Talk Me Out of Sensored Brushless for MOA??

[MailManX]

I've been into RC cars for 5 years. Early on, I fell in love with brushless motors. EVERY car I own has a brushless motor in it. I just love them! No muss, no fuss, just power galore! However, I've never had an MOA crawler, until now...

I just purchased the RC4WD Bully 2 "KIT" as my first MOA. I did it strictly for fun since my property is covered with granite boulders. Even though I won't be in competition, I have always preferred to buy the best equipment available to match each rig. In this case, I am just itching for some really wonderful, buttery smooth low speed start-up with gobs controllable torque.

As I have searched for the perfect setup, I have read LOTS of recommendations for BRUSHED motors on that rig. Is there seriously no brushless motor that can run like a brushed motor at low speed? Or, is it partly an ESC/Motor combination issue where there simply is not a good combination that can match the smooth low end of a brushed setup?

I'm not so stubborn that I cannot be reasoned with. If even the most purpose-built brushless crawler motors are not the best match for an MOA crawler, then I will concede and buy a pair of really nice hand-wound brushed motors, probably from Mr. Holmes. I am also drawn to his dual-mini ESC setup for brushed motors. Even so, the bias is strong with this one. If I'm gonna go brushed on this kit, I've really gotta be convinced that brushless will make my unhappy for this application.

Your advice is requested and appreciated!

[mikemcE]

Well I’m a Brushless Guy, across the board .
That and I also own a Bullyll. So it’s a no brainer ? The biggest issue is a dual esc for Brushless. Your talking large footprint, and you don’t have gobs of room on the skid. As you’ve seen and read the BRMD is the esc many run as it’s small, reliable , tunable . A pair of Holmes hand wound will make you the envy of many!



Hang up and Drive

[MasteroFlego]

There are few recommendations for it because you'll need two ESCs, otherwise there is no reason not to use sensored motors in a MOA rig. If I were you I would consider dual SW4s with holmes Revolvers. Or micro X's with puller pros.

Sent from my SM-G960W using Tapatalk

[MailManX]

Originally Posted by mikemcE

Well I’m a Brushless Guy, across the board .
That and I also own a Bullyll. So it’s a no brainer ? The biggest issue is a dual esc for Brushless. Your talking large footprint, and you don’t have gobs of room on the skid. As you’ve seen and read the BRMD is the esc many run as it’s small, reliable , tunable . A pair of Holmes hand wound will make you the envy of many!

Great looking rig! Thank you for the advice! I had not thought as far as brushless ESC's yet. I just assumed it's possible to buy small ones. You are definitely swaying me...

[Rekreant]

Holmes Hobbies Torquemaster Pro is better.

[MailManX]

Originally Posted by MasteroFlego

There are few recommendations for it because you'll need two ESCs, otherwise there is no reason not to use sensored motors in a MOA rig. If I were you I would consider dual SW4s with holmes Revolvers. Or micro X's with puller pros.

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I just spent some time looking at the brushed motors on the Holmes Hobbies website. There are so many possibilities! I think I'm leaning towards either a CRAWLMASTER PRO 550 (12T?) or a PULLER 500 TEAM (16T?). They are fairly close in price with the Puller being a bit more expensive. The main difference I can tell from reading the description is that the Puller is smaller and also has a skewed armature. I have no idea what difference a skewed armature makes.

Just for discussion sake, and certainly no offense to JonRobHolmes, but how are Brood motors in comparison to HH when looking at similar price-points?

[MailManX]

Originally Posted by Rekreant

Holmes Hobbies Torquemaster Pro is better.

Argh! See what I mean! Too many choices! I totally respect everyone's opinions, but I have no idea how to tell which is actually the best for my usage.

[MasteroFlego]

Originally Posted by MailManX

Argh! See what I mean! Too many choices! I totally respect everyone's opinions, but I have no idea how to tell which is actually the best for my usage.

Only way to find out is to buy something and decide if you like it

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[Rekreant]

I dont have a MOA, so take this with a grain of salt. I have the Trailmaster Sport, the Torquemaster Pro, and a Castle Slate 1900kv sensored. I also have a stock Axial, a stock Redcat, a stock Traxxas brushed, a goolRC brushless sensorless, and a Castle 2400kv Sensored green motor. Out of all of them for crawling the Torquemaster Pro is significantly better. The Castle slate is a solid second place, has a little bit more top end but has a much weaker drag break.

[MailManX]

Originally Posted by MasteroFlego

Only way to find out is to buy something and decide if you like it

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Oy! I've done that SO many times! I make a decent income, but if my wife had any idea what I've spent on my habit, I would be in really deep trouble! It would be bad enough if I was just into cars. However, I also have boats, quads, helicopters, a motorcycle and nearly 200 airplanes.

Hi, my name is Michael and I am an RC addict. I have been clean for... for... aw hell, I just bought something else today!

[Voodoobrew]

Make sure the 550 isn't too long. On my bully 2 somethings slightly narrower then ar60 550 motors would be in the way of links and reduce turning. Puller motors will produce lots of torque in a smaller can. Which will help in managing front wheel speed vs real wheel speed when loaded up.

