New class to encourage newbs..

[Land Crab]

I am fairly new to crawling and only have been into it for 7 months now. I like to crawl, and like the scale aspect of building, finding and making stuff to make my rig(s) more realistic. And to be honest have no desire to "compete" because of the personal rivalries and politics which seem to come with competition.

IMO, as a newb....if you really want to get more people interested in this hobby, hold scale and crawling events or get together's with an emphasis on FUN, and leave the "compeition" aspect to the comp guys. Then new enthusiasts who ARE competitive will eventually migrate to the comps.

[Solitaire]

This is from someone who has never competed...but will someday. What's wrong with using what is already out there? The AX10. Make it the defacto beginners class of truck and design courses to accommodate it.

Entrants must have a stock AX10 chassis with some allowable upgrades.
- No axle widening or chassis lengthening
- Links can be upgraded
- No restrictions on motors other than they have to be a 540 can size
- Axial underdrive/overdrive diff gears allowed
- No restrictions on servo type/strength
- No restrictions on tires other than they have to be off-the-shelf. No cut-n-shuts
- No restrictions on shocks, but have to be the same length on each truck
- No weight restrictions either in lightness or heavyness
- Stock AX10 tranny with allowable steel gears
- Must employ a slipper

If everyone in this "class" stays within these boundaries it shouldn't cost a ton and each entrant will be on a similar and somewhat level playing field. Also, none of the "big boys" will want to lower themselves to compete with a lowly AX10.

Just some thoughts and I may have missed a couple of things.

[EeePee]

Cut five things from your list, and be more specific.

[Charlie-III]

OK, being "fairly new" to comp RC crawling.....but, having been in other RC competitions as well as other things, here is my $.02.

1-Chris, great thread to start.....change has to begin somewhere.
2-Money is an issue for 99% of us.
3-Most clubs/comps are run by volunteers....thus we are asking a LOT of their time (for free.......).

I think this is an issue on multiple issues, time, money, personal attitude, "support" from better club/comp members, "initial expectations" (which may be related to age).

Yes, I sorta duplicated the same idea twice.

I've competed in RC road/dirt for quite a few years.
My son got me into crawling & "introduced" me to a local crawling group (GSRCRC).

As a parent, then a competitor, I have to applaud our club.
We have people like (in no particular order) Dezmoon, Turbofest, Scatterbrains, RCRockin, Marzzz23, Art1c (sorry for any misspellings).

I saw the support from "serious comp people" towards my son, later to me as well. It was comments/discussions on course route, rig set-up, etc.

Now, I'm "competitive" (so my wife states), thus, while I may suck on a lot of courses, I see this as a challenge.
I also see the various club members having their "style" of course building.
Some make a course that a N00b can finish with a reasonable score, while others make a course that a "less than Nat's level person" will point out at some point.

Maybe some issues are the "age/expectations" of comp people that want it easy.
I also have dealt with a dirt course group that allowed many people to run rigs like the "racers" but you could compete until you did well.

This is the "beginner" class.

I have no real solution, I only have my observations.

I also spend time in soaring (flying sailplanes/gliders), I teach, fly and compete. The same issue is there, "How to make it fun for the experienced but open to the new person."

[CmdrZod]

Just a thought... but what about a "Bomber" class of sorts? A local race track (1:1) has a class like this and it is intended for new racers to compete with other new racers. Much like what is being discussed here. With this "Bomber" class they are only allowed to compete in this class for 2 years/seasons and then they must move up another class. Which they can stay in as long as they wish.

I don't see why we couldn't do something like this to help attendance at the local level. Maybe have the same rules as 2.2S but add that its for new drivers but still have the option for upgrades. i.e. links, shocks, tires, gears, motors, ESC's, etc. Much like what Solitare said...

