Hobbywing Xerun AXE

[JohnRobHolmes]

If there is a firmware update that changes how the system drives, I would absolutely love to give it another test. Keep me in mind, Charlie. And tell your account manager to stop being lazy and respond to my application for being an official reseller, lol! I've been trying for years and finally got an email back and sent in all the required information, and then never got that final OK.

[JohnRobHolmes]

reference numbers for later. 281, 229, 400.

[Rekreant]

Originally Posted by JohnRobHolmes

reference numbers for later. 281, 229, 400.

Should get your products on Tower so we can easy pay those super high end motors and escs <3

[calcagno45]

Great video JRH. Nice comparisons there to really show off the differences. Keep amazed at the Revolver’s low speed tho, should have picked one up long time ago.

Originally Posted by Rekreant

Should get your products on Tower so we can easy pay those super high end motors and escs <3

PayPal credit does the same if you need to.

[JatoTheRipper]

Good video, Holmes!

The lack of torque control really concerns me like it does you. I need that feedback out on a trail. Since you are not sitting inside the scale crawler and you don't have the seat of your pants sensors you need some feedback. Definitely a huge concern for me and that, alone, has me contemplating cancelling my order.

I have lots of questions. I hope you oblige - at least some of them.

1. You stated you were using expo on the other systems. Did you have expo set on the AXE system? The abrupt startup is another big concern.
2. Which Revolver motor were you using with the Sidewinder 4 - the regular or stubby? That motor is so impressive and I'm going to need to pick one up. Do you still say the SV4 has better sensorless control than the X series of ESCs?
3. If you had to choose one system for all around trailing fun with non-competition scale crawling, which system would you choose?
4. Why are your rear Voodoo KLRs on backwards?
5. How did you get your Mamba X to be so smooth? Mine isn't that smooth with a brushed motor. Startup seems more abrupt than your brushless setup.

[MaFoDes]

Well then… After all the praises and Hallelujah for you (John Rob) doing this video, allow me to lay down a critical note.
I just don't think that a seller who makes whiskey, should do a comparison including his own whiskey.
In all respect... And i love my HH's stuff. But i get the feeling you are really looking for things to complain about in a very American style. So stabbing with a knife while saying sorry, stabbing again while saying did i do that? i'm so sorry and again and again. At one point you say something about the torque that the HW is hard to control there and such is negative. Where minutes later you tell very proud about the HH revolver motor which has huge torque, almost hard to master. Sounds like preaching for your own church.

I just don’t think it should have been you doing this video. There is no way in hell you can be unbiased as it is your daily bread to create and sell electronics that make our Rc life so much better.

Maybe it’s my simple european peasant wit. But if you really wanted to do a fair comparison, you would have added the RX4 to the equation. Gather the “big 4”!

You know the Ble pro for a long time, just like the Castle. You probably have 'm finetuned just the way you want them to be. So it is easy to pick on something unfamiliar.

I did spend this afternoon driving my No1 rig with the HW. Then took it out and installed my beloved HH BLE pro and Puller pro motor and i found the pick up on the HW just that tad smoother. Both were on totally stock settings. Sure, you might say the Ble will perform better with adjusted settings. But maybe, just maybe that also goes for the HW?

Personally i don't trust any esc for doing a job for me. I don’t trust my Tekin, i don’t trust a Castle, i don’t trust a Holmes and i also don’t trust the Hobbywing. Either if it is warning me that the driveline is binding because of some obstacle or else. Yet i do trust my own eyes. I will never be further away then 3 feet from my car, carefully watching the driveline and tires. In the end it still is the drivers responsibility and skills to judge a line and see how tires and driveline are reacting to something.

No, i am not paid (unfortunately lol) for promoting this stuff. I knew HW was working on this combo already early 2017. I kept on bugging them for more info during the last year. Guess i was like that kid with christmas when i heard it was coming and i could have one first. But i also sure as hell have some critical notes on the HW.

Yet, i still believe there is a market for this HW and it has a right to exist. Hobbywing has a legacy in electronics and is still the No1 in some parts of rc. And i fully agree it is very much overpriced compared to the Mamba-X. Spoke to a Castle rep' the other day and he agreed helping me setting the X up the most perfect way.

Until that moment: crawl on!

[MSH]

I think you need to learn english, he said he doesn't like how it applies torque, that's very different from how much torque it has or hasn't.