[Rekreant]

Originally Posted by MailManX

Oy! I've done that SO many times! I make a decent income, but if my wife had any idea what I've spent on my habit, I would be in really deep trouble! It would be bad enough if I was just into cars. However, I also have boats, quads, helicopters, a motorcycle and nearly 200 airplanes.

Hi, my name is Michael and I am an RC addict. I have been clean for... for... aw hell, I just bought something else today!

If you have an active RC community or local facebook group maybe see if you can meet up with someone else with a similar setup, or willing to let you try a motor you want? This isnt an option for me personally cause I live in the middle of no where, but you might be able to try something that way.

[JohnRobHolmes]

A 550 motor won’t fit on the bully axle. A standard 540 will!


The Puller series of brushed motors uses neo magnets to reduce weight. The 400 series uses a shorter armature and magnet to further reduce weight. A good all around choice that isn’t too expensive is the crawlmaster series. 16t is a good starting point. If shaving a few ounces is a concern, the Puller 500 or 400 is the next step.


Brushless has a disadvantage in esc size and weight. In the wheelspeed a bully will use, brushed will have better drag and control. For best performance in a MOA, the choice is brushed hands down, and has been despite many advances in brushless motors and controllers.

[MailManX]

Originally Posted by JohnRobHolmes

A 550 motor won’t fit on the bully axle. A standard 540 will!

The Puller series of brushed motors uses neo magnets to reduce weight. The 400 series uses a shorter armature and magnet to further reduce weight. A good all around choice that isn’t too expensive is the crawlmaster series. 16t is a good starting point. If shaving a few ounces is a concern, the Puller 500 or 400 is the next step.

Brushless has a disadvantage in esc size and weight. In the wheelspeed a bully will use, brushed will have better drag and control. For best performance in a MOA, the choice is brushed hands down, and has been despite many advances in brushless motors and controllers.

Thank you, John! I didn't think about motor size being an issue, so I appreciate you pointing that out. I have made a firm decision to go brushed. I am, however, having trouble narrowing the field. It seems like each brushed motor type has some compromise (i.e. 5-slot has the smoothness but 3-slot has the strong drag brakes). It's just mean that the God of Electromechanics teases us this way. I am craving awesome smoothness with super strong drag brakes. But then, I'm also craving a crawler that can climb 95-degree slopes and do 60mph on the level while costing next to nothing! Ha, ha! I want it all, and I want it now!

I've been waiting for one of the Magnum series motors to go on sale for $29.99. Since that doesn't seem to be happening, I will likely get either a Crawlmaster Pro (5-slot) or a Torquemaster Pro (3-slot). Those are in my price range.

I have a question: If you were buying brushed motors for a 2.2 MOA, which of these two motors would you choose and why? THANKS!!

• 30T Torquemaster Pro 540 ($75)
• 13T Crawlmaster Pro 540 ($85)

[MailManX]

Originally Posted by Rekreant

Holmes Hobbies Torquemaster Pro is better.

As you can see from my post immediately above, I am leaning heavily towards that one. What is it that you like best about it?

[JohnRobHolmes]

In my own MOA, crawlmaster 13t. The smoothness far outweighs a slight loss in torque and drag brake.

[WHITE-TRASH]

I run 13 turn crawlmasters on 4s in my berg. Very happy with them. On a bully I'd keep the power very low to keep the gears and front shafts from grenading too often.

[Rekreant]

Originally Posted by MailManX

As you can see from my post immediately above, I am leaning heavily towards that one. What is it that you like best about it?

So before I got the TMPro I had the trailmaster. The difference between those two was so extreme I decided I wasnt gonna go lower than pro anymore. The torque was not only so much stronger, it was so damn smooth! It ran a lot cooler too. When I later got the Mamba Micro X slate combo, I figured I would switch for battery life and for more trailing since my local rocks were getting over run with weeds. Well it DID have a higher top speed, and had almost comparable torque, the smoothness was maybe a standard deviation lower. It was smooth sure, but of the slate was elastic fabric the torquemaster pro was silk. The application of the torque on the TMPro is just so consistent and measured; its precision incarnate. Brushless has its benefits, but having brushes make physical contact makes a major difference somehow.

[MailManX]

Originally Posted by JohnRobHolmes

In my own MOA, crawlmaster 13t. The smoothness far outweighs a slight loss in torque and drag brake.

That's good enough for me! Sorry Rekreant, no disrespect intended. Thank you for your sincere opinion!

John, Do you have an estimate for when more TORQUEMASTER BR MINI DUAL ESC's will be available? I'd prefer to order everything at once to save on shipping. If it's going to be a while, I'll just order two BR Mini's. That will work fine for me.

[Rekreant]

Originally Posted by MailManX

That's good enough for me! Sorry Rekreant, no disrespect intended. Thank you for your sincere opinion!

John, Do you have an estimate for when more TORQUEMASTER BR MINI DUAL ESC's will be available? I'd prefer to order everything at once to save on shipping. If it's going to be a while, I'll just order two BR Mini's. That will work fine for me.

No worries, I intend to get a crawlmaster pro in my next rig once I start building it.