Dlux Berg Build

[Tgreer]

Man, that looks way nicer than my lead tire weights and shoo goo!

Hey, I've always wondered why your shocks on the rear are so triangulated?

So, how close are you to having as much weight under the axle as above it?

[TSK]

You are a F'ing mad man!

And I love it!

[Harvo]

Looks like a hydroplane

Close ups of the rear weight set up please.

So you are truck number 1 behind the whole Ultra shock layback phenomenon. What is behind this? I have always found in the past that the more you lay them back, the less effective the spring is. On side hills, the uphill side wants to lift more, and to counteract upon that I always had to use stronger springs.

I can see the lifting not being an issue with a pound of weight under the wheels, but are there any other wonky handling issues it causes? I might try it... but it just seems wrong.

[Erik D_lux]

You got big questions, I have big responses. I will work on it.

[saniel68]

So my question is.....how long untill the weight/wheels are availiable???

[Erik D_lux]

Originally Posted by Tgreer

Hey, I've always wondered why your shocks on the rear are so triangulated?

So, how close are you to having as much weight under the axle as above it?

I have no idea how to figure out how much weight I have above vs below. I wouldnt doubt if I had more under the axle. With a battery, my car is weighing RTR at 4lb 12oz. 5.5ish ounces per tire/wheel 21 oz of knuckle weight all the way around and that accounts to 43oz of the whole car which is 76oz.

For the rear shocks, I have found a very specific angle of leaning them in that can really help with tire lifting. I kept going narrower and narrower as it only seemed to help but then I hit a line where if I did go narrower than I am now, it started lifting again. If you ever pay attention to shock setups, usually the more you stand them up, the easier the spring compresses. This is why I try to get super vertical on my fronts. The rear is the same theory. The more you lean them in (to a point) the harder it is for the spring to compress.

Originally Posted by saniel68

So my question is.....how long untill the weight/wheels are availiable???

I guess now?

Loaded Dice Knuckle weight add ons

[Erik D_lux]

Originally Posted by Harvo

So you are truck number 1 behind the whole Ultra shock layback phenomenon. What is behind this? I have always found in the past that the more you lay them back, the less effective the spring is. On side hills, the uphill side wants to lift more, and to counteract upon that I always had to use stronger springs.

I can see the lifting not being an issue with a pound of weight under the wheels, but are there any other wonky handling issues it causes? I might try it... but it just seems wrong.

I think the suspension geo and the springs play together. All roads lead to Rome but here is how I arrived...

I am going to guess that the reason you get lifing is because you have too much anti dive in your front end. I know you probably already know this but for everybody else out there, there is a spot where you can put your upper links that your front axle can tuck into the chassis (links low at the chassis) and there is a spot where the axle pushes away from the chassis (links higher at the chassis). Whether or not your chassis is capable of finding this point is dependant on the chassis you bought and if the holes are available.

If youre links are too low the shocks will want to compress on side hills, it will want to pull the rear end over on down hills and even though its hard to see, it will want to pull the front end off the rocks on climbs. The easiest to see on a climb is when your driving a climb at an angle, the lowest of the two front tires grabs a ledge, you dig and the opposing tire wants to tuck into the chassis and roll you over.

If youre links are too high on the chassis it will do the opposite. The front axle will want to push off the rock on a sidehill, down hills will actually be pretty good because it will push the chassis back and climbing is pretty good IMO also. I see a lot less negatives in running higher than lower. Think about a break over. When youre stuck on your belly do you want the axle to pull up or push out? The hardest thing to make people understand is climbs. Nobody wants to see their chassis separate from the front axle. It makes people feel uneasy and like their car is going to flip. The heaviest part of my car is the front axle. I want 100% of available weight on that rock. Why do you care that 1oz of chassis is hanging off and away from a 2.5lb front axle?

I find the line in my chassis where it will lift and I find the line where it pushes and I lean slightly on the push side of that line.

So, if youre car is lifting on a sidehill, you could say its the shocks and springs that are too soft or you could say its your suspension geo. I think I set my geo up so it does not lift with soft springs, you sound like you setup your geo so it does not lift with stiff springs. Same result, different way to get there. I just dont like stiff springs so thats why I get where I want with the soft ones. I like to think that my suspension sits almost neutral, not pushing me off the rock, not lifting tires off the rock and with my springs laid back, the spring is more pushing forward than pushing the chassis or axles away from each other.

This applies to the front only. The rear is the opposite.

All just theories that work for me. I could be wrong.

[TSK]

Originally Posted by Erik D_lux

I guess now?

Loaded Dice Knuckle weight add ons

Where's my royalties damnit?!

[Erik D_lux]

I just put a check in the mail.

[Harvo]

But the way mine is set up, if it's on a sidehill and you dig uphill, both uphill shocks totally compress and the truck tilts to the uphill side. Very stable. Mine doesn't lift like I expected after I tried your front shock and spring setup.

[markfw]

My .02 for what it's worth:
I agree with what your saying. and l just add that on really steep up hills, like the kind where you need a ledge to pull you up, or the kind where you need a blurb/dig to catch a ledge. I think the opposite front setup works better.

I'm not contradicting anything you said, just pointing out what I think is a trade off.

