Go Back   RCCrawler Forums > RCCrawler General Tech > Electronics
Loading

Notices

Thread: Hobbywing Xerun AXE

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-30-2018, 11:35 PM   #241
Rock Crawler
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Zagreb, Croatia
Posts: 569
Default Re: Hobbywing Xerun AXE

Looks squarewave to me!
Ninomaniac is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 05-31-2018, 05:52 AM   #242
owner, Holmes Hobbies LLC
 
JohnRobHolmes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Volt up! Gear down!
Posts: 20,158
Default Re: Hobbywing Xerun AXE

I’ll be doing side by side tests on monolith and rip rap in a few hours, with my video guy taking footage. A storm is coming so I won’t be able to run through full packs, but I’ll start with fresh batteries and see how much they recharge.
JohnRobHolmes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2018, 06:23 AM   #243
I wanna be Dave
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: PA
Posts: 10,378
Default Re: Hobbywing Xerun AXE

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rekreant View Post
They arent claiming that its the same as everything else, they are CLEARLY saying that its the best thing on the market, never before seen! Watch / read all the promotional stuff. I get that you accept lying in marketing as inescapable but in most peoples eyes that is not a valid excuse. If they were saying they were just as good as the competition no one would be complaining. They are claiming to have created the best thing since sliced bread.
Well it would be odd for a company to release a new system and not claim it was the best!

Come on now. Let's be realistic. Most people, in their right mind, don't buy into marketing hype. I know I don't. Marketing, by definition, is to fluff up a product and make it look good for the consumer. And you nor I can prove that HobbyWing is lying about anything in this ESC so...
JatoTheRipper is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2018, 06:30 AM   #244
Rock Crawler
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Zagreb, Croatia
Posts: 569
Default Re: Hobbywing Xerun AXE

There's a difference between calling your new car model "the coolest EVAR" and claiming it's turbocharged when it's not.
Ninomaniac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2018, 06:36 AM   #245
Rock Crawler
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: USA
Posts: 792
Default Re: Hobbywing Xerun AXE

Just watch the hobbywing official vid side by side with 1967illas video; Its very telling in how differently the system performs.
Rekreant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2018, 06:54 AM   #246
owner, Holmes Hobbies LLC
 
JohnRobHolmes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Volt up! Gear down!
Posts: 20,158
Default Re: Hobbywing Xerun AXE

Looks like I'm getting rained out for vids today, but tomorrow is clear weather and my camera man is available. That is actually good news, as I'll be able to try and drain the battery packs fully and see how the runtime compares. Spent some time tuning the ESC via the bluetooth app this morning, reversing the direction for the TRX, adjusting throttle and drag ramp.

The throttle response is very lacking at the most aggressive ramp setting. Kinda surprising since it is sensor based. It has a slow ramp up compared to even a SW4 sensorless system.
JohnRobHolmes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2018, 07:06 AM   #247
I wanna be Dave
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Raleigh-ish vicinity
Posts: 3,187
Default Re: Hobbywing Xerun AXE

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninomaniac View Post
There's a difference between calling your new car model "the coolest EVAR" and claiming it's turbocharged when it's not.
Yeah, that is the main point. FOC is a specific method of motor control, not just marketing BS. If they would have called it "Hobbywing Motion Control" or some other made up name, no one would have batted an eye.
svt923 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2018, 07:26 AM   #248
I wanna be Dave
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: PA
Posts: 10,378
Default Re: Hobbywing Xerun AXE

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninomaniac View Post
There's a difference between calling your new car model "the coolest EVAR" and claiming it's turbocharged when it's not.
What did HobbyWing lie about?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rekreant View Post
Just watch the hobbywing official vid side by side with 1967illas video; Its very telling in how differently the system performs.
How so?
JatoTheRipper is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2018, 07:37 AM   #249
MSH
Pebble Pounder
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: belgium, roeselare
Posts: 184
Default Re: Hobbywing Xerun AXE

Field Oriented Control.
MSH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2018, 07:57 AM   #250
owner, Holmes Hobbies LLC
 
JohnRobHolmes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Volt up! Gear down!
Posts: 20,158
Default Re: Hobbywing Xerun AXE

I can say with high confidence (right now, lol) that it is not true FOC since the drive signal is not matched to the motor bEMF. Matching the bEMF is really the entire point of FOC, even "basic" closed loop sensored FOC. Otherwise the rotor and stator flux is not orthogonally aligned and we fail to meet the entire criteria of FOC. The transition from high to low duty is far too linear when compared to the motor bEMF. At half throttle it is exactly 6 cycles low, 3 cycles linear duty rise, 6 cycles high, 3 cycles linear duty fall, 6 cycles low, etc... There simply is no Park transformation going on. It's a little more refined than 6 step commutation with a 14khz A/C carrier frequency overlaid to slap the motor into a synchronous speed, but it falls short of meeting the criteria that every other closed loop FOC system demonstrates.