Originally Posted by Solitaire

Entrants must have a stock AX10 chassis with some allowable upgrades.
- No axle widening or chassis lengthening
- Links can be upgraded
- No restrictions on motors other than they have to be a 540 can size
- Axial underdrive/overdrive diff gears allowed
- No restrictions on servo type/strength
- No restrictions on tires other than they have to be off-the-shelf. No cut-n-shuts
- No restrictions on shocks, but have to be the same length on each truck
- No weight restrictions either in lightness or heavyness
- Stock AX10 tranny with allowable steel gears
- Must employ a slipper

Then after there 2 years or whatever time period they could either move to the 2.2S or 2.2pro or whatever. It would get them in the door and hooked and it wouldn't limit them on having to maintain a RTR and they could upgrade along the way.


Just my take on the discussion!

[Manning]

Chris, good subject.

At our local NWARC comps, if two or more new guys show up, we'll have a class for them. Have an extra minute or two, and do 60 points instead of 40, and do the 20 point bypass deal. Then we all gang up on them and try to give driving advice while they are on course. It probably scares the willies out of some drivers....

Then course design is key. I have a rep for building tough courses, but I always try to leave a way to straddle the gate and move on. That way the new guy can move on to the next gate. Yeah, it's a 10 pt penalty. It doesn't always work out as I plan, but it's always in mind when I'm setting gates. I probably do need to mellow out on the first 3-5 gates, huh Hoghead?

The last comp we had was at a new place that we've never comped at before. We overestimated the traction, by quite a bit in places. On the first course, the first two guys struggled with the 4th gate. I called it off and stacked rocks, and had those two guys run over again. At club level comps, this is an option. If it becomes apparent that the gate is too difficult and there's no way to straddle, fix it. But one has to make that decision quick.

[EverettY]

What I think is we should come up with a way to classify a "newb" and then they can drive whatever crawler they have providing it's a 2.2 it could be a full blown XR10 or an AX10 The XR10 would most likely do better but.....Or you could have to "newb" classes one for MOA's and one for Shaftys.

[bandit1]

Originally Posted by hoghead5150

i think your missing the point. most new guys are still in sticker shock after dropping $500 or more to get into the sport. buying a rtr rig $350, charger $100, batteries $50. then they show up at a comp and find out that they are not anywhere near able to do the things they hoped for. their box stock rigs are good for playing around the house or with a couple friends but in the comp scene they are gonna have to spend another $400 to get competitive.

most people out there don't have the extra money to drop a grand on a hobby just to see if they like it knowing full well that if they don't they won't be able to get half their investment back if they sell out. a class for box stock (or close to it) would allow the newer guys to grow into the sport. i don't think this would hurt aftermarket support, i think it would help it. after running the rig the need or want to tackle harder obstacles always comes. it would also allow more of a learning curve allowing the new guys to see what works and what doesn't. better rigs would be built and more knowledge would be had.

it sucks to finish last EVERY time you run. there is no fun always being at the bottom. if you don't believe that, go buy a bone stock rtr ax10 and comp it in the pro class. i bet you don't have a very good time at all.

I did not read the entire thread, but I am a newb, dont even have a rig yet cuz of the cost issue, but what is said here I can relate to in another way. I own a Jeep Cherokee, and stock it can do more than I am ready to do, but I already have the desire to modify it and make more capable than it already is.

I can see this being the same for me when and if I get an RC. I would agree that there should be a beginer type class for folks like myself. Just about every sport has some sort of beginners class where you can have fun and learn the skills and what not of that particular sport. Why would this one be any different?

[ev0l]

I don't know about most clubs, but in ours head counts aren't exactly high. starting another class wouldn't really work for us. I think if you show your new folks a good time, welcome them in and help them out you will nurture more drivers.

Sportsman coarses are more fun than challenging and we don't limit who can run the class. Sporty has the lowest price barrier to entry so it seems like a logical starting point. 1.9 losi is gaining in popularity at our events and has even brought some "retired" compers back off the sidelines.

I'll restate my earlier point, if you make it fun, people will come and stick around.

