brushed vs. brushless video battle to settle the debate

[stevem50]

i made this suggestion in another thread from a guy trying to choose a new motor to finally settle the BUYING debate. i propose a tufftruck series of events all videoed and open to ALL electric trucks and all power systems to find out the best all around set up FOR YOU TO CHOOSE once and for all. is a scx on 1.55's with a 55t brushed or a 3500kv powered 2.2 wraith really GOING TO MAKE a better all around runner???

i think there needs to be some kind of tuff truck comp to settle this on youtube, we video our runs and post them so as to make a "national", open to all who want to participate. perhaps an tractor pull style first, then maybe a set incline, say a 12ft 2x12 at 45 degree angle that you need to climb as slow as possible. like reverse drag racing, longest e.t. without stall or cogging wins, 3rd event would be a true drag race.(e.t. over measured 132 ft) all done the way they run "true street" events for full size cars. once you begin, no popping the hood. one continuous camera shot detailing drivetrain, battery, and then the run. no switching batterys, NO EDITING. we would only need to come up with 3 or 4 standardized events that wouldnt cost too much for all of us to replicate.

who is in?

[stevem50]

was it not seen, not cared to settle, or just plain not worth the time to find out brushed motors are weaker?

with as many posts here on the wide world of interweb about how brushless motors will cog and stop working when wet and yadda yadda yadda i thought there would be at least 1 person willing to take this challenge.

i have noticed a common theme in all the posts i have read about this topic. nobody speaks from current experience...its all "when i had a sensored brushless 10 years ago" "i heard" "i read online" and "this guy says". get a new sensorless 3660 can brushless and never cog or replace brushes again. and whats the misconception that you need sensored? the only people i see run sensored motors on purpose are the guys running 17.5 stock class sct's

this is probably gonna piss off a few people, but there are a lot of chatter, and now nobody volenteering to throw a hat in the ring and prove the mighty brushed motor dominant. if there is really a stronger setup, lets get a standardized unit of measure and make a comparison of the current technology

[Meatwad]

I'm thinking it's interest, physics and motor design can't be disputed. It is what it is.

[stevem50]

i guess ill go scrap the motors in all my trucks and go get the same motor that has been coming in tamiya kits since 1985. by the logic here i should also yank the ls out of my 1:1 chevy and drop in a flathead with a stromberg 2 barrel and some sweet cast iron exhaust manifolds. old stuff is cool and nostalgia is fun, but technology evolves...

[6sharky9]

My experience with brushed and brushless in a racing environment is the brushed worked better for me on a shorter track and brushless on longer tracks...To me that said the brushed motor made more low end torque or more useable low rpm torque if I may.

The short time ive been in the crawler/scale world having remembered how I can push a brushless motor wheel over by hand with not much effort vs I cant even get my wheels to turn by hand without "helping it by turning the spur gear to get me started" is the brushed will most certainly have more holding power on an incline..Sensored is a more smooth start of power vs non sensored; a non uniform start of power.

That's my take on the subject.

EDIT:....I can place my truck on an extreme angle with no power at all (meaning no battery power or drag brake to help me.) and the truck wheels will not move..The entire truck may slip on the surface but my wheels don't move.

Stock Axial AE2 ESC, 27T brushed mod motor, 87T spur gear with a 16T pinion. (2s battery) 1.9 ripsaws

[Meatwad]

Whoa whoa, I'm not trying to offend. Its about facts not feelings.

Sensorless motors don't know where to start being that its lacking a sensor, so its searching for position. There's no question that most BL motors are more powerful than brushed motors. However some handwounds are just as powerful as cheaper 2 pole bl motors.

My opinion, take the rc out of the picture and bench test the motors hooked to some type of torque wrench. That would also work for the sensorless cogging question...

Maybe lay out a more scientific approach and some will tend to latch on.

