad ass 4 pole 550 motor capable of 3s will be about 2 mOhm, a 540 size around 4mOhm. Then we still have to account for battery wire and esc resistance and plugs, but we are already over budget on resistance.

Additionally, the lipo would need to hold enough voltage to keep the current flowing. A 6mOhm 3 cell battery at 1200 amps would hold 5.4v at the terminals hot off the charger. A bit saggy...

System inductance hasn't even been accounted for yet.

[svt923]

Originally Posted by Olle P

I bet that no serious race competitor will keep the provided wires anyway, but switch to 10AWG (or thicker) to reduce the resistance even further.

Other way around. Racers will end up swapping out the 12 gauge wire for something thinner to save a few grams, especially in the on-road classes. 12 gauge is probably the largest a racer will ever run and it even goes down to 16 gauge for 1/12 on-road racing. Resistance be damned when a couple grams can be lost.

[EddieO]

Originally Posted by JatoTheRipper

Hold up! This is HobbyWing not HobbyKing! HobbyWing makes top tier, high quality ESCs. Their ESCs have powered some of the fastest racers in the world, such as Atsushi Hara, to world championships. You get what you pay for with HobbyWing.

Hara has won one World Title in electric, with a Novak ESC. I can't recall any drivers winning worlds with a hobbywing branded ESC....a few have with Orion which are made by Hobbywing but is orions design...

Later EddieO

[JatoTheRipper]

Originally Posted by EddieO

Hara has won one World Title in electric, with a Novak ESC. I can't recall any drivers winning worlds with a hobbywing branded ESC....a few have with Orion which are made by Hobbywing but is orions design...

Later EddieO

Maybe Hara didn't win World titles with HobbyWing, but that wasn't my point. My point was that a legend like Hara chose to drive for HobbyWing so that says something.

Correct, HobbyWing was the OEM of the Orion ESCs. I have never seen any info stating that it was Orion's design, but I have read that the HobbyWing and Orion ESCs were sometimes the same except for the firmware.

My entire point is, you can't knock HobbyWing as Chinese junk and it was wrong to do so. They make some of the best.

[EddieO]

Hara chose Hobbywing because they were willing to pay him the most.....has nothing to do with it being the best....

Later EddieO

[JatoTheRipper]

Originally Posted by EddieO

Hara chose Hobbywing because they were willing to pay him the most.....has nothing to do with it being the best....

Later EddieO

Uh huh. Racers at his level want to win and, while they're going for money, they also want to be competitive. He isn't going to choose something that will make them DNF.

Do you not like HobbyWing?

[EddieO]

Originally Posted by JatoTheRipper

Hold up! This is HobbyWing not HobbyKing! HobbyWing makes top tier, high quality ESCs. Their ESCs have powered some of the fastest racers in the world, such as Atsushi Hara, to world championships. You get what you pay for with HobbyWing.

Originally Posted by JatoTheRipper

Uh huh. Racers at his level want to win and, while they're going for money, they also want to be competitive. He isn't going to choose something that will make them DNF.

Do you not like HobbyWing?

Sir, I used to pay the guys like Hara to run my products. Billy Easton, Mike Dumas, Ralph Burch, Chris Tosolini, etc among others all drove for me at one point. All national champs at least, with Billy Easton a former world champ like hara, as is Ralph Burch.

While winning factors in, a vast majority of these guys will take the biggest paycheck first....

To answer your question, I have nothing against hobbywing...they are not bad escs, they won't cause a guy like Hara to dnf....but I can guarantee you he chose them because they offered the most....not because he thought it would make him win more.

Later EddieO

[Olle P]

Originally Posted by svt923

Racers will ... save a few grams, ... Resistance be damned when a couple grams can be lost.

Not the one I've had contact with. When I purchased a (competition) used touring car last year I got with it a battery that was way overkill in terms of capacity and C rating (and thus extra weight) just to reduce the resistance.
I haven't used it in a while, but I'm pretty sure it used 10AWG battery leads as well.

Saving weight is done by using short leads, rather than thin.

[JatoTheRipper]

Originally Posted by EddieO

Sir, I used to pay the guys like Hara to run my products. Billy Easton, Mike Dumas, Ralph Burch, Chris Tosolini, etc among others all drove for me at one point. All national champs at least, with Billy Easton a former world champ like hara, as is Ralph Burch.

While winning factors in, a vast majority of these guys will take the biggest paycheck first....

To answer your question, I have nothing against hobbywing...they are not bad escs, they won't cause a guy like Hara to dnf....but I can guarantee you he chose them because they offered the most....not because he thought it would make him win more.

Later EddieO

Very cool!

I always go for the biggest paycheck so I don't blame them.

I just didn't want people unfamiliar with HobbyWing thinking they are low quality, Chinese products because of what was said earlier on this thread. HobbyWing makes killer products.

[MarvKern]

Hi everyone....as per my knowledge the hobbywing will pass 1200 amps, for a millisecond, with dead shorted motor leads , zero inductance, and infinite power supply. 0.00925 ohms for an entire system at 11.1v is simply not possible. The battery to supply it would be about 100 amp hours just to have low enough resistance. But who has the equipment to test their guarantee anyway? I do, but don't even have to. There isn't a 10th scale motor on the planet that will allow it, there isn't a rc battery on the planet that will supply it.

complete pcb

[EddieO]

Originally Posted by MarvKern

Hi everyone....as per my knowledge the hobbywing will pass 1200 amps, for a millisecond, with dead shorted motor leads , zero inductance, and infinite power supply. 0.00925 ohms for an entire system at 11.1v is simply not possible. The battery to supply it would be about 100 amp hours just to have low enough resistance. But who has the equipment to test their guarantee anyway? I do, but don't even have to. There isn't a 10th scale motor on the planet that will allow it, there isn't a rc battery on the planet that will supply it.

It appears John has a replicator

Later EddieO

[spunkysandoval]

Glad I ran into this thread. I've been out of the RC scene for a while and had no clue castle released a MMX with sensored capabilities. Just ordered one for my new RR10 Kit.