As far as burn out you cant do much about that. We try to spice things up by having all kinds of different events to keep it interesting. It seems to be working because our club is growing

[PFC FNG]

I have not competed. But two of my lhs' have rock courses for fun/practice. From what I see, it is almost all mindset of the driver. Some people want to learn and improve, and those are the ones that tend to stick around. Others want to throw money at a "toy" or a temporary interest but do not want to invest the time to learn. I wouldn't mind an entry level class in a comp, but I don't plan on pushing for one when I start trying my hand at competing. I want to learn, through trial and error. Error generally provides the best lessons. Again, just my thoughts.

[opek]

Originally Posted by PFC FNG

I have not competed. But two of my lhs' have rock courses for fun/practice. From what I see, it is almost all mindset of the driver. Some people want to learn and improve, and those are the ones that tend to stick around. Others want to throw money at a "toy" or a temporary interest but do not want to invest the time to learn. I wouldn't mind an entry level class in a comp, but I don't plan on pushing for one when I start trying my hand at competing. I want to learn, through trial and error. Error generally provides the best lessons. Again, just my thoughts.

And you are already going to comp. This thread is about all those people who aren't you, and who will not come out and comp when they get rickrolled by excellent drivers, very well set up rigs, and difficult courses.

At my first comp I pointed out on gate 5 or something. I was like what? I don't get to finish the course? It's over? I'm done? If I wasn't me I'd have ignored courses 2 and 3 and gone home... but I am me and this thread isn't about me!

[KBrog]

Kinder Kourses?

GTG's are for practice.

Comps are for showing what you learned.

[papabash]

I've really been concerned about how much lower our numbers are this year, so it does me good to know ours isn't the only club with this problem. We have discussed having some sort of "beginner" class, but we always come back to the same concerns:

1. The same small group of people set up courses, judge, welcome newcomers, etc, etc, while still competing in from 1 to 3 different classes. Adding another class is just too work and time intensive when you are already running from course to course.

2. When new people come to us and show an interest in joining, it is almost always AFTER they have already purchased a rig. They may have bought an AX10, XR10, mini, LCC, Off-brand something-or-other, or even a scaler. At this point it is too late to invite them to a spec class where only one type of rig is allowed.

3. Adding a 4th class (our club currently offers 2.2, 1.9, and scale) would draw the newer people away from our other classes where they are currently running, leaving us with barely enough for a comp in certain classes.

Our attempt at a solution has been to try to set up the courses in progressively harder configurations. That way, the beginners can usually complete at least the first course, while the veterans have the later courses to challenge them. We also let the newer drivers go ahead and finish the courses after they point out. By doing this, they at least get some wheel time, and get to experience the more difficult sections just for fun. This seems to be the best solution we've found for our smaller sized club, at least to this point.

[KnoJa]

We also let the newer drivers go ahead and finish the courses after they point out. By doing this, they at least get some wheel time, and get to experience the more difficult sections just for fun. This seems to be the best solution we've found for our smaller sized club, at least to this point.

That's cool!
I'm that noob that has dumped money into my rig. I have no illusions that because I have 1000+ into my rig that it's going to put me at or evn near the top. It take time.

What is disconcerting is that with one comp left in the season, I have as of yet finished a course. Came close once... Like 3/4 of my rig over the finish line when time ran out (it was by far the easiest course yet!!!)

I understand that the top drivers need a challenge, but how am I to learn if i can't get past gate 6 or 7 on every single course?

The guys in our area are great. They will point on what a driver should do while on course.

I still think that a pro drivers should adopt a noob for one season. If the newbie is having trouble the top dog could help, instead of 3 or 4 guys standing around saying what I should do.

[Duuuuuuuude]

Originally Posted by C*H*U*D

The problem I see with a box stock class is durability. Many of the parts out there aren't just performance enhancers, but also add strength. I get more frustrated if my truck breaks every outing, then I do finishing last.

The problem I see is that race vehicles are engineered and designed to win and be fairly durable, crawlers are not. For the most part they are designed with the knowledge that a good portion of it will end up tucked away in a box or even in the trash in favor of better or custom made parts.

My AX-10 ARTR cost more than my brushless SC10 RTR, and the SC10 is waaaaay more durable and competitive out of the box.

