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Old 07-05-2016, 02:46 PM   #1641
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Default Re: Dlux Berg Build

One thing that will make me want to puke right away is when people say something to the effect of "Why would I want lighter (axles, chassis, gears, shafts etc,.) and then simply put more weight on the knuckles". Weight is VERY important where you put it.

There is a HUGE difference from having a axle assembly that weighs 12oz with zero knuckle weight and an axle assembly that weighs 7oz with 5oz of knuckle weight. Cutting 1oz out of your axle assembly (or whatever part) and putting 1oz of knuckle weight will always be better. MAKE EVERY SINGLE PIECE OF YOUR CAR AS LIGHT AS POSSIBLE AND THEN ADD WEIGHT TO FEEL COMFORTABLE ON YOUR KNUCKLES.
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Old 07-05-2016, 02:46 PM   #1642
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Two aspects of weight that I don't think I am willing to budge on would be that it is ALWAYS better to have it as wide and as low as possible. Other factors that I am not certain on are how much to have and where the line is drawn on the axle where it is the most beneficial.

Is it better now to take 1oz of weight out of your axle tubes to put that weight on your knuckles but above the axle center line?

Is it a good idea to run your battery on your front axle? Its really far forward but its also higher than anything else other than your wheels/tires hurting your sidehill.

I have seen many cars that will run a ton of weight on the knuckles but they want it to be all forward of the axle center line, even if its all the way to the top of the wheel. Is this better for bias? More importantly, is this better for climbing?

When people post pictures of their bias, does that transfer to the real world?

Is it good to run any weight above the axle center line on the knuckles?

Does it take more effort for a car to pull more weight up a hill? If so, does that still apply when all the weight is on the front axle? Does that still apply when its low in the rear wheels?

if you like to run light weight, do you think that you're missing out if you don't have weight in one of the most optimum spots, even if everybody agreed that less weight is better?
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Old 07-05-2016, 02:47 PM   #1643
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Default Re: Dlux Berg Build

What I wanted to do is try to grasp the idea of where the gravity is taking the weight and where is the best place to put it. Please understand I am not pushing any of this as fact. I am actually making my thoughts vulnerable and posting them up for constructive criticism as I think we could all think a bit deeper about it.

Where you put the weight matters 100% IMO. How much you run is the debatable part.

Here is my start.

I feel like there are 4 factors when it comes to weight placement.
Sidehilling
Climbing (at a realistic maximum of approx 64*)
Ledges (90* or even sometimes more)
Downhills

What I am trying to show in the below is what I feel is the most helpful weight in each situation (except downhills). I am not saying that other weight placement can not be helpful, I am just thinking this might be the most beneficial, maybe the most balanced with the most benefits?. Hopefully that makes sense.
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Old 07-05-2016, 02:47 PM   #1644
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Default Re: Dlux Berg Build

I think with most people that dont run the loaded dice weights, you are pretty much forced to run weight where you have to. When you run the loaded dice though, options really open up. Its almost as if my baseline is not the axle center line anymore but rather the bottom of the knuckle.

Following this theory, I took out the tungsten slugs from my lower knuckle holes and threw on the new lower brass arms that I make. I took approx 13g from each side and put 13g back in at a much lower point. The brass lower arms are a no brainer IMO.





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Old 07-05-2016, 02:47 PM   #1645
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Default Re: Dlux Berg Build

Sidehills seem pretty straight forward to me.

Anything below axle center line seems beneficial. I think weight could be beneficial above the axle center line also depending on the degree of the sidehill but like the battery on the front axle idea, I can also see that weight pulling you over since its so high and could actually be force pulling you over.

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Old 07-05-2016, 02:48 PM   #1646
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Climbing is a bit more confusing for me.

One reason that I shy away from more weight or even any weight above the axle center line is when I built my mini unlimited, I had a TON of weight on those front knuckles. I think I was around 9.5oz per side. I was running loaded dice weights and brass knuckles. I thought it would kill climbs with that much weight. It sucked. I removed my brass knuckles and went to aluminum and just that weight movement was HUGE. That car climbed way better. And its not a results thing, even though the results were better. It was more of the front end staying planted rather than the car pulling less weight up a climb. Two totally different things, if you understand what I am saying.

You can see where I took the square. I think this is the most beneficial for climbs you have to drive up. I could be swayed into thinking that some weight above the axle center line could help though....

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Old 07-05-2016, 02:48 PM   #1647
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Default Re: Dlux Berg Build

Then there are ledges.

These are the "climbs" that are just as tall as the wheelbase. You don't need much weight to make these lines, just enough to hold your line and hook a tire. I personally wouldn't tune my car at all for these as they seem pretty simple to do.

This is what I would call optimal for ledges.

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Old 07-05-2016, 02:48 PM   #1648
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Default Re: Dlux Berg Build

Now, I took a step back and tried to look at the overall picture with the 3 above taken into consideration. I numbered them according to priority 8 being the last to go, kinda backwards.

