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Old 08-03-2011, 07:49 PM   #61
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i am really curious why you think it hurt the car? was it the 8* or something else?

i am not challenging you just curious.

i dont think there would be a situation where one equiped with the 8* units would pull anything that one not equiped could...

the 8* units with some added castor should make manuverabilty a bit better...

also wheel offset is going to play with that scrub radius as well.
All the info and observations I have are all apples to oranges. I really dont know the benefits and thats why I was asking, it just does not make sense to me yet how it could be night and day difference.

Where we thought it might make a difference is reaching up and grabbing the ledge with the extra scrub on the inside sidewall.

Edit:

I just re read what you typed. Are you saying that you think its just maneuverability that is helped? If so can you explain what that means?

I suppose I could just put some on mine and figure it out. I just need time to do the knuckle weights though...

Last edited by Erik D_lux; 08-03-2011 at 07:51 PM.
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Old 08-03-2011, 08:33 PM   #62
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All the info and observations I have are all apples to oranges. I really dont know the benefits and thats why I was asking, it just does not make sense to me yet how it could be night and day difference.

Where we thought it might make a difference is reaching up and grabbing the ledge with the extra scrub on the inside sidewall.

Edit:

I just re read what you typed. Are you saying that you think its just maneuverability that is helped? If so can you explain what that means?

I suppose I could just put some on mine and figure it out. I just need time to do the knuckle weights though...
I think a high scrub non angled kingpin is what you need for reach, an example would be the ti fighters.(what you were explaining the differenceyou thought they should have)

By maneuverabilty, I mean the suspension is less affected by turning and the forces that are involved, making the vehicle more stable and more predictable netting a better handling truck without the use of dig.

I wouldn't say, for an example, that an xr turns in a much smaller diameter circle than a berg, but it definitely has less of an affect on the suspension. I think this is heavily due to the king pin inclination.

This is also the same reason the knuckle weights don't seem to have as a dramatic affect on a truck using angle kingpins.

This is my observation...

but I am curious to no how the berg reacts in similar instances
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Old 08-03-2011, 08:38 PM   #63
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I think a high scrub non angled kingpin is what you need for reach, an example would be the ti fighters.(what you were explaining the differenceyou thought they should have)

By maneuverabilty, I mean the suspension is less affected by turning and the forces that are involved, making the vehicle more stable and more predictable netting a better handling truck without the use of dig.

I wouldn't say, for an example, that an xr turns in a much smaller diameter circle than a berg, but it definitely has less of an affect on the suspension. I think this is heavily due to the king pin inclination.

This is also the same reason the knuckle weights don't seem to have as a dramatic affect on a truck using angle kingpins.

This is my observation...

but I am curious to no how the berg reacts in similar instances
Gotcha. Best explanation I have heard yet. Thanks!
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Old 08-03-2011, 09:40 PM   #64
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SO I overlooked that these knuckles are Zero Ackerman. I was wondering if the bent tierod is no longer useful with the Zero setup? I have never ran them. Time is of the essence so I'd like to do this once. Any help would be appreciated.

I have measured eye to eye on the knuckles which is 6 15/16s, or a hair over 176mm. With a little math (out of rockcrawlers old thread) I came up to needing a 140mm link. I know the measurement isn't exact but since we can only buy them in 5 to 10mm increments I think it would work fine for the straight tierod setup.
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Old 08-03-2011, 10:01 PM   #65
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Hmm now that I think about it, some aluminum solid rod will be better. I was thinking TI earlier.
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Old 08-03-2011, 10:29 PM   #66
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I used a Lunsford 140mm with Jato ends...they don't get threaded all the way on...but I never had a problem out of it on my XR...now its been on my berg for a while without any issues either. It only leaves 2mm of thread exposed on either end which means that 8mm of thread are being engaged in the rod end...thats more than enough!
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Old 08-03-2011, 10:32 PM   #67
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Did you drill and tap the ti tierod?
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Old 08-04-2011, 08:56 AM   #68
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I found some round 6061 at a Fastenal here in town, so I'm going to stop by and pick some up. This is what I figured but I would need some heavy duty parts to work with TI and it's not worth this hassle, especially for a tierod.
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Old 08-04-2011, 12:52 PM   #69
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Another option is doing a sleeve of aluminum tubing over the Ti. Use some red loctite when you get it in place. I think Dr. Frank did that with his Berg steering set up. Or the old wrap (same idea as the sleeve) and clamp it where the throw arm attaches with a nut and bolt.

Edit: This may help to explain.


Last edited by TC09mini; 08-04-2011 at 01:00 PM.
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Old 08-04-2011, 05:28 PM   #70
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Nope...I run a drag link to the knuckle. I have the tie rod in the outermost holes and the drag link in the inner hole. With a straight tie rod you'll need to run it in the outer hole anyway or it will hit the tranny case.
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Old 08-05-2011, 08:14 AM   #71
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-Thanks for the pic, TC! That is a nifty idea.