Originally Posted by EeePee

Pretty much nailed it as to how the conversation went in the first talk of this Spec class idea that I can remember.

When I rode trials, all new riders to the sport started in novice class. After 2 wins in the season, you got force bumped to Amateur. After a few wins in Amateur, you got force bumped to Expert. If the committee decided you were sandbagging, you got force bumped.

Originally Posted by Manning

Chris, good subject.

At our local NWARC comps, if two or more new guys show up, we'll have a class for them. Have an extra minute or two, and do 60 points instead of 40, and do the 20 point bypass deal. Then we all gang up on them and try to give driving advice while they are on course. It probably scares the willies out of some drivers....

The last comp we had was at a new place that we've never comped at before. We overestimated the traction, by quite a bit in places. On the first course, the first two guys struggled with the 4th gate. I called it off and stacked rocks, and had those two guys run over again. At club level comps, this is an option. If it becomes apparent that the gate is too difficult and there's no way to straddle, fix it. But one has to make that decision quick.

My first comp was with NWARC, and it was great. I got pointers and driving tips all day long. I still came in second to last, but I didn't care. I had fun, everyone was friendly, and in no way did I expect to compete on the same level as more experienced drivers. This has more to do with whether or not someone new to the game stays around more than whether or not there is a class that caters specifically to new drivers.

[klabeaume]

In stead of making 2 or 3 new classes for beginner Moa and beginner shafties etc, why not just let newer drivers run a beginner class. Some guys show up at our club with pro trucks and zero drive time. Adding a class for "run what you brung" beginners would allow guys to learn the rules, learn their trucks and learn how to drive and tune. This class shouldn't be nationally regignized either. Just a fun class with lax courses and times. I've seen people show up with 1500 bucks in a rig and competed with us. They didn't do well and struggled with almost all our courses. He wouldn't want to sell his rig and down grade to a rtr to fit in the spec class. We should just allow them to run in a beginners class. Once they win so many times they get bumped to the 2.2 pro class or sportsman if their rig fits. Also making the beginner class un recognized would keep the pro drivers from stepping in and killing the entire purpose of the class. My dad comps with us, he doesn't give a crap about nationals, he comes out to have fun. I've built him a full pro berg, dual Esc's 3pk etc. Even he gets discourage from not finishing or spending all 4 min in one gate betting the hell out of his rig. It's not fun for him or people watching either. It's not FUN! But I bet he'd love a lax course that he could just calm down and drive, get some time and confidince to compete at a higher level. Sorry if this is choppy or has spelling errors. I am on my phone, but the point it there.

[AX10wannabe]

Originally Posted by Solitaire

This is from someone who has never competed...but will someday. What's wrong with using what is already out there? The AX10. Make it the defacto beginners class of truck and design courses to accommodate it.

Entrants must have a stock AX10 chassis with some allowable upgrades.
- No axle widening or chassis lengthening
- Links can be upgraded
- No restrictions on motors other than they have to be a 540 can size
- Axial underdrive/overdrive diff gears allowed
- No restrictions on servo type/strength
- No restrictions on tires other than they have to be off-the-shelf. No cut-n-shuts
- No restrictions on shocks, but have to be the same length on each truck
- No weight restrictions either in lightness or heavyness
- Stock AX10 tranny with allowable steel gears
- Must employ a slipper

If everyone in this "class" stays within these boundaries it shouldn't cost a ton and each entrant will be on a similar and somewhat level playing field. Also, none of the "big boys" will want to lower themselves to compete with a lowly AX10.