[Col_Sanders]

Jato, a good throttle curve on the X will give the kind of startup he was showing, as will playing with expo. My throttle curve is set so that about the first ~30% of trigger movement only gives me maybe 10% throttle, then its a linear curve the rest of the way. That gives me really good low end control without being twitchy.

[Rekreant]

Originally Posted by MSH

I think you need to learn english, he said he doesn't like how it applies torque, that's very different from how much torque it has or hasn't.

To be fair, dude is from the netherlands.

[MSH]

To be fair, i'm from Belgium. I learned english all by myself.

[2mtech]

My cynical, distrusting nature would normally lead me to agree with MaFoDes's statement that the opinions of a manufacturer of a particular product conducting a head-to-head comparison of their own product to those of their competitor's should be taken with the proverbial grain of salt.

However, I've read and watched enough material from John Rob (who, fortunately for us, has no problem discoursing sufficiently to make sure his message is thoroughly conveyed) to feel fairly confident that he is fully capable of conducting such comparisons without prejudice. He's a businessman, sure, but he was and continues to be a hobbyist at heart. He's equally quick to point out and praise competitor's strengths and innovations as their failings, shortcuts and marketing shuck-n-jive.

I buy HH products because I believe he believes in what he designs and manufactures, and his business acumen...and everything I've ordered from Columbia, Missouri WORKS, and damn well. The company I work for is currently suffering greatly from the recent tariffs imposed on importing outsourced Chinese goods, and I try to support businesses that did not follow the masses sending work offshore; much easier to do that when those businesses produce a high quality, high performing product.

Nothing I've read or watched so far makes me want to rush online and order this system, but of course there remains to be a lot of input from operators and reviewers without a dog in the fight.

But then again, who can tell who really doesn't anymore?

[Rekreant]

Not to mention he CLEARLY states that the Mamba X, a direct competitor for his product, performs better on the low end. I dont know how much more unbiased he could be...

[Rekreant]

Originally Posted by calcagno45

PayPal credit does the same if you need to.

I dont know why, but paypal hates me and wont let me use it.

[MasteroFlego]

Originally Posted by Rekreant

Not to mention he CLEARLY states that the Mamba X, a direct competitor for his product, performs better on the low end. I dont know how much more unbiased he could be...

Facts aren't biased. If he said he feels that it's better, then it's an opinion.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

[durok]

Originally Posted by MaFoDes

Well then… After all the praises and Hallelujah for you (John Rob) doing this video, allow me to lay down a critical note.
I just don't think that a seller who makes whiskey, should do a comparison including his own whiskey.
In all respect... And i love my HH's stuff. But i get the feeling you are really looking for things to complain about in a very American style. So stabbing with a knife while saying sorry, stabbing again while saying did i do that? i'm so sorry and again and again. At one point you say something about the torque that the HW is hard to control there and such is negative. Where minutes later you tell very proud about the HH revolver motor which has huge torque, almost hard to master. Sounds like preaching for your own church.

I just don’t think it should have been you doing this video. There is no way in hell you can be unbiased as it is your daily bread to create and sell electronics that make our Rc life so much better.

Maybe it’s my simple european peasant wit. But if you really wanted to do a fair comparison, you would have added the RX4 to the equation. Gather the “big 4”!

You know the Ble pro for a long time, just like the Castle. You probably have 'm finetuned just the way you want them to be. So it is easy to pick on something unfamiliar.

I did spend this afternoon driving my No1 rig with the HW. Then took it out and installed my beloved HH BLE pro and Puller pro motor and i found the pick up on the HW just that tad smoother. Both were on totally stock settings. Sure, you might say the Ble will perform better with adjusted settings. But maybe, just maybe that also goes for the HW?

Personally i don't trust any esc for doing a job for me. I don’t trust my Tekin, i don’t trust a Castle, i don’t trust a Holmes and i also don’t trust the Hobbywing. Either if it is warning me that the driveline is binding because of some obstacle or else. Yet i do trust my own eyes. I will never be further away then 3 feet from my car, carefully watching the driveline and tires. In the end it still is the drivers responsibility and skills to judge a line and see how tires and driveline are reacting to something.

No, i am not paid (unfortunately lol) for promoting this stuff. I knew HW was working on this combo already early 2017. I kept on bugging them for more info during the last year. Guess i was like that kid with christmas when i heard it was coming and i could have one first. But i also sure as hell have some critical notes on the HW.