The top, was all alone, only good for climbs. I killed it. I also killed a slug below it, but in hindsight, after looking at the pictures, I think I should have taken the rear most weight out. The one I took out works in all 3 situations where as the rear most only works in ledges and sidehillls.

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Old 07-05-2016, 02:48 PM   #1649
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Default Re: Dlux Berg Build

Went from 8.3oz per side to 6.3oz per side. Pretty big difference. Don't pay attention to the numbers on the weights at this point, this is before I changed my mind.



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Old 07-05-2016, 03:13 PM   #1650
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Default Re: Dlux Berg Build

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Originally Posted by Erik D_lux View Post
I like to run a lot of weight. I have been adding weight as well. I actually added more knuckle weight to my 2.2S rig right before I started running the morning of ECC. It helped tremendously. I even found in certain climbs...I NEEDED MORE.

One of the best mods I ever did to my car. Me too

So, I am just spreading some knowledge that I feel like I have whether or not it will work for you and your location is the question. I haven't had the opportunity to crawl on the west coast but I think it still helps no matter what.
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Originally Posted by Erik D_lux View Post
One thing that will make me want to puke right away is when people say something to the effect of "Why would I want lighter (axles, chassis, gears, shafts etc,.) and then simply put more weight on the knuckles". Weight is VERY important where you put it.<<

There is a HUGE difference from having a axle assembly that weighs 12oz with zero knuckle weight and an axle assembly that weighs 7oz with 5oz of knuckle weight. Cutting 1oz out of your axle assembly (or whatever part) and putting 1oz of knuckle weight will always be better. MAKE EVERY SINGLE PIECE OF YOUR CAR AS LIGHT AS POSSIBLE AND THEN ADD WEIGHT TO FEEL COMFORTABLE ON YOUR KNUCKLES. I'm not a weight weenie but do try to shed whatever extra weight I can without compromising strength. But with DLUX parts....you don't have to worry about strength
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Two aspects of weight that I don't think I am willing to budge on would be that it is ALWAYS better to have it as wide and as low as possible. Other factors that I am not certain on are how much to have and where the line is drawn on the axle where it is the most beneficial. I don't like a wide truck. I narrow up and make sure I have plenty of belly clearance. But then again there are downfalls to that setup.

Is it better now to take 1oz of weight out of your axle tubes to put that weight on your knuckles but above the axle center line?

Is it a good idea to run your battery on your front axle? Its really far forward but its also higher than anything else other than your wheels/tires hurting your sidehill. I always thought of the battery as a counter balance for the servo.

if you like to run light weight, do you think that you're missing out if you don't have weight in one of the most optimum spots, even if everybody agreed that less weight is better? I'm not super light weight. My rigs seem to fall in the middle. I think the super super lightweight rigs suffer. I don't think I've seen one out perform a heavier rig or loaded up knuckled rig. They do all kinds of weird flexy flea unexpected jumpy things.
Of course I'm not a top driver but I do like figuring out what works for my rigs. At the end of the day I know it always boils down to the driver. The best ranked driver could pick up any of my rigs and still win. BUT, a well built rig can be put in the hands of a newb and they will beat the seasoned drivers with it too.
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Old 07-05-2016, 03:17 PM   #1651
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Default Re: Dlux Berg Build

Wait. .. what? You took weight out . Is this the most appropriate place to say I told you so?

Seriously though. One other consideration or type of crawling situation that other parts of the country has to consider is gaps or holes. With massive weight on the knuckles, they will always fall in a hole and flip a truck. A little less weight and you can use the rear drive to manipulate the truck and carry a tire over a hole.

I have never gotten as technical as you just did, but I like to have my slugs in the bottom first, then forward. ... just like you prioritized them (I think).

With the loaded dice, I initially struggled with weight vs foam set up. With the weight that low and more of it, on down hill turns I started pushing the bead of the wheel. The truck was sticking the turn so good without flipping it was peeling the tire off. Stiffer foam solved it, but it was a balance between hard enough, but still soft enough to grab small bits.

Originally, placing my battery on the axle was more a function of totally smooth and free suspension travel rather than weight placement. It did help with forward bias, and it's such a small amount of weight that I didn't feel it hurt being higher on the truck.