Just some thoughts and I may have missed a couple of things.

i agree with this^^^

here is my .02

i dont comp but i might try it once of twice with some friends but thats about it... but i think if you make a set of rules like what was mentioned in the quote it would be fair. put all the noobs into a class and dont let the pro class guys run with them.. also when they register or whatever do a tech inspection of the rig to make sure its within the rules.. physically go up grab the rig and look at it, you only gotta do this once, once the rig has been inspected its good for the year unless he's modded it lots and is eligible for the next class up.

i race lawnmowers (as i've mentioned a lot of RCC) and we have a set of rules and we all stick to them, if a new guy shows up with a mower we do a tech inspection and look the mower over to make sure its within the rules.. if we dont like something on your mower we'll tell you to fix it.. if its a quick fix we'll do it at the track or in the pits if its not we'll tell you, you can race but if you dont have it fixed next time you show up your not racing.. simple as that.. we'll bend the rules a little bit but its something that you have to be firm about. we have time trials.. everyone gets a warm up lap, timed lap then a cool down lap and you get put into "heats" according to your lap time. my cousin started racing last year and he's usually with the newbies but one race he was competitive with the big boys so he got stuck with the big boys and got his ass handed to him.... told him... well buddy shit happens..

us guys that have been racing awhile help out the newbies as much as we can. if we see something that doesnt look right or isnt working we'll go up to the new guy and tell him. we also camp alot on race weekends and we tell the newbies to come out pack up the camper, the wife/girlfriend, kids, some food and lots of beer and come camping with us for the weekend to see what our club is actually about. we like to pick on each other tip a few beers back and have fun. we all help each other out. these mowers arent light 300+lbs and we tip them on their sides to put on a belt and its no fun holding a mower with one hand and trying to put on a belt with the other so its nice having someone come over and hold it for you.

back to crawling-

i have a friend that comps he's got a modded ax10 and he's one of those guys that tells you enough info to get you started then let's you figure it out on your own. i've been crawling for over a year now but it pisses me off somedays because i dont know enough about link geometry and stuff like that yet but if you ask him a question he'll help you out.. he wants us to get up to his level so he's finding that he has to spill some more beans and let us know his tricks

we have a little group that gets together every 2 weeks at a friends house and its just a day of fun but we have gates too. i dont have a lot of patience and focus for anything i do and so i jump from project to project alot so when im crawling if we have 12 gates by gate 6 my patience is gone and the thumb gets heavier on the throttle which in turn doesnt help my score but thats the way it goes. i dumped a bunch of money into my ax10 when i first bought i've put maybe 60 bucks into since mid january.. why?? because i wanna learn how to drive that sumbitch

just about done haha its getting long but i think you need to set some rules and stick to them and then toss all the newbies in one class like i said before. if they show up with a bone stock rig let them crawl/compete, suggest to them what the minimum upgrades are, tell/show them what works and what doesnt. i dont understand why all the hot shots are tight asses about their secrets.. like who the **** cares if another guy uses your idea or mod. about the cost- shitty part about a hobby, if someone cant afford something the hobby is the first one to get cut, whether it be rc, racing mowers, jetskis, snowboard, waterski, boating.. thats how life is.

ok im done now thats not bad.. only about 50mins to type this up!!!!

[Charlie-III]

Originally Posted by papabash

I've really been concerned about how much lower our numbers are this year, so it does me good to know ours isn't the only club with this problem. We have discussed having some sort of "beginner" class, but we always come back to the same concerns:

1. The same small group of people set up courses, judge, welcome newcomers, etc, etc, while still competing in from 1 to 3 different classes. Adding another class is just too work and time intensive when you are already running from course to course.

2. When new people come to us and show an interest in joining, it is almost always AFTER they have already purchased a rig. They may have bought an AX10, XR10, mini, LCC, Off-brand something-or-other, or even a scaler. At this point it is too late to invite them to a spec class where only one type of rig is allowed.

3. Adding a 4th class (our club currently offers 2.2, 1.9, and scale) would draw the newer people away from our other classes where they are currently running, leaving us with barely enough for a comp in certain classes.

Our attempt at a solution has been to try to set up the courses in progressively harder configurations. That way, the beginners can usually complete at least the first course, while the veterans have the later courses to challenge them. We also let the newer drivers go ahead and finish the courses after they point out. By doing this, they at least get some wheel time, and get to experience the more difficult sections just for fun. This seems to be the best solution we've found for our smaller sized club, at least to this point.