I'm really trying to stretch the definitions of FOC to make the system fit. The hardware looks completely capable of closed loop FOC (sensored only operation, no active sensorless feedback), which is probably why they are calling it FOC. But somewhere along the path of development they stopped short of fleshing out the commutation table into nice sine waves and simply jammed a trapazoid rise and fall around block commutation. I'm super puzzled about this. Maybe it was "good enough" to run and they didn't think anyone would look into how accurate the attempt was?
JohnRobHolmes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2018, 08:10 AM   #251
RCC Addict
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: High desert Cali
Posts: 1,453
Default Re: Hobbywing Xerun AXE

[QUOTE=Frank211;5835983]
Quote:
Originally Posted by durok View Post
You mean like a Turnigy GliderDrive?

It's probably just the microphone in the recording.

Until someone runs them back-to-back with the same audio equipment, we can't really compare them yet.

https://hobbyking.com/en_us/turnigy-...-5-1400kv.html

"Outrunner in a can"

[/QUOTlike]


I did not know about this motor. Would like to hear that motor ! (I learn something new everyday)


After watching the different vids, IT does not sound like a outrunner motor. I guess the mic made it sound like that.
Frank211 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2018, 08:20 AM   #252
RCC Addict
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,459
Default Re: Hobbywing Xerun AXE

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnRobHolmes View Post
I can say with high confidence (right now, lol) that it is not true FOC since the drive signal is not matched to the motor bEMF. Matching the bEMF is really the entire point of FOC, even "basic" closed loop sensored FOC. Otherwise the rotor and stator flux is not orthogonally aligned and we fail to meet the entire criteria of FOC. The transition from high to low duty is far too linear when compared to the motor bEMF. At half throttle it is exactly 6 cycles low, 3 cycles linear duty rise, 6 cycles high, 3 cycles linear duty fall, 6 cycles low, etc... There simply is no Park transformation going on. It's a little more refined than 6 step commutation with a 14khz A/C carrier frequency overlaid to slap the motor into a synchronous speed, but it falls short of meeting the criteria that every other closed loop FOC system demonstrates.


I'm really trying to stretch the definitions of FOC to make the system fit. The hardware looks completely capable of closed loop FOC (sensored only operation, no active sensorless feedback), which is probably why they are calling it FOC. But somewhere along the path of development they stopped short of fleshing out the commutation table into nice sine waves and simply jammed a trapazoid rise and fall around block commutation. I'm super puzzled about this. Maybe it was "good enough" to run and they didn't think anyone would look into how accurate the attempt was?
I know this must be wayyy more complex than i see it but since hobbywing is already big in the racing and bashing markets, they should offer a partnership with you.
Holmes Hobbies designs the most badass and complete ESC / Motor combo then hobbywing uses it's manufacturing power in China to produce it.
Boom! Market cornered and profits!


Maybe you have an engineering batch AXE system and they will tune it with your reviews

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk
Jboucher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2018, 08:44 AM   #253
owner, Holmes Hobbies LLC
 
JohnRobHolmes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Volt up! Gear down!
Posts: 20,158
Default Re: Hobbywing Xerun AXE

If they want to tune it to my liking, it won't be pretty. I'm really trying to like this throttle. I'm trying so hard to not tell yall how much I hate the "velocity loop". They have done something unique, and that has a lot of merit. But 16 years of crawling on "regular" PWM voltage throttle response has engrained so much into my head and finger. If the crawling isn't tough, it feels great. But the moment there is any sort of hard bind, its effing annoying. No control over torque delivery at even the smallest amounts of throttle. It's simply trying to break my rig without my consent, and I'm having a really hard time getting past this.


Enough chit chat for now, back to work for me
JohnRobHolmes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2018, 08:54 AM   #254
I wanna be Dave
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: PA
Posts: 10,378
Default Re: Hobbywing Xerun AXE

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnRobHolmes View Post
I can say with high confidence (right now, lol) that it is not true FOC since the drive signal is not matched to the motor bEMF. Matching the bEMF is really the entire point of FOC, even "basic" closed loop sensored FOC. Otherwise the rotor and stator flux is not orthogonally aligned and we fail to meet the entire criteria of FOC. The transition from high to low duty is far too linear when compared to the motor bEMF. At half throttle it is exactly 6 cycles low, 3 cycles linear duty rise, 6 cycles high, 3 cycles linear duty fall, 6 cycles low, etc... There simply is no Park transformation going on. It's a little more refined than 6 step commutation with a 14khz A/C carrier frequency overlaid to slap the motor into a synchronous speed, but it falls short of meeting the criteria that every other closed loop FOC system demonstrates.


