And brushless for all...

[CoolRunning]

Ha! Well, here is my brushless thread. lol

I've been agonising over how to affordably speed up my two Axial rigs. My requirements were really simple: increase wheel speed for my toy trucks so they aren't slow as a shuffling arthritic 80 year old and keep their crawling ability totally intact.

I was frankly a tad horrified at the prices to accomplish this seemingly simple task. It seemed to require sizable amounts of money just to make them reliably faster. Not crazy fast, just 50-100% faster. From extremely slow to just slow.

Brushed seemed to initially be the answer but turns out to be a bit of a bait and switch. You increase the cell count to say 3S to get more wheel speed but then you cook motors. Seemingly, the only way to get brushed reliable is to gear back down so that 50% increase in speed gets watered down to say 30% which is like grandpa was feeling a little more sprightly today. Ha! I think brushed is probably better for crazy low speed resolution and control. A killer comp setup or dedicated rock crawler which ours cars aren't. They are 20% rock crawler and 80% trail trucks though their prime directive is good crawling so they go anywhere. I don't care if they handle a bit funny with locked diffs and floppy suspension.

So I considered the MMP/Tekin or Holmes combo's which are very expensive when you're doing more than one rig (I needed two sets of electronics for my son and I) and then...the best bit...these setups have so much power that you quickly rip apart your rigs and have to spend hundreds more beefing them up.

I spent hours researching cheap brushless setups but nothing really was around.

One tired night after getting frankly a bit sick of it and figuring I'd just go the slow brushed route as it was all too expensive, I stumbled on my LHS's sale of Hobbywing.

Now I love HW from my time in the heli world and went 'wow', I've seemingly found the answer and am prepared to test it out. I could get a sensored brushless 4 pole motor AND 60A sensored 3S ESC with drag brake and punch control like a MMP, plus a 3300 Gens Ace lipo for less than the cost of a lone Tekin ROC motor. Yes it wouldn't be a well made but it was an experiment.

I knew it wouldn't have the torque of the Tekin ROC412 but all I wanted was more wheel speed. The rock climbing ability and the go anywhere trail potential of my trucks should still be there as the motor only had to compare to a crappy $5 Axial disposable brushed motor.

So I wired it all up and holy crap, is it not awesome.

With a 17.5T motor and 3S I probably have 2 1/2 times the wheel speed, more torque, better low control and the best bit, the motor and ESC run virtually cold.

I spent 30 minutes doing donuts and zooming around and then crawling as slow as possible over rocks and the motor got so pathetically warm it was amazing. My brushed motors would have been REALLY hot after the crawling.

It's not like an axle snapper as I've dialled the punch down so it goes better off the line than the brushed motor and like a turbo car starts spinning the wheels 1/2 second after moving like it's hitting boost (so it's nicer on the driveline) but it's still got more torque than stock.

For the money, it's hard to pass up IMO.

The two rigs don't cog and low speed control equals the brushed setup as well.

Hopefully this comes in handy for someone else in a similar situation.

It's the XERUN G2 motor and Juststock ESC combo for reference. They are basically for 1/10 onroad racers and apparently are very tolerant of high revs.

[mikemcE]

I dropped a "Gool" 2650 in a truck as a lark, WOW !! Best $24.00 I've spent. No name motors and esc's do work well just no brand recognition ......Jato has sung HW praises for years over castle


Hang up and Drive

[slowmethinks]

I have the Justock 60A and 21T Justock motor in my sons Bomber. Its perfect speed with really good low end resolution.

I have the new CC Mamba X and Tekin Roc412 3100Kv waiting to be soldered and installed in my Wraith. It will be interesting to see the difference between a $100 and $300 sensored setup.

[CoolRunning]

I believe the MMX+Roc412 setup is about $600. So I guess still 3 times the price.

I'd imagine the high end setup will be more powerful, torquey and more reliable but as for drivability and power I got exactly what I wanted already. If this rig is reliable I have zero interest in a more fancy setup as it drives better than stock and rips hard from standstill to all out drifting in dirt. It's a hoot and my son was super excited...I wasn't exactly frowning either! Lol

[CoolRunning]

Update:

Rigs were running great when my RR10 with the 21.5T (the SCX10 has the 17.5T) stopped and whilst curiously looking at it heard 'that sound'. Smoke started billowing out of the motor and there were some flames.

Ripped the lipo connectors apart but the motor is clearly toast. ESC wasn't exactly cold after the motor shorted out. I'd been zooming the RR10 around before for about 15 minutes checking the motor numerous times and it was basically just warm to the touch. ESC was cool too.

Major bummer.

I was cruising slowly over a few rocks at the time (as in some 1' high rocks and it was at the lowest throttle possible just easily cruising over them).

The SCX10 motor never got over warm being caned and thrashed around for another solid hour. The ESC was mostly cold to just warm.

