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12-21-2008, 02:27 AM
| #1 |
| RCC Addict Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: in the woods
Posts: 1,915
|  ...Compare...
The Kyosho has had its stink points (price, and tires, personally I LOVE the stock wheels  ) pointed out quite a bit but it seems to be the toughest set of 2.2 axles I have ever held. I thought for a little discussion, we try getting all the 2.2 contenders on the same playing field and then compare cost.... AX10 kit sells for $209.00. $20.00 for front CVD's. $25.00 for the HD lockers $25.00 for the rear strait axle adapters $25.00 for the rear strait axle shafts $25.00 for AL front knuckles That should get you to just about the same "stout" factor as the Rock Force stock. But, to get even closer you would need AL axle "C's" for $25.00 and upgraded drive shafts for between $22.00 for Jato shafts up to $40.00 for the MIP units. So that gets an AX10 to between $376.00 to $394.00. Bergs go for $349.00, but you need tires so tack on $35.00 plus $15.99 for a second motor. Berg, $399.99 Losi - Selling for $284.99, but Losi is known for "pretty" over "durability". Ask anyone who ever raced any of their buggies, stadium trucks, or TC's. Beautiful and fast, but fragile as glass. I wonder how many after market parts will be needed to toughen that bird up? Venom Crawler - Selling for $209.99. I have no real knowledge on this one. I will reserve comment until I have one in my hands. Rock Force - I bought mine for $382.99. What does all this mean? If we take each rig, break down the numbers and stop trying to armchair quarterback we can see each will end you up in the same ballpark. I think this next year of crawling will be Very interesting in the variety of rigs ran in the 2.2 class. P.S. Josh, did you really compare a Rock Force to a TLT??? Really??? That is one long stretch my friend  |
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12-21-2008, 06:33 AM
| #2 |
| Keep it real   Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Yakima,WA
Posts: 6,532
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We've yet to break any parts on the Losi in field testing   It's not a fragile "toy" as I've read many refer to it as. But I'll let the truck speak for itself.... |
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12-21-2008, 07:00 AM
| #3 |
| I wanna be Dave Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: ?
Posts: 5,055
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If that new Losi is half as crappy built as the speed-T you guy are in sorry shape. The Speed-T Diff has plastic gears. The speed destroy them.
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12-21-2008, 09:26 AM
| #4 |
| Quarry Creeper Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Creeping in the Dark!!!
Posts: 349
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Dang gerame do you sleep??
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12-21-2008, 10:39 AM
| #5 |
| Quarry Creeper Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: San Jose
Posts: 353
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Interesting. I'm curious where you shop, Gerame. Those are some low prices! Although someone looking to comp an AX10 would probably start with teh ARTR for $250. It actually comes with a good body and tires. I've probably spent around $700 on my Axial (starting from an original AX10 kit at $250) not including wheels, tires, bodies, broken parts or electronics. That's to bring it to a level that I think is competitive. If I had to do it all over again from scratch, I'm sure I could save a few hundred. There's so many different ways to build one it's mind boggling. But you really should include a chassis in you prices, so add another $50-$100. As for the Losi, it's still too early to come to any real conclusions. Yes, durablilty will be the biggest question, but I think Rich designed a great rig with the help of their fantastic Team drivers. We're still going to have to wait a little longer til non-Losi drivers get their hands on them and they finalize the specs. I do admit that it looks to be the best out-of-the-box crawler so far and the price will be unbeatable. Venom? I couldn't care less.  Berg? While it has proven itself very capable, for some reason I can't bring myself to run an MOA rig. Reminds me too much of a super. JMHO. I don't hate them, they're just not for me. RF? For those who haven't driven a worm drive axle, you'll love 'em. Not having to worry about your rig rolling back makes climbing so much easier. It allows me to focus more on my line without worrying if I'm going to be quick enough on the throttle or dig. Yeah, I'm no pro driver so I think these axles will be great for beginners. The only thing going against the RF is the price. But if these axles hold up as well as they have for me for the last few weeks, then in the long run I think the price will even out. I'm not just talking about normal wear and tear, I'm talking about the abilty to withstand a 30' tumble down the side of a hill. If you're a pro driver that never tumbles, then good for you. For the rest of us.... :-P |
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12-21-2008, 10:54 AM
| #6 |
| Quarry Creeper Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Creeping in the Dark!!!