Yet, i still believe there is a market for this HW and it has a right to exist. Hobbywing has a legacy in electronics and is still the No1 in some parts of rc. And i fully agree it is very much overpriced compared to the Mamba-X. Spoke to a Castle rep' the other day and he agreed helping me setting the X up the most perfect way.

Until that moment: crawl on!

No one said the HW AXE system had no right to exist.

Anyone that has the new HW system can review it, there's no one stopping anyone - You just gave us your review, as limited as it was in information - as it was not being done on camera for us to see the results.

Why would you NOT want to hear from a knowledgeable source from within the RC electronics industry? There will be many other reviews to come, but few if any with the insight provided by an expert in electronic speed controls and electric motors. Car manufacturers often state "better fuel economy than brand X, faster acceleration than brand Y" and no one bats an eye!

No one says you must blindly follow the recommendations someone else gives, certainly - but by the same token NO ONE should say you are NOT ALLOWED to review a product and publish your results.

I know just because you are from the Netherlands, it doesn't mean there is no such thing as free speech.


BTW - I'm half-German (born there to a German mother and lived there for quite some time, still very close to my German relatives, and visit when I can), and even I found your comment "looking for things to complain about in a very American style. So stabbing with a knife while saying sorry, stabbing again while saying did i do that? i'm so sorry and again and again." extremely (and needlessly) offensive!

Earlier you said "In all respect..."

Well, you're not showing any with that sort of comment.


Also - JRH did NOT use his own ESC in the comparison.

The BLE Pro is an older-design ESC, based on a Castle product that has been completely redesigned some time ago. He used 2 recently released Castle Creations ESCs and the HobbyWing, which was more informative because the HobbyWing is brand new.

Ideally he could have included a Tekin RX4, but then you could argue "why were there no Castle motors, why no Tekin motors" (ad nauseum...) - The video review was already 45 minutes long - including all options could have made it several hours long, you have to draw the line somewhere.

I'm sure someone else will bring the rest of the competition into play in another review.

This is all fairly tiresome... Make your own decisions people - but by all means give a listen to those with some knowledge on the subject before throwing $250 at a brand new product. If you feel they are biased, find MORE reviews and listen to those.

Otherwise, spend your $250 and be a guinea pig yourself.

When all is said and done, my desire is for HobbyWing to fine-tune the product, make revisions, release firmware updates & higher-kv motors as part of the system, and eventually join the top-tier of rock-crawling/rock-racing speed control and brushless motor manufacturers AS THEY HAVE in other forms of RC competition.

Competition is GOOD for the consumer. Hell, I'll buy one then, as I have their nifty little QuicRun 1080 ESC.

I also hope JRH teams up with an ESC manufacturer again, be it Castle once more or WHOEVER - and provides design and engineering input for another Holmes Hobbies-branded ESC. It will likely have at a minimum - a quiet mode, no on/off button, and accept high-cell count LiPo batteries - all things we've shown as a community that we like in a product, yet include the newest advancements missing from the trusty older BLE Pro.

I'll definitely buy one of those as well!

I'm waiting patiently for these things to come to pass...

[JohnRobHolmes]

Originally Posted by JatoTheRipper

Good video, Holmes!

The lack of torque control really concerns me like it does you. I need that feedback out on a trail. Since you are not sitting inside the scale crawler and you don't have the seat of your pants sensors you need some feedback. Definitely a huge concern for me and that, alone, has me contemplating cancelling my order.

I have lots of questions. I hope you oblige - at least some of them.

1. You stated you were using expo on the other systems. Did you have expo set on the AXE system? The abrupt startup is another big concern.
2. Which Revolver motor were you using with the Sidewinder 4 - the regular or stubby? That motor is so impressive and I'm going to need to pick one up. Do you still say the SV4 has better sensorless control than the X series of ESCs?
3. If you had to choose one system for all around trailing fun with non-competition scale crawling, which system would you choose?
4. Why are your rear Voodoo KLRs on backwards?
5. How did you get your Mamba X to be so smooth? Mine isn't that smooth with a brushed motor. Startup seems more abrupt than your brushless setup.