Originally Posted by ev0l

I don't know about most clubs, but in ours head counts aren't exactly high. starting another class wouldn't really work for us. I think if you show your new folks a good time, welcome them in and help them out you will nurture more drivers.

Sportsman courses are more fun than challenging and we don't limit who can run the class. Sporty has the lowest price barrier to entry so it seems like a logical starting point. 1.9 Losi is gaining in popularity at our events and has even brought some "retired" compers back off the sidelines.

I'll restate my earlier point, if you make it fun, people will come and stick around.

As far as burn out you cant do much about that. We try to spice things up by having all kinds of different events to keep it interesting. It seems to be working because our club is growing

+1 to both of these....actually lots of great comments here. I could spend an hour quoting other posts.

We have a small group, smaller now than 2 years ago when my son started.

Time is an issue, cost of comping is another.

Little by little, we have dropped "classes" due to the workload of the "core guys that do everything" (I appreciate their work, I try to help time, etc. to spread the work).

I also agree some is the attitude of the driver. I was overjoyed last year when I finished my 1st course and had the scorer save my score sheet.
I was also overjoyed when I received my 1st "-" score on a course, I also saved that score-sheet.

For those of that know them, I run with the GSRCRC guys, people like Scatterbrains, Turbofest, RCrockin, Marzzz23, Dezmoon, etc., these are Nat's guys. Turbo runs a 2.2 course with a Sportsman truck and beats my score when I run a 2.2 Bully.
It sorta pisses me off, but also gives me something worthwhile to shoot for.
Again, it's partly the attitude of the driver.

A beginners class could be good, but I only see it as a lot more work for the few that put these events on. I sorta don't think it's fair to them in a small club/group.
On the other hand, if we don't do something to bring in/keep newbs, we will likely never get big.
"Damned if you do, damned if you don't".

We used to run 3 full classes (1.9, 2.2 & super) but most comps only run 2 due to entrants. Supers has dropped down. We have talked about maybe a scale class or something similar since a few have dropped out of comps but now run scale.

[JeremyH]

Originally Posted by Manning

Then course design is key. I have a rep for building tough courses, but I always try to leave a way to straddle the gate and move on. That way the new guy can move on to the next gate. Yeah, it's a 10 pt penalty. It doesn't always work out as I plan, but it's always in mind when I'm setting gates. I probably do need to mellow out on the first 3-5 gates, huh Hoghead?

We operate our club in the same way. When new guys come out, we ease up on the course design.

I have also been thinking about this quite a bit lately and think I might have come up with a solution (at least for our club).

The 5 gate, 5 bonus setup (one gate, one bonus, one gate, one bonus..etc.). This setup allows for new guys to finish the required gates and then start attempting the bonus gates. Pro drivers who are wanting to win know that they need to do the bonus gates and will go for those. This helps everyone work on their time management skills AND practice with national level style course setups.

[OKJeepin]

Let me stir the pot...

Looks like we got some guys on here that are "suck it up newb and learn to drive!"
Then the new guys who just want to have fun at a comp with the rigs they bought and modded.
..and guys that are interested in upping the amount of people at their local comp.
As a new person to the comp scene I have no illusions as to bringing home a 1st place win, or a 2nd, or so on...
If a club is looking to make the courses more "newb" friendly, then throw 'em a bone. Make the course(s) easier to complete 1/2 the gates, then the last half could be "pro" level to challenge the better drivers and give the newer people something to strive for.
Most people don't have the money, time, patience, skill, knowledge, or fortitude to endure years of competing to be able to complete a course.
Come on guys, they are RC trucks meant to play and have fun with, nothing more.

I'm not gonna roll into town as a new guy with my $1500 rig and steal your thunder, I promise! Those that have seen me drive can attest to that!

I just wanna give props to the pro level drivers that I have met, they will go out of there way to help, instruct, and assist new guys like myself in any way they can. Chad, Mike, CD, Ashton, Shane, and the rest of you guys I can't think of right now, thanks!

The guys that make the "rules" at their local comp can fix this, but its up to them if they want to grow their clubs.