How to impove breakover?

[Duuuuuuuude]

So it seems my biggest obsticle so far is breakover. I can go up, but over is a different story.

I've run sprung and droop. I wouldn't have thought it, but my current droop setup has better breakover than sprung. Not really sure why, as not much has changed other than a lower COG.

Here's a pic for reference...



I've got weight in the tires, though I don't have an exact number, the fronts are heavier than the rear. My belly clearance pretty much doubles at full extension.

The only way I can make it over some of my most troublesome spots is to hit them hard and fast and hope that some foreward momentum throws me over.

What else can I do to impove this? I'm thinking maybe a 60/40 setup? Longer WB? More weight up front? I'm open to nearly anything...

[Culetto]

I cant tell what your GC is in that photo but it looks pretty low. Low works well on sidehilling and off camber stuff but for breakover you need GC and forward weight bias. Theres no other way around it. You can get it a couple different ways. Running droop your suspension extends to give you more and will drag you over the lip. On a full sprung suspension your belly clearance is at max already. Some people latley have been running a half-sprung style setup. This means the shocks sit in the middle of their travel at rest.

Your balance point should be just forward the lower link mounts at the chassis.

[Duuuuuuuude]

I haven't really taken a ruler to it yet, but I'm guestimating my GC is somewhere around 1 1/2", 2" at the most.

Like I said, it breaks over better as you see it now than it will at full height, which is around 4".

I had some thoughts about checking to see where my balance point was, but its definately foreward of centerline (big honkin' 6 cell...)

There is almost a full roll of heavy solder laying in the bottom drawer of my toolbox...maybe I'll experiment with some more weight tomorrow and see what that does.

[Ghost]

ONE WORD......STICK.......lol

[Duuuuuuuude]

Originally Posted by Ghost

ONE WORD......STICK.......lol

Never considered that. Hmmm....lets see...

[Reflection]

Not that it'll help with break overs,but your link geometry looks way off. 1 1/2-2" is pretty dang low for a super. Try it around 3" under the belly. Heck,allot of 2.2's are close to 3" under the belly. I can't remember exactly where my super is sitting right now,I'll measure and see tomorrow. It's pretty low,but I don't think it's hardly that low.

[Duuuuuuuude]

Originally Posted by raptorman57

Not that it'll help with break overs,but your link geometry looks way off. 1 1/2-2" is pretty dang low for a super. Try it around 3" under the belly. Heck,allot of 2.2's are close to 3" under the belly. I can't remember exactly where my super is sitting right now,I'll measure and see tomorrow. It's pretty low,but I don't think it's hardly that low.

I know it does, like, waaaay off. When I built the new chassis I set everything up to be sprung. With it up high everything looks okey-dokey. I whipped the springs off today just for kicks and it works so well that I'm thinking of keeping it like that.

edit: just to make things official, I went out and measured my GC.

1.5 @ full droop, 3.75 @ full extension.

[Reflection]

Originally Posted by Duuuuuuuude

edit: just to make things official, I went out and measured my GC.

1.5 @ full droop, 3.75 @ full extension.

Like I said,I'd try it around 3" at full bump. Should still side hill very well. Should give you roughly 6" under the belly when hung and the axles fall. That should help tremendously. Do some research on squat/anti squat and how to adjust it right. GOOD squat numbers are a MUST on a shaft driven rig. A bit of advise....droop and sprung set ups work better with totally different squat numbers.;)

[Duuuuuuuude]

Originally Posted by raptorman57

Like I said,I'd try it around 3" at full bump. Should still side hill very well. Should give you roughly 6" under the belly when hung and the axles fall. That should help tremendously. Do some research on squat/anti squat and how to adjust it right. GOOD squat numbers are a MUST on a shaft driven rig. A bit of advise....droop and sprung set ups work better with totally different squat numbers.;)

Full bump meaning full compression?

I've done lots of research on squat, or at least enough to leave my mind numb time and time again. I've got holes in the chassis and axle mounts to move the uppers around if I need to, but since this chassis is only a few days old, I haven't yet gotten that far.

Besides, doing everything by the book takes all the fun out of wild-ass experimentation!

edit: yup, you and I have been there already...lol

Need torque twist help...pics included...

[Reflection]

Originally Posted by Duuuuuuuude

Full bump meaning full compression?

Yeup.

[DiEzel]

Pretty sure you wouldnt be able to get away with 1 1/2" -2" of belly clearance on a super..

Hell my 2.2 has 2 7/8" at ride height.

[Duuuuuuuude]

Actually it goes pretty well, I really have no complaints other than the breakover thing.

Of course, I say all this without being able to directly compare it to anyone elses rig performance wise. All I've got to go on are my past builds.

I may have to try and upload a vid...

[Duuuuuuuude]

Took it out to the big rocks today and it does need a bit more GC, but I don't think I'll need a whole lot more. I'll try another 1/2" and retest.

Once thats done I'll get my links right, and maybe stretch the WB up closer to 17".

Here's a question: is it better to have a long or short distance between the front and rear lower link mounts on the skid? I've seen lots of different configurations...

[Espeefan]

Your shock angles look horrible. Any more angle and they'd be horizontal! Relocate the shock rod ends onto the lower links, and closer to the center of the chassis. That's your best for raising up the ride height. Keep the droop suspension set-up and you'll reap all the benefits of it's stability and clearance.