1. The AXE does not have expo. I tuned the system for about an hour to get the startup speed as low as possible.
2. Revolver 540 1800kv. The stubby (snubnose now) actually starts up smoother and would run fine for the tests, but I typically choose "overpowered" in my rigs.
3. I would choose the Mamba X/ Puller Pro for a quiet system or if any more wheelspeed was wanted. If noise wasn't a concern (and in rigs with a two speed for getting wheelspeed), the SW4 and Revolver. I've been running the SW4 and Revolver a while and keep throwing it back in after testing other systems. I like the drive a lot.
4. The rock at the hobby house can be a little more aggressive in traction, so I turn the backs around sometimes to keep it from hooking too hard.
5. Throttle expo, high startup power, zero motor timing. Depends on what brushed motor you run. Something like a crawlmaster will start up as smooth or smoother. A TorqueMaster will have a bit of jump to the startup. Could also be hanging brushes.

Originally Posted by MaFoDes

Well then… After all the praises and Hallelujah for you (John Rob) doing this video, allow me to lay down a critical note.
I just don't think that a seller who makes whiskey, should do a comparison including his own whiskey.
In all respect... And i love my HH's stuff. But i get the feeling you are really looking for things to complain about in a very American style. So stabbing with a knife while saying sorry, stabbing again while saying did i do that? i'm so sorry and again and again. At one point you say something about the torque that the HW is hard to control there and such is negative. Where minutes later you tell very proud about the HH revolver motor which has huge torque, almost hard to master. Sounds like preaching for your own church.

I just don’t think it should have been you doing this video. There is no way in hell you can be unbiased as it is your daily bread to create and sell electronics that make our Rc life so much better.

Maybe it’s my simple european peasant wit. But if you really wanted to do a fair comparison, you would have added the RX4 to the equation. Gather the “big 4”!

You know the Ble pro for a long time, just like the Castle. You probably have 'm finetuned just the way you want them to be. So it is easy to pick on something unfamiliar.

I did spend this afternoon driving my No1 rig with the HW. Then took it out and installed my beloved HH BLE pro and Puller pro motor and i found the pick up on the HW just that tad smoother. Both were on totally stock settings. Sure, you might say the Ble will perform better with adjusted settings. But maybe, just maybe that also goes for the HW?

Personally i don't trust any esc for doing a job for me. I don’t trust my Tekin, i don’t trust a Castle, i don’t trust a Holmes and i also don’t trust the Hobbywing. Either if it is warning me that the driveline is binding because of some obstacle or else. Yet i do trust my own eyes. I will never be further away then 3 feet from my car, carefully watching the driveline and tires. In the end it still is the drivers responsibility and skills to judge a line and see how tires and driveline are reacting to something.

No, i am not paid (unfortunately lol) for promoting this stuff. I knew HW was working on this combo already early 2017. I kept on bugging them for more info during the last year. Guess i was like that kid with christmas when i heard it was coming and i could have one first. But i also sure as hell have some critical notes on the HW.

Yet, i still believe there is a market for this HW and it has a right to exist. Hobbywing has a legacy in electronics and is still the No1 in some parts of rc. And i fully agree it is very much overpriced compared to the Mamba-X. Spoke to a Castle rep' the other day and he agreed helping me setting the X up the most perfect way.

Until that moment: crawl on!

So what is your opinion on sponsored drivers giving 100% gushing reviews that don't include any hard driving or technical data? If review quality or trustworthyness is your main concern, then it only leaves us with common consumers doing reviews, and right now the only people doing reviews are asiatees sponsored drivers getting free products. And this, very predictably, has resulted in nothing but raving reviews with basic specs straight off hobbywings site. Do you fall into this category too? Are you sponsored by HW or asiatees? You say you have critical notes about the hobbywing, what are they and why haven't you discussed them yet?

I think there may be some language barrier in regards to the "torque" of the revolver. It does make massive torque (more than the other motors by far), but as I stated and showed in the video, it is completely controllable torque. I tell it exactly how much torque to lay down, and with no more difficulty than increasing or decreasing my throttle position.

In fairness of being unbiased as a retailer, I have tried for years to be a Hobbywing reseller too. I tried again recently and finally got through the application process (I got email responses back for the first time ever), and HW has yet again dropped the ball on getting it done.

Adding in a Tekin controller would have been great too, but I only had so much time and so many rigs to test in. There is 1000 combinations that could have been chosen. I chose similar products for rock crawling performance, with one sensored 4 pole and one sensorless making the cut. I would have chosen a Slate system but didn't have one available in the proper KV. It would have performed similar to the Puller Pro in regards to startup speed and downhill transitioning, so I feel the comparisons were about the best I could do in a short amount of time. The vid still turned out very long.