Posts: 349
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Yea we wont even get it to how much I have into my axial, Lets just say I could have bought 5 RF's at 400.00 a pop  |
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12-21-2008, 11:04 AM
| #7 |
| Rock Stacker Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Kenai, Alaska
Posts: 92
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As for Losi, I have the 8B, 8T XXX N/T AD2, MRC, Desert Truck and Mini LST2 and a few other's. I have raced the 8's the last 2 season and have had very little problems with them, and most of them were due to my own stupidity and inexperience, I look at it this way, if everybody built them bullet proof, then there would not be a need for after market parts. Just my .02 |
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12-21-2008, 11:05 AM
| #8 |
| I wanna be Dave   Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Within The Machine,,,
Posts: 2,031
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well,,im a die hard kyosho fan,,have been for years,,i couldnt get my hands on one of the rf fast enough,,,my only problem with it was telling my wife it was in,,so until xmas i wait. how ever in the mean time ive been stocking up on notes from you guys who have em,, im not concerened with all the other rigs that are for sale to be honest,,i have my axial based rigs and have dumped lots of money into all of em,,,i dont see it with the rf,,other than the chassis i dont think i would want to change a thing on design,,( i want that tube chassis from john )very stout,,and thats good for me.. im gonna make it work just like i did with all my other rigs,,,i want to compete with this rig,,and will..im glad theres others out there who will as well,,not every one who has one of these will,,and im ok with that as well.. there will always be haters of the new,,as ive noticed in the past,,as of now,,im sticking to the guns of my rock force... |
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12-21-2008, 12:21 PM
| #9 |
| Rock Crawler Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Dayton, Ohio
Posts: 556
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Gerame, Thanks for the comparison from an outside POV. Before anyone else chimes in I feel that I have to add that I believe Losi is a great company with great people. I have friends at Losi and friends that drive professionally for Losi. I have purchased Losi products in the past and I see no reason why I would't purchase them in the future. To characterize their products as "toys" isn't fair. Losi (like Kyosho) have products that are not considered "competition" products, they are mainstream consumer products designed for consumer entertainment. The Slider that was mentioned isn't a serious competition product. But that doesn't stop me from having fun with mine! I have driven the 8ight series of products from Losi and I would never consider those toys! I don't wish to hear any negative comments about Losi, Axial, Venom or anyone else in the Kyosho threads. If you have a legitimate gripe or concern, state your comments in the appropriate forum. For those of you who have comments, both positive and negative about the Kyosho, this is the place (I know that Harley has figured THAT out at least . I read somewhere he is the master of fecal finishing?)The one great thing about the R/C Industry is that there is room for many, many players. Am I concerned that the Losi might actually be a fantastic crawler? Hell no. I HOPE their crawler is fantastic. Why? It raises the bar for everyone involved. What the racing community has experienced for years and the crawling community is just now being exposed to is that just because another company comes out with "their latest and greatest" doesn't mean that all the other companies are shaking in their boots. Are competitors going to align themselves with one company over another? Sure. All that is going to happen is that companies are going to continually improve their products and guess what, YOU win. I look forward to the 2009 crawling season as the Axial vs. Berg vs. Kyosho vs. Losi vs. Venom battle commences! Let's settle this on the rocks! - David |
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12-21-2008, 12:56 PM
| #10 | |||||
| RCC Addict Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: in the woods
Posts: 1,915
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Awesome discussion guys, glad to hear a Losi driver chime in Quote:
As far as... Quote:
I was not trying to disrespect or minimize the Losi crawler, I just think people are getting a little giddy about an un-released product Most who know me know I am a MASSIVE pessimist. I see the negative looking at everything. I did the same with the Rock Force. I saw the pictures and thought "junk", but having it changed my mind. I hope Losi puts my concerns to rest once their product is released. I will have one as soon as I can get my paws on one. Quote:
For the prices, I went to RCC vendors sites and from my LHS. I may have rounded to the closed 5, but that is it Quote:
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12-21-2008, 01:02 PM
| #11 | |
| RCC Addict Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: in the woods
Posts: 1,915
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12-21-2008, 01:08 PM
| #12 |
| Rock Crawler Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Dayton, Ohio
Posts: 556
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Gerame I didn't mean to suggest that you called them toys. I was referencing Tanis' post. - David |
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12-21-2008, 01:10 PM
| #13 | |
| RCC Addict Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: in the woods
Posts: 1,915
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12-21-2008, 01:11 PM