[Duuuuuuuude]

Originally Posted by Espeefan

Your shock angles look horrible. Any more angle and they'd be horizontal! Relocate the shock rod ends onto the lower links, and closer to the center of the chassis. That's your best for raising up the ride height. Keep the droop suspension set-up and you'll reap all the benefits of it's stability and clearance.

I laid them down on purpose, I like having the travel. The shock oil has been thickened considerably to slow thier action down using 40wt as a base with a specially scientifically formulated propriatary amount of 10k diff fluid.

I've got a few ways to raise ride height: shock extensions, chassis extensions, and mounting points on the axle. I had them on the links and was constantly getting hung up on them, not to mention bending them. When a 10 lb rig goes end over end, all that pressure has a way of finding weak points.

I do plan to keep the droop, or at most going semi-droop.

Thanks for the input!

[bigflex]

My 4 linked super back in the day had 5" GC and was super stable on steep climbs as well as on off camber and sidehilling. I would think 3-3.5 should be good running full droop with the short WB you are running.

[Duuuuuuuude]

Originally Posted by bigflex

My 4 linked super back in the day had 5" GC and was super stable on steep climbs as well as on off camber and sidehilling. I would think 3-3.5 should be good running full droop with the short WB you are running.

I can't seem to get that performance from mine when its that high. I would assume it has something to do with my CG (only place to put my battery is the upper links) and link placement, which I know I need to spend more time sorting out.

[Espeefan]

Originally Posted by Duuuuuuuude

I laid them down on purpose, I like having the travel. The shock oil has been thickened considerably to slow thier action down using 40wt as a base with a specially scientifically formulated propriatary amount of 10k diff fluid.

I've got a few ways to raise ride height: shock extensions, chassis extensions, and mounting points on the axle. I had them on the links and was constantly getting hung up on them, not to mention bending them. When a 10 lb rig goes end over end, all that pressure has a way of finding weak points.

I do plan to keep the droop, or at most going semi-droop.

Thanks for the input!

You like the travel? You'll get much more travel with the shocks, the more vertical, and the closer they mount, (on the lower links) to the center of the chassis. The further away from the axle the shock's lower end is mounted, the more you increase the up and down axle travel to shock travel ratio. If you think you will have to much travel, then run some fuel tube on the shock shaft to limit the shock's stroke, or some bump stops.

I know someone else already mentioned this too, but ideally, you'll want a little more vertical separation between the lower and upper 4 links, as they mount to the chassis.

Not sure what kind of axles you are running, but have you considered building a custom pack that could fit on the axle, or perhaps even on the steering knuckles?

[Duuuuuuuude]

Originally Posted by Espeefan

You like the travel? You'll get much more travel with the shocks, the more vertical, and the closer they mount, (on the lower links) to the center of the chassis. The further away from the axle the shock's lower end is mounted, the more you increase the up and down axle travel to shock travel ratio. If you think you will have to much travel, then run some fuel tube on the shock shaft to limit the shock's stroke, or some bump stops.

Two or three chassis's ago I was running Revo shocks, and they were connected to the links close to the chassis. They worked fine, but again, they were mounted to the links and I kept bending them or getting hung up. They went away in favor of a more normal size shock mounted closer to the axle.

Originally Posted by Espeefan

I know someone else already mentioned this too, but ideally, you'll want a little more vertical separation between the lower and upper 4 links, as they mount to the chassis.

I know its impossible to tell in the picture, but there are more mounting locations than what you can see. When the suspension (as it is arranged now) is at full extension, the uppers are very close to horizontal. Its funny though, I've had people say that they need more seperation, and others say that they need less, which is how they ended up where they are now.

I'l say this again; I know they are not where they probably should be. When I got this chassis done I slapped the links on and went crawling. I have not yet had a chance to do any serious tinkering. There were alot of new parts, both bought and built, this time around, and they are slowly getting sorted out. So please, and I mean this in the nicest possible way because I do appreciate the input, but no more discussions about upper link placement!

Originally Posted by Espeefan

Not sure what kind of axles you are running, but have you considered building a custom pack that could fit on the axle, or perhaps even on the steering knuckles?

The axles are custom and run Maxx diff's/Revo shafts/etc.



You can see that there is not much room to cram 6 cells on there. My packs are used in a couple different rc's, and a custom config to fit the crawler would render them nearly useless in anything else. I also take 3 or 4 packs with me when I go crawling, and unless something breaks, I will go untill they are all dead. Even if I were to take a single pack and break it up for exclusive use on the crawler, it would be a major downer. This is my toy...I want to play!

The real solution to my battery problem would be LIPO. I seriously want to make that jump, but its just not feasable yet. For now I'll have to deal with what I have.

I had a thought that I could widen my chassis a bit and stand the pack up next to the trans. Then the weight would be centralized and about as low as it could get. I need to go out and stare at it some more...

[syber70]

It really seems to me, that you aren't really asking for advice on how to improve your breakover.. People are giving you suggestions, and you just defend as to why you have it setup the way you do currently, as opposed to considering that what they're saying, may indeed give you what you want.

Change shock positions, increase your belly height. Only way to improve your break over angle, unless you go with larger tires.