Not sure why it did this as all the connections were double checked and carefully soldered. The motor had an hours solid runtime I guess since installed. The ESC was programmed with the HW LCD programmer and was triple checked and tuned.

Pulled the driveshafts and checked everything (including gearbox/transfer case) for binding or issues and the driveline is smooth.

It might just have been a dud of a motor. Now to contact the hobby shop and try to get a replacement.

The motor is within spec for the car and ESC (both 3S compatible, 1/10 offroad ok with a => 17.5 motor). Again, nothing was over warm and way cooler than the brushed Axial setup.

I wonder if the ESC has been damaged or was part of the problem...hmm...

[durok]

Thanks for posting your experiences - even though you had a bad one.

May well be just luck of the draw, keep us posted as to your findings as it's great to hear of less expensive options, especially for people starting out and disliking brushed motors constant maintenance requirements.

[redemon]

Seems the cheaper stuff is hit or miss.
The next motor you get will probably work like a charm

[351Beno]

[QUOTE=CoolRunning;5670061]I believe the MMX+Roc412 setup is about $600. So I guess still 3 times the price.

Not sure how much it is in the outback but in the usa its 300 for that combo all day and best money spent. I have two roc412 and mmp setups I got everything used. I paid 60 for one motor 80 for the other and mmp between 50 to 80 each. I just keep an eye open for deals.

[CoolRunning]

Hobbywing isn't cheap and nasty stuff. I've used them for 4 years with helis and helis seriously tax an ESC and lipo. Like get a good quality lipo and deplete it in 3 minutes to 3.7v. Their ESC's have taken this stuff for hundreds of batteries and have been smashed into the ground again and again and again without a hiccup.

I personally have had a lot of faith in the brand. I myself have less faith in Castle to be honest. Castles have had some major teething problems in the heli game with their BEC's and ESCs. I've seen as many be reliable as I have seen cook and play up.

Hobbywing's have had a reputation like a Russian military weapon...robust and effect but no bells and whistles. They seem to have far better tuning now which is great.

Turns out to be the ESC. The motor was replaced and the HW wholesaler said they hardly see any of the motors back.

Naturally I put in the new motor and within 1 1/2 seconds it arc'd and I switched off the power. Magic smoke again came out of the new motor.

I'm taking the lot in to the LHS tomorrow; hopefully the wholesaler replaces the ESC and motor and I get a new setup.

[CoolRunning]

I crawled the SCX10 quite a lot really slowly tonight up and down a big dirt mound which is tricky and I could warm up the ESC and motor. ESC never got hot but was nicely warm. Probably 45 degrees after 10 solid minutes of very slow crawling at about as steep an incline as the SCX10 can get up. After zooming the car around at max speed the ESC quickly cooled down to just barely warm. Motor was about 45 degrees (all in Celcius) as well...ambient temp was 25C.

Like the stock brushed motors, crawling does seem to stress the power system though I'm on 3S lipo compared to 6 cell NiMh so I think this is reasonable. It's probably the same as the stock motor/ESC in regards to heat for crawling but naturally can easily go twice as fast.

I admit to being a touch gun shy atm so I'm taking temps ever minute or two which is a pain. Don't want to deal with another fried setup. Hopefully it'll all end up reliable.

I wonder if the Bomber ESC was just unlucky or if 60A for the ESC was simply a tad optimistic...it never got hot but maybe it just popped due to the slow load of crawling...

[rngrchad]

I wonder if that esc would handle 4s power. Thats the main problem with the cheaper priced esc motor combos is they all seem to be very limited when it comes to input voltage.

[CoolRunning]

Ok...last update...hopefully...

SCX10 is going well. Motor and ESC seem happy and the SCX10 goes great on 3S. Really cool little truck now. I'm hoping it stays that way for a while (fingers crossed the ESC stays alive).

The RR10 killed the first ESC, burned two motors and with a new 120A HW, basically went forwards and then backwards in my living room, beeped and that was it.

It was time to cut my losses as it was getting ridiculous at this point so I picked up a Losi Rock Rey. Killer rock racer thus far.

My op of HW has naturally plummeted.

I even pulled the gearbox apart on the RR10 and it was dead smooth. Everything is A1 with the car as it's basically stock. Just unlucky I think.

[JatoTheRipper]

I love the thread title!

As you stated, HobbyWing is high quality stuff. Either you are having a horrible string of back luck or something else is going on in my opinion. The odds of having that much bad luck is probably along the lines of winning the lottery. I think something else is going on. Your Bomber shouldn't kill any 120A ESC in your living room.

[Rjohn929]

I agree, you must have something else going on. HW stuff is top notch, although I don't use much of it a lot of the guys around here do. Very few problems at all.

[Ty@Tekin]

Originally Posted by CoolRunning

I believe the MMX+Roc412 setup is about $600. So I guess still 3 times the price.