[Corrupt]

Umm.. I personally use BL motors for just brutal speed and grunt power. Brushed motors for low end finesse and torque. Yes, BL motors can be smooth.. but IMO, I like the low end feel of a brushed motor more. The BL motor just feels like it wants more power and it's not satisfied creeping at low speeds.. I mean, there's a reason brushed motors are so popular in the crawler world and BL motors so popular in the go fast world. Wanna see brushed motors kicking butt? Watch a video of a crawler with a HH or a Team Brood motor. Wanna see a video of a brushless motor's raw power? Watch a video of a Savage Flux.

Just my opinion.

-Corrupt

[stevem50]

a missed part of the equation here is gearing.smaller pinion and bigger spur in a b/l rig. the reason i am arguing the point is from performance in a properly set up rig. from one motor to the other gearing will change. use lower kv motor, somewhere in the 1000-2200kv range to keep respectable torque and relatively flat powerband. program esc for appropriate use, drag brake, power curve, boost, and accelleration bump. then watch as a brushed motor truck will struggle and hop as it claws for traction and then a brushless truck will pop on launch and blow over the same obsticle, if traction to creep isnt available.

same line, same truck, just a different driving style is available to you as a driver.

look to the 1:1 rigs... how many diesels do you really see on the trail. ill tell you- maybe 1 in 25. you dont see them because they are heavier, and more complicated to get the same power. after 4 jeeps and a ls swapped k series chevy ill stay gas no matter what the diesel guys do with their turbos on the street.

my beef with brushed motors isnt that i dont think they can work well when set up correctly, its that they are a pain in the ass! a decent, cheap brushless will give similar performance for less money, and you dont need to fool with them... ever. unless you mulch a bearing, they work, and work more efficiently. and a sensorless is waterproof. i got a wraith that doubles as a submarine on a 3 year old motor

[stevem50]

the more i think about it the more it reminds me of the campfire argument of whether a 1:1 old school carburated small block is better than a new school fuel injected one. if you arent familliar with the setup of both, the one YOU dont know sucks, and it will continue to be inferior untill you get familliar with it.

[6sharky9]

Reason you need steeper gears in a brushless is because it doesn't make the same torque as a brushed motor down low..so you need to gear it more aggressive.

A good 1:1 comparison would be 2 f-150 trucks..one has a 302 v8 and the other a 300 ci inline 6....Id put my money on that inline 6 as it produces more torque at lower rpms than that v8

jeeps are great off road performers for the same reason..inline 6 power and light weight.

I compare a good brushed motor to an inline 6 and the brushless to a v8..both have advantages in certain areas.
...to eaches own I suppose.

[6sharky9]

And the argument of carb vs fuel injection has been tested and proven already...EFI generated more torque were the best carbed set ups make more top end at higher rpm than the EFI set up.

for off road use its hard to beat efi though..sucks going up a hill and you lose fuel and stall..guess that fuel baffle didn't work to well inside the carb..lol

EFI equals Brushed
Carbed equals brushless

[Meatwad]

Originally Posted by stevem50

a missed part of the equation here is gearing.smaller pinion and bigger spur in a b/l rig. the reason i am arguing the point is from performance in a properly set up rig. from one motor to the other gearing will change. use lower kv motor, somewhere in the 1000-2200kv range to keep respectable torque and relatively flat powerband. program esc for appropriate use, drag brake, power curve, boost, and accelleration bump. then watch as a brushed motor truck will struggle and hop as it claws for traction and then a brushless truck will pop on launch and blow over the same obsticle, if traction to creep isnt available.

same line, same truck, just a different driving style is available to you as a driver.

look to the 1:1 rigs... how many diesels do you really see on the trail. ill tell you- maybe 1 in 25. you dont see them because they are heavier, and more complicated to get the same power. after 4 jeeps and a ls swapped k series chevy ill stay gas no matter what the diesel guys do with their turbos on the street.

my beef with brushed motors isnt that i dont think they can work well when set up correctly, its that they are a pain in the ass! a decent, cheap brushless will give similar performance for less money, and you dont need to fool with them... ever. unless you mulch a bearing, they work, and work more efficiently. and a sensorless is waterproof. i got a wraith that doubles as a submarine on a 3 year old motor

So brushless motors can be faster... That's a given.