Last edited by Harvo; 07-05-2016 at 03:22 PM.
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Old 07-05-2016, 03:19 PM   #1652
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Default Re: Dlux Berg Build

for sidehilling a movable weight would keep the weight below the centerline.
something like the old mercury bars, if any of you all remember those.
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Old 07-05-2016, 03:41 PM   #1653
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Default Re: Dlux Berg Build

I like those weight discussions,because i like to drive with much weights and most people (at least in germany) drive as light as possible
A half year ago i built some selfmade weights with 70mm diameter and 7,16oz per side.For comparsion the original Bully Knuckleweight:





And i also build some wheels for these weights,at first very simple in Aluminium and then in G10 with less weight







This works really good for me,but itīs a little bit tricky to change the wheels... and the difference between my old knuckleweights with 50mm diameter and 7.5oz wasnīt really big.So for the moment i still run 50mm diameter (which works with CI 6-bolt for example or some modified standard carbon wheels).And the other thing is: if i want to run small tires i need very small wheels and even smaller knuckleweights.But i donīt want to run less than 6.5oz,so i prefer 50mm diameter although i know that a bigger diameter works in principle better
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Old 07-05-2016, 07:10 PM   #1654
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Default Re: Dlux Berg Build

Whoa
I really feel like I just got my $20 a yr worth right there damn

Now i got to go hit rocks tommorow just to see how the rear feels attached??????
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Old 07-06-2016, 08:44 AM   #1655
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Default Re: Dlux Berg Build

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Originally Posted by chicklet View Post
I don't like a wide truck. I narrow up and make sure I have plenty of belly clearance. But then again there are downfalls to that setup.
Sorry, thats not what I meant but I can see how you thought that.

What I was saying was that you should put it as wide as possible no matter how wide you like to run. If thats 9", put your weight at 9" wide. If you run 12", put your weight at 12".

I think we could all agree that a wider car will be able to pull some crazier lines but there is a trade off for sure.


Quote:
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I'm not super light weight. My rigs seem to fall in the middle. I think the super super lightweight rigs suffer. I don't think I've seen one out perform a heavier rig or loaded up knuckled rig. They do all kinds of weird flexy flea unexpected jumpy things.
I know thats how it was for me when I tried to run little to no weight. I dont crawl slow enough so any time I would hit a rock or give it throttle, I could not control what it did because it was always air borne.
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Old 07-06-2016, 08:56 AM   #1656
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Wait. .. what? You took weight out . Is this the most appropriate place to say I told you so?
It could be an appropriate place to say that but I left out information. That information is that I ran it last weekend and I didnt like it. I think I will be putting weight back in but I will give it one more weekend to prove itself.

The car didnt feel bad, it felt fine, but the results were not there. I am not sure people can understand that? An example is the new guys and him wanting 6" travel shocks. Sure, it will feel good when your car flexs 180*. All tires will be on the ground and you will feel stable. Anybody who has been into crawling knows that the results are not there though. He feels good but no results. Thats how my lack of weights work. I think there are many examples in this hobby where you need to stop with how you feel about it and strictly look at results.

Having said that, the temperatures are way up around here and that can really drown out performance fast so that could be part of it.

Quote:
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Seriously though. One other consideration or type of crawling situation that other parts of the country has to consider is gaps or holes. With massive weight on the knuckles, they will always fall in a hole and flip a truck. A little less weight and you can use the rear drive to manipulate the truck and carry a tire over a hole.
I have heard this before but just dont understand it. Maybe I dont drive enough gaps? I also wonder if its an 8* vs non thing as I can lift my front tires with rear drive with no effort.

Thinking more about it though, how serious is it to have to float a gap, if it really were a problem? How many comps have you been to where you said "if I could have only floated that gap"? Can anybody show me a video where a guy is having this problem because of his weight? I have one obstacle where you must float the front tire up a ledge. I will try to capture it on video this weekend.


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Originally, placing my battery on the axle was more a function of totally smooth and free suspension travel rather than weight placement. It did help with forward bias, and it's such a small amount of weight that I didn't feel it hurt being higher on the truck.
I can see battery placement due to smooth travel. Thats why I keep mine where I do. It always looked tough to get the battery to clear on the front. Getting caught on mine does get a bit old though....

What do you think that battery weighs? 1.5oz for the battery and then another .5oz for the mount, strap etc? Seems like quite a bit of weight to me to be above axle center line and not out very wide?

Seems like both battery locations suck to me. LOL. It would be nice to tuck it away like the servo.
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Old 07-06-2016, 08:58 AM   #1657
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for sidehilling a movable weight would keep the weight below the centerline.
something like the old mercury bars, if any of you all remember those.

I think movable weight is actually the opposite of what you want.

You want all your weight to be forward of the knuckle on a climb. With a movable weight, it would all be below, not forward.

On a sidehill, the closer you got to 90*, the more the weight would want to go to the opposite side of the wheel. Say you went over 90*, then the weight would shift to the top of the wheel and actually be working against you.
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Old 07-06-2016, 11:58 AM   #1658
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Default Re: Dlux Berg Build

When you crawl as many river beds as we do around here, gaps are common. They are also ways for course builders to throw a bit of evil into the mix.

I'll try to dig up some video. If I can't, I'll make one.
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Old 07-19-2016, 09:16 AM   #1659
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Harvo,

Do you consider any of these lines "gaps" that youre talking about?

https://youtu.be/vnGDNncBCew

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Old 07-19-2016, 09:23 AM   #1660
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"gaps"
I think he means like all those giant holes in the courses this weekend at NENC.
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