A ROC412 retails for $140 and a MMX about the same, so you're under $300. I totally understand the budget thing, I have to stay within my means in the 1:1 car world and that usually means buying cheaper items than big brand names sometimes. However, over the last 10 years and by completely ruining a car and my checkbook once, I try to save up and buy good stuff now that has support. Run what you can afford, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that and you're still having fun with RC. That's what really matters in the end.

[JatoTheRipper]

Originally Posted by Ty@Tekin

A ROC412 retails for $140 and a MMX about the same, so you're under $300. I totally understand the budget thing, I have to stay within my means in the 1:1 car world and that usually means buying cheaper items than big brand names sometimes. However, over the last 10 years and by completely ruining a car and my checkbook once, I try to save up and buy good stuff now that has support. Run what you can afford, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that and you're still having fun with RC. That's what really matters in the end.

I don't think he's talking US dollars.

[mikemcE]

Thought he wanted 2, also for his son ?


Hang up and Drive

[CoolRunning]

Hey guys I'm in Aus and the Roc412+MMP is about $450-500 plus shipping and I needed two of each.

I've been building Helis and wiring up stuff for ages. The drivetrain was smooth and the first ESC worked great for at least a few batteries. I quintuple check wiring and joints and programming. Seriously I am anal about this stuff as one mistake is costly with helis.

Shop thought it could have been the servo but it works fine with the old ESC and BEC and I tried another servo.

Just my personal POV but I felt the ESC was tiny and the load on 3S was too much going part throttle back and forwards with the tiny undersized FETs switching like mad.

ESC's switch at maximum load at part throttle with brushless and the FETs do all the heavy lifting.

I think these ESC's are for wide open racing.

The SCX10 ESC loves going flat out and actually cools down in seconds where it doesn't like the crawling as much.

I plugged in the brushed setup after and it just works fine.

The SCX with the original setup is going like a champ.

I'm not sure what was going on but I'll get dedicated crawler components next time. The LHS felt crawler specific stuff was imperative as a sensored ESC/motor combo designed to handle that tough low load workload would be built to handle the heat and back EMF stuff where the motor stops and the ESC is trying to get a motor to turn between poles as this would be where all the stress was generated.

Basically there are loads of ESCs that can tolerate wide open throttle where the FETS aren't switching like mad but there is basically not much in the sensored brushless realm outside Tekin and Castle that seem to live under the stressful conditions a crawler generates.

They felt that these ESC's were really reliable in racing circles. Lots of airflow, FETs are not switching like crazy and a smaller ESC does well. These little Hobbywings were tiny.

[Hardcoretam]

That's a shame with how it ended up as i'd been watching this and had toyed with similar ideas myself.
I thought amp draw was the only factor in what would be a problem when using a cheap sensored ESC for crawling

I wonder if the Turnigy or Hobbyking ones are any better or worse.

[MattySlimz1987]

Originally Posted by CoolRunning

Hey guys I'm in Aus and the Roc412+MMP is about $450-500 plus shipping and I needed two of each.

I've been building Helis and wiring up stuff for ages. The drivetrain was smooth and the first ESC worked great for at least a few batteries. I quintuple check wiring and joints and programming. Seriously I am anal about this stuff as one mistake is costly with helis.

Shop thought it could have been the servo but it works fine with the old ESC and BEC and I tried another servo.

Just my personal POV but I felt the ESC was tiny and the load on 3S was too much going part throttle back and forwards with the tiny undersized FETs switching like mad.

ESC's switch at maximum load at part throttle with brushless and the FETs do all the heavy lifting.

I think these ESC's are for wide open racing.

The SCX10 ESC loves going flat out and actually cools down in seconds where it doesn't like the crawling as much.

I plugged in the brushed setup after and it just works fine.

The SCX with the original setup is going like a champ.

I'm not sure what was going on but I'll get dedicated crawler components next time. The LHS felt crawler specific stuff was imperative as a sensored ESC/motor combo designed to handle that tough low load workload would be built to handle the heat and back EMF stuff where the motor stops and the ESC is trying to get a motor to turn between poles as this would be where all the stress was generated.

Basically there are loads of ESCs that can tolerate wide open throttle where the FETS aren't switching like mad but there is basically not much in the sensored brushless realm outside Tekin and Castle that seem to live under the stressful conditions a crawler generates.

They felt that these ESC's were really reliable in racing circles. Lots of airflow, FETs are not switching like crazy and a smaller ESC does well. These little Hobbywings were tiny.

I have been watching this also, curious to see what we could get away with and could save $ where needed. But I guess thats why everything has a price and why certain esc's are "purpose built". I think you nailed it on the head when you said that this certain esc is designed for wide open racing. Im sorry about your luck and you live and learn. We thankfully had you to share your experience with us so that the next person who thinks of the idea can come back and read this and make their decision from there.