I tuned the hobbywing for about an hour using the bluetooth app before going crawling. The video is as good as I can possibly tune it, this was the smoothest I could get. But you bring up a good point about the BLE, mamba X, SW4, etc.. They are UNIVERSAL controllers that can sometimes get better performance with tuning. The AXE is a locked in system for Crawling, it only works on their motors. A customer should expect it to come with a good tune for crawling since that is the only application it is made for. If you need a better tune for your BLE, try zero timing, high startup power, 30% punch, smart sense, and throw an expo throttle curve with 20% at 50% throttle position. This is basically how the X and SW4 is tuned.

Originally Posted by Rekreant

Not to mention he CLEARLY states that the Mamba X, a direct competitor for his product, performs better on the low end. I dont know how much more unbiased he could be...

Originally Posted by MasteroFlego

Facts aren't biased. If he said he feels that it's better, then it's an opinion.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

It both FEELS better (more controllable, more tractable) and has empirically tested better resolution on the low end (lower startup speeds as directly shown in the vid, more throttle points as not directly shown). Both facts and opinions in regards to the low end of the Mamba X and SW4. A person can disagree on what is "better feel', surely. But there is no misinterpreting the startup resolution and control-ability shown in the video. The hobbywing starts up faster, no matter the situation.










We forgot to add in the pavement acceleration tests to the vid, so there will be another one released just covering that. The hobbywing spools up relatively slow through the whole RPM range. The SW4 and Mamba X systems were breaking traction right off the line and peeling out. Very large difference in how much power was being put down. If I had more time I would have compared against a TrailMaster Sport 550 motor too. The HW felt weaker on acceleration than a cheap brushed motor. This leads me back to asking what hobbywing is getting out of the encoders if they don't have acceleration or low speed control.

[JatoTheRipper]

Originally Posted by JohnRobHolmes

1. The AXE does not have expo. I tuned the system for about an hour to get the startup speed as low as possible.
2. Revolver 540 1800kv. The stubby (snubnose now) actually starts up smoother and would run fine for the tests, but I typically choose "overpowered" in my rigs.
3. I would choose the Mamba X/ Puller Pro for a quiet system or if any more wheelspeed was wanted. If noise wasn't a concern (and in rigs with a two speed for getting wheelspeed), the SW4 and Revolver. I've been running the SW4 and Revolver a while and keep throwing it back in after testing other systems. I like the drive a lot.
4. The rock at the hobby house can be a little more aggressive in traction, so I turn the backs around sometimes to keep it from hooking too hard.
5. Throttle expo, high startup power, zero motor timing. Depends on what brushed motor you run. Something like a crawlmaster will start up as smooth or smoother. A TorqueMaster will have a bit of jump to the startup. Could also be hanging brushes.

Thank you very much!

1. I thought you were using expo on the transmitters. It is extremely odd and concerning that the AXE doesn't have expo or some type of throttle curve control.
2. Awesome. The stub nose 1800kv is in stock at this point. The standard isn't.
3. I have a Mamba X and Puller Pro, but I'd like to try a Revolver at some point. Good to know that I'd need a 2-speed for wheel speed.
4. Makes sense!
5. The brushed motor I'm using with the Mamba X in my SCX10 II is a cheap, generic open end bell motor in 35T. I'm sure you've seen them from Gool RC, HobbyKing, Yeah Racing, etc.

Thanks again.

[JohnRobHolmes]

All the transmitters were stock. Expo on them does not work nearly as well as on the esc.

In regards to wheelspeed, it’s simply that the revolver tops out at 1800 kv and about 20krpm, while a 3500 Puller is faster and has a higher rpm rating. A two speed can equalize a lower kv into giving wheelspeed.

Cheap motor startup, or at least a motor that hasn’t been specifically built for crawling. Try a TrailMaster Sport when it wears out and you should find better luck if this isn’t your radio or esc tune causing it.

[MSH]

20Krpm, is that where you reach the ESC speed limit with the revolver?

[svt923]

Originally Posted by JohnRobHolmes

All the transmitters were stock. Expo on them does not work nearly as well as on the esc.

Is that because most radios don't allow the customization of the throttle curve or is there a more technical reason that causes the expo on the ESC side to be more effective?

I usually use the radio expo because I can make the adjustments on the fly and get the immediate feedback without having to stop and reprogram the ESC. Laziness may have a big part of it too.