| #14 | |
| Rock Crawler Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Dayton, Ohio
Posts: 556
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HAHAHAHAHA - David | |
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12-21-2008, 01:13 PM
| #15 | |
| RCC Addict Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: in the woods
Posts: 1,915
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On my Rock Force. I had a LOAD of custom wheel jobs come in this past 14 days. I will have Production ones for sale by Christmas | |
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12-21-2008, 01:22 PM
| #16 | |
| Quarry Creeper Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: San Jose
Posts: 353
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I didn't get the nickname "killjoy" for nothing. I don't see it as "the glass is half full/half empty", I see it as "the glass is broken, leaking and must be fixed". When my LHS got the RF in, Dewmerz called me and told me. My response was "I'm not paying $450 for that crap!" That night I read everything I could find on RCC and called in sick the next day. After staring at the box for 20min at the LHS I bought it and spent the rest of the day building it. Now after a month of frustrations, testing, making parts I'm actually very happy I bought it. Anyone here that's going to the norcal comp on the 4th will get a chance to drive mine and I'll post up their opinions. | |
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12-21-2008, 05:54 PM
| #17 |
| Keep it real Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Yakima,WA
Posts: 6,532
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Good discussion guys with great points Gerame, I didn't mean for it to come across as you saying they were toys, I have read that on the board several times and that was the term that came to mind first this morningEverybody has a preference for what they want to run, and that's the great part.....how boring would it be if we all had the same vehicle. And just to be clear as well, I'm not putting any other companies down, the points stated above reflect my feelings as well, competition between companies is what pushes the envelope and new innovative things come about because of it, and the crawling community benefits from it .I have not had the opportunity to see a RF in person yet, but from the pics, I'm sure you could drive them off a cliff without much worry |
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12-21-2008, 08:00 PM
| #18 | |
| Pebble Pounder Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Bay Area
Posts: 180
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12-21-2008, 10:45 PM
| #19 |
| Quarry Creeper Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: San Jose
Posts: 353
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Yeah Gerame, at least give us a teaser pic of the wheels to hold us over. |
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12-21-2008, 11:17 PM
| #20 | ||||
| 20K Club  Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Sending illegals home one Hayabusa at a time.
Posts: 22,981
| GAME ON! Quote:
I say we take this to the true end: Axial Axial ARTR: $229 Knuckles: $30 C's: $30 Shocks (stockers SUCK): $40 Driveshaft: $55 Chassis (I don't care for the stock chassis): $75 Dig (DNA): $70 Dig Servo: $30 4-link plates: $20 Total: $619 Berg Berg Kit: $349 Wheels: $40 Tires: $40 Chassis: $75 Shocks: $40 Motor +1: $20 Micro Switchs: $10 Dig Servo: $15 Battery (needs slightly more power because of 2 motors): $20 Total: $609 Kyosho Rock Force: $449 Wheels: $40 Tires: $40 Dig: $45 Dig Servo: $100 Chassis: $75 Links: $50 Front 4-link: $10 Shocks: $40 HS Gears: $60 Total: $909 I will reserve this space for Venom and Losi The same ESC and motor could be use in any of these rigs (with the addition of one motor in the Berg). All very general numbers but what I would consider a truck I would take out on the rocks for competition and be able to hang with others. Quote:
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I left myself open on the Berg. After driving it for the second half of the season I will not go back to a shafty in the near future. You can not control a shafty like an MOA it just isn't possible within reason at this scale. I am running twin ESC's and a 4 channel computer radio and it does some freaking amazing things. The control it has is not even worth comparing to a shafty. Now can I use it to the fullest.....pssshh not hardly. I was tied for 2nd place in our local series here when I started using the Berg. I was out of first place by more than 10 points! In the next 6 comps I took the lead an won by 10 points, a 20 point total swing. Quote:
I know, I should really let people know how I really feel. I hold way too much in and sugar coat everything........................bwaahahahahahah. I like to see the bar raised for sure, and I just feel the RF came in below the bar already set. Yes its tough, but it is almost the only positive to the rig. The suspension swing is exaggerated, it needs a lot of modification to corrected. I have heard the "I like some axle swing" and I can agree with that to a point, just not as this much. The $60 extra I have to spend to get to a reasonable gear ratio is pretty stupid. Include the HS gears in the box and ditch the 30:1. Aluminum Skid (yup I know the berg comes with one stock too).......dumb idea. Kyosho obviously isn't afraid to injection mold stuff (look at the ridiculous amount of cross braces), just mold a decent skid. Well there is might start to this discussion. In summary, as a summary I would not spend the $400+ again. I do not doubt that this can in fact be turned into a competitive rig though. | ||||
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