Brushed motors will require some maintenance at some point... That's also a given.

Whats the premise of this proposed video?

[Duuuuuuuude]

It's not about gearing or voltage or anything else, it's about design and mechanics.

It is the physical contact of the brushes and armature of the brushed motor that gives them exceptional low end control. Brushless motors do not have that constant (or any) contact, so they don't have the same amount of control.

Granted, brushless motors and escs have come a long way in the past few years, and they are getting closer to the low speed capabilities of brushed, but they aren't quite there yet.

My first comp crawler setup (4 or so years ago) was a Sidewinder and a non-sensored brushless HH Revolver. At the time it was a pretty good setup, and the motor was very strong, but put it in a bind, roll into the throttle to get it loose, and it would just sit there and chatter.

My latest venture (this spring) into brushless crawling was a sensored 17.5 motor and BH esc. It was a vastly improved experience, partially because the esc programming has advanced over the old Sidewinders, and partly because of the sensor in the motor telling the esc exactly where the rotor was positioned so that it could apply power properly. Still, there was a bit of a stall when bound up, but nothing near as bad as it used to be. Would I use it in a comp rig? No. That fine level of low speed, minimum throttle was not there. Plus, after about an hour of pulling comp style lines and abuse, I burned the motor up.

Brushed motors still have a very solid place in crawling, it just depends on what you want to do. You simply cannot get the same level of precision with a brushless motor.

[Meatwad]

I comp my c3 sensored brushless rig in g6 style events, taking the man line through the water all day. Would I run it in 10 gater events? Nope, got a c2 brushed rig for that.

A place for everything and everything in its place...

[Duuuuuuuude]

Originally Posted by Meatwad

I comp my c3 sensored brushless rig in g6 style events, taking the man line through the water all day. Would I run it in 10 gater events? Nope, got a c2 brushed rig for that.

A place for everything and everything in its place...

I'm putting a brushless system in my Wraith. If I feel the need to take it for some serious crawling, I've got a brushed setup for that too.

[6sharky9]

if I want speed I send my timing way up and put the stock 20t pinion back on it...flat out leaves the stock 27t in the dust...I may do a speed video of it....Even with my 16T and below -5 degrees of timing I still out run the stock motor/gear set up...used a stock rubicon unlimited for comparison amd it has taller tires to boot..lol

[Duuuuuuuude]

My old 10 lb Bronco ran a brushed 27 on 3s. Burned up after 3 packs of going fast. So did the one after that, and the one after that.

Put a VXL in it and on asphalt it would pull wheelies, wrinkle the 2.2 Rok Lok sidewalls, and do wheel stands. It also snapped axle shafts and ripped apart suspension links.

[Harley]

If you think one is the best setup, then you don't know enough.

There is no such thing as an all-arounder in reality. No matter what, you will favor the benefits of one style over another. I can setup a course where brushed motors will have an advantage over brushless and vice versa.

You just have to be smart enough to know when the advantages of one out weigh the benefits of the other.

[322]

Are you trolling? It sounds like you are looking for an argument here. Like Harley said different set ups for different situations. I run a Tekin brushless in my wrexo and a 35 turn holmes on my wraith both on 3s. Totally different ideas and purposes behind both rigs, i wouldn't enjoy either one as much if the engines are switched because they serve a certain purpose. I am not sure of your intentions with this post.

[Joshs4x4toyz]

I confused why there needs to be YouTube vids of such events.... I'm pretty sure that's what the comp scene is for. Its for REAL life competition and take a look at what the top guys are mostly running for a set up. Put your brushless moa (or do you not have one?) on the rocks and see how ya hang. Then go and run a g6 or ttc (like your proposal) which you will find brushless a little more common. I am all for brushless power and fun but my brushed comp rigs drive exactly the same everytime and will hold any line.

Hate to beat a dead horse but right tool for the right job. Seriously though, compete in local comps if you wanna see what everyone knows, happy crawlin