I'm really trying to stretch the definitions of FOC to make the system fit. The hardware looks completely capable of closed loop FOC (sensored only operation, no active sensorless feedback), which is probably why they are calling it FOC. But somewhere along the path of development they stopped short of fleshing out the commutation table into nice sine waves and simply jammed a trapazoid rise and fall around block commutation. I'm super puzzled about this. Maybe it was "good enough" to run and they didn't think anyone would look into how accurate the attempt was?
So can this be changed with software or is there "missing" hardware to accomplish what you want?
JatoTheRipper is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2018, 09:31 AM   #255
Rock Crawler
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Tifton
Posts: 581
Default Re: Hobbywing Xerun AXE

After reading John's take on it I wont be stocking them in my store. Nope. Just aint gonna do it.
Thanks John
redemon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2018, 09:36 AM   #256
owner, Holmes Hobbies LLC
 
JohnRobHolmes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Volt up! Gear down!
Posts: 20,158
Default Re: Hobbywing Xerun AXE

I would assume they could get it close with just software changes. A modification to the lookup table would do it, but each motor kV will have a unique table to adapt to the resistance and inductance. Assuming real FOC is the end goal... Not a big deal to store that information in the controller, it's a brute force method that will limit how many motors will be compatible. Since this is closed loop and already not matching the bEMF, it can be assumed they also skipped over phase amp monitoring, which steers us away from any active formula based commutation being possible. In a nutshell, they have a system that works with one generic waveform and don't have much incentive to go the last mile. By all tests, this still fails to meet the criteria of a properly implemented closed loop FOC.
JohnRobHolmes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2018, 09:40 AM   #257
owner, Holmes Hobbies LLC
 
JohnRobHolmes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Volt up! Gear down!
Posts: 20,158
Default Re: Hobbywing Xerun AXE

Quote:
Originally Posted by redemon View Post
After reading John's take on it I wont be stocking them in my store. Nope. Just aint gonna do it.
Thanks John

I wouldn't go so far as to tell people to stay away, as this is simply my opinion on the system. There may be a lot of folks that like the way the throttle feels, even though I don't. I would ask that you wait for the videos before making a decision, as I will be able to put all this information into a succinct summary.
JohnRobHolmes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2018, 09:45 AM   #258
Rock Crawler
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Tifton
Posts: 581
Default Re: Hobbywing Xerun AXE

But in my mind for that amount of money it just isnt worth it for me to sell it to someone else, when I can sell your motors to them and then a mamba x or something like that. Idk. Just my opinion anyway. If someone wants one I will for sure get them one. I just wont push it.
redemon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2018, 10:12 AM   #259
I wanna be Dave
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: PA
Posts: 10,378
Default Re: Hobbywing Xerun AXE

Quote:
Originally Posted by redemon View Post
But in my mind for that amount of money it just isnt worth it for me to sell it to someone else, when I can sell your motors to them and then a mamba x or something like that. Idk. Just my opinion anyway. If someone wants one I will for sure get them one. I just wont push it.
One thread on the internet has swayed you enough to not carry a product? I mean you don't even wait for a hands on test?
JatoTheRipper is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2018, 10:47 AM   #260
XXXXXXXXXXXXX
 
durok's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Austin
Posts: 3,746
Default Re: Hobbywing Xerun AXE

RPP Hobbies has the Axe ESC and the 3 lower-kv motor options, along with combos up for pre-order now.

I still find it interesting that the higher kv version of the motor is not part of the initial release...
durok is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply



Hobbywing Xerun AXE - Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Hobbywing Xerun SCT norcallump Electronics 4 09-22-2015 11:17 AM
hobbywing 150a xerun esc on 2s lipo jvh22a Electronics 1 06-03-2015 09:52 PM
Hobbywing xerun 3656 3400kv Gvm23 Electronics 26 01-30-2014 01:23 PM
Hobbywing xerun SCT pro Cmarcan167 Electronics 3 01-18-2014 11:11 AM
Hobbywing Xerun Sensored brushless combo. Neeley Electronics 2 01-20-2012 04:47 AM
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:43 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.
Copyright 2004-2014 RCCrawler.com