I always like your posts about tuning. Because it's something I'm always working on myself .
It's interesting that looking back at the earlier pics of your car it looks like your link geometry has stayed similar, and your shock geometry has changed more

[Erik D_lux]

Originally Posted by Harvo

But the way mine is set up, if it's on a sidehill and you dig uphill, both uphill shocks totally compress and the truck tilts to the uphill side. Very stable. Mine doesn't lift like I expected after I tried your front shock and spring setup.

Side hills may be something that I have to think further about because of the 8* vs non 8*. I think climbs and down hills should be consistent between the two but the side hill and the reactions could vary quite a bit depending on the king pin inclination.

Pretty interesting on both sides compressing on an up hill dig with 8*. I would have thought it was opposite. If youre screwing around with video sometime, I would love to see it.

I need to watch mine closer but I am going to say it can depend on the situation but sometimes it can compress and roll over or sometimes it can extend and roll over. As I said above, I like it very neutral.

Originally Posted by markfw

My .02 for what it's worth:
I agree with what your saying. and l just add that on really steep up hills, like the kind where you need a ledge to pull you up, or the kind where you need a blurb/dig to catch a ledge. I think the opposite front setup works better.

I'm not contradicting anything you said, just pointing out what I think is a trade off.

I always like your posts about tuning. Because it's something I'm always working on myself .
It's interesting that looking back at the earlier pics of your car it looks like your link geometry has stayed similar, and your shock geometry has changed more

Couldnt agree more with what you said. Everything is a trade off for sure. Harvo and I have talked about setups and there is always the "but now I cant xxxxxx as well". I dont think you can have your cake and eat it too, just set it up to be well balanced and work with the quirks that you dont like.

I can see the front lifting a bit being a benefit in the situation you brought up for sure.

Yeah, I have moved my shocks quite a bit in the last little while. My Geometry has not changed since I went to super lite axles. I know exactly what happens if I move a hole on my upper links either direction. I do think my lower links keep moving though. I am finding that I like them almost as high as possible on the axle tubes but I take it a step at a time as I am too scared to just go full on.

[Harvo]

Originally Posted by Erik D_lux

Side hills may be something that I have to think further about because of the 8* vs non 8*. I think climbs and down hills should be consistent between the two but the side hill and the reactions could vary quite a bit depending on the king pin inclination.

Pretty interesting on both sides compressing on an up hill dig with 8*. I would have thought it was opposite. If youre screwing around with video sometime, I would love to see it.

I need to watch mine closer but I am going to say it can depend on the situation but sometimes it can compress and roll over or sometimes it can extend and roll over. As I said above, I like it very neutral.



Couldnt agree more with what you said. Everything is a trade off for sure. Harvo and I have talked about setups and there is always the "but now I cant xxxxxx as well". I dont think you can have your cake and eat it too, just set it up to be well balanced and work with the quirks that you dont like.

I can see the front lifting a bit being a benefit in the situation you brought up for sure.

Yeah, I have moved my shocks quite a bit in the last little while. My Geometry has not changed since I went to super lite axles. I know exactly what happens if I move a hole on my upper links either direction. I do think my lower links keep moving though. I am finding that I like them almost as high as possible on the axle tubes but I take it a step at a time as I am too scared to just go full on.

In the southeast, just about every truck and setup can make any climb you will see at any comp. Side hills are the deal breakers here. You see several per course, and if you don't have the setup right it means taking a gate or two... or not finishing the course. That is why I set up for side hills and live with the other quirks.

You are moving your lower links? Like rotating your mounts up? Aside from more clearance, is that doing anything for you?

[ittybitty]

It would be reducing the separation between the uppers and lowers at the axle...which was one of the biggest reasons the XR's were better suited for the lighter RTR weights we were seeing. The separation between uppers and lowers on a stock berg axle is HUGE compared to a stock XR axle. Once Erik produced his axles and provided the ability to not only move the lower link/shock mounts around but to also have the upper links mount lower at the gearbox things got interesting and the Bergs were back in the game.

[Harvo]

Originally Posted by ittybitty

It would be reducing the separation between the uppers and lowers at the axle...which was one of the biggest reasons the XR's were better suited for the lighter RTR weights we were seeing. The separation between uppers and lowers on a stock berg axle is HUGE compared to a stock XR axle. Once Erik produced his axles and provided the ability to not only move the lower link/shock mounts around but to also have the upper links mount lower at the gearbox things got interesting and the Bergs were back in the game.

But his set up isn't what I would call "light" anymore

[ittybitty]

It still doesn't weigh 6lbs does it?

[TSK]

Originally Posted by ittybitty

It still doesn't weigh 6lbs does it?

6lbs of crawler in a 5lb bag

[ittybitty]

On a tech note though...the weight systems and wheels (I'm still trying to figure out how they work though) are looking GREAT Erik! I take a couple weeks off to work on 1:1 rigs and you change things up quite a bit on me

Keep it up!

[Harvo]

Tiny phone video in the garage. (You asked for it) Ramp is about 49 degrees. Outdoor carpet surface (lots of grip). The truck will do this all the way up to 52 degrees if I am very careful. As it turns uphill, the uphill side sucks down. Digging makes it easier to see.

[SkaldidDog]

Originally Posted by Erik D_lux

Also running 1.6oz of rear weight.

Nice rear weight design.