-Hey Ryan, I am having good results with the tierod in the back holes of the knuckles so far.

Here are a few pics of the setup. I had to stretch my front axle width out to 11.25" in order to get the wheels to not rub on the tierod. The Mayhem Evo system really came into play here. It took me a couple minutes to get what I wanted but the best thing about it was that I didn't have to change any hardware. Everything that I needed was there, I just needed the right configuration. Installation of the 8* stuff onto the CCD tubes was a super tight fit, so I took a little sandpaper to the tube to take off just a hair.

I still need to finish the tierod and tomorrow morning I plan on running to get a feel for this new setup. The Zero Ackerman thing is completely new to me and I'm not sure if I will like it just yet. For the longest I ran a 10.6" wide front axle and I've slowly been creeping out to a wider stance with the new Evos and now this.







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Old 08-05-2011, 10:41 AM   #72
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Spiffy!

Your drag link isn't attached. Just thought I would let you know.
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Old 08-05-2011, 10:55 AM   #73
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Spiffy!
Thanks! Give me a call when you start putting yours together!

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Your drag link isn't attached. Just thought I would let you know.

nevermind that , wanker
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Old 08-05-2011, 01:09 PM   #74
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Looks good. Glad to see you got them mounted. I would have clocked them back more myself. Mine are clocked further back on my berg. The more aggressive the clock, the more the tires seem to grab when turning or reaching for a ledge. Mine are clocked way back so you can then clock the motor up some (just slightly for clearance on the rocks) by lengthening the upper links. It made a night and day improvement on my berg, although on my Sportsman truck I lost caster when I switched to the VP 8* set up because the Axial clockable C's have more caster in them.


As it's already been stated, it's the kingpin inclination that makes these unique. You can get caster from any C if you modify the tubes, but the kingpin inclination must be designed and machined into the knuckle and c.
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Old 08-05-2011, 02:00 PM   #75
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Looks good. Glad to see you got them mounted. I would have clocked them back more myself. Mine are clocked further back on my berg. The more aggressive the clock, the more the tires seem to grab when turning or reaching for a ledge. Mine are clocked way back so you can then clock the motor up some (just slightly for clearance on the rocks) by lengthening the upper links. It made a night and day improvement on my berg, although on my Sportsman truck I lost caster when I switched to the VP 8* set up because the Axial clockable C's have more caster in them.


As it's already been stated, it's the kingpin inclination that makes these unique. You can get caster from any C if you modify the tubes, but the kingpin inclination must be designed and machined into the knuckle and c.

Thanks Eddie. I had been running caster but not as much as some people. With my old setup if I had too much the truck was weird in some situations (mainly while turning in a sidehill), so I toned it down some and it's been there ever since. I haven't measured it but it's somewhere in the 10* range. Something tells me that I can achieve more caster with this setup without the truck doing "weird" stuff but only time will tell.
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Old 08-05-2011, 02:07 PM   #76
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Looks like you got the tie rod situation locked down. Good deal
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Old 08-05-2011, 02:09 PM   #77
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Looks like you got the tie rod situation locked down. Good deal

Thanks for the help. Now I just need a link drill bushing. Shit can get frustrating doing this by hand and without a press. You should see the other 3 that I trashed before I got it right
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Old 08-05-2011, 03:32 PM   #78
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Dam looks good cant wait to get my stuff, what did you have to sandpaper a little the tubes were the C's slide into?

I feel you on the running wide I use to run really wide front narrow back then went all narrow and love it now I have to go wide again lolol.
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Old 08-05-2011, 03:37 PM   #79
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Dam looks good cant wait to get my stuff, what did you have to sandpaper a little the tubes were the C's slide into?

I feel you on the running wide I use to run really wide front narrow back then went all narrow and love it now I have to go wide again lolol.
Thanks, Mini! Correct- you have to either sand your tubes down a hair, or the inside of the C. I bet taking the anodizing off would fix the issue.

out of curioisity, How wide were you when you ran a really wide front end? I have always been as narrow as possible, so I'm curious to know what is "really wide" for a berg.

Last edited by helhedded; 08-05-2011 at 03:41 PM.
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Old 08-05-2011, 04:39 PM   #80
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Thanks, Mini! Correct- you have to either sand your tubes down a hair, or the inside of the C. I bet taking the anodizing off would fix the issue.

out of curioisity, How wide were you when you ran a really wide front end? I have always been as narrow as possible, so I'm curious to know what is "really wide" for a berg.

Ok, I wonder if I order the C's raw will make a difference? Thank you.

Oh man I use to run the widest possible in the front 585 with 1in DH pro comps and 335 in the rear. I saw a video of my rig at last years ECC compared to this year and was like wow .

So just gonna have to get use to going a little wide again but man I love running narrow

Here's the video you can see how wide the front is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50TLl...e_gdata_player

Last edited by Mini; 08-05-2011 at 04:41 PM.
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