torque twist/counter rotation unit question

[steven318is]

hi ive got a question if any body can help, its in regards to torque twist and counter rotation units is there a simple way to do it and whats every body using any help would be great

[valheru]

Personally, on both my Wraith and my Slickrock, I use a rear sway bar setup to control torque twist.

[mikemcE]

I'm running a front sway bar on my wraith, none in the rear. I have a long shock setup so have loads of flex. My sway bar allows me to pop the corner if I need to clear a rock, but doesn't limit my flex and travel



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[WHITE-TRASH]

The CheezBerger from dluxfab.com not only does the counter rotation but also overdrive the front output a bit. It kills torque twist completely.

I've been running one since September of last year and its been flawless.

[EeePee]

Counter rotation units make no sense why they should work. All it's doing is spinning the driveshaft the other way, which is still trying to climb the ring gear, which is still causing the torque twist. Sway bars are just a band aid for bad link geometry, and a poor ring gear/pinion ratio.

[WHITE-TRASH]

You don't have to believe it peepee, just know that it works.

Rowdy is running one in his monster truck and loving it, there are CheezBergers in most every type of rig imaginable.

[EeePee]

The idea isn't new. Long ago people added pinions to the outside of the gearbox to spin the rear shaft the other way (and flipped the rear axle over). Did nothing. Why? Because there's no explanation or reason why it would work. It's like saying you never get torque twist when going in reverse. And that's not true.

If you could come up with a fair reason, it would be, because now the torque twist has an affect on the tires on the same side of the truck, forcing the front right down while the torque twist is forcing the rear right down. Instead of the left rear. But the action is still there. Take weight off the front, like in a climb that's very vertical, and it's still going to be there.

[WHITE-TRASH]

At the very steepest angle my rig equipped with the CheezBerger will hold the front left tire flat rather than lift it away from the climb. Between the good geometry, overdrive and counter rotation my rental has zero torque twist. My main rig, El pinko has the same geometry, tires & wheels, axles etc etc and it will lift the front right when the rental will stay flat. I built 2 nearly identical rigs to test the trans long before it was released and it just works.

I wouldn't call a sway bar a bandaid either. I'm sure you had them on your ricer back in the day, why? The same principles apply to offroad as they do on road.

[mikemcE]

That's why I only run one bar.
Both just killed the ability to plant corners , but the front only makes it desirable rather than a fault


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[EeePee]

Originally Posted by WHITE-TRASH

At the very steepest angle my rig equipped with the CheezBerger will hold the front left tire flat rather than lift it away from the climb.

Then it should do the same in reverse without the counter rotation unit... if you built a truck for reverse action. But it won't. The only plausible reason is forcing the same side tires down and that's only if the climb isn't taking weight off the front.

Originally Posted by WHITE-TRASH

I'm sure you had them on your ricer back in the day, why? The same principles apply to offroad as they do on road.

I have one on the rear only of the Honda for one simple reason, to lift the inside tire up as the rear outside tire gets up in the fender. That's what sway bars do. The connect the two sides. They lift the inside tire up. They're supposed to be the last little tweak after you get the rest of the suspension sorted, and they're supposed to be as thin as possible, or you need to address spring rates more (ride quality notwithstanding). On the FWD cars, the idea is to intentionally lift the inside tire, reducing traction, which then allows the car to rotate more.

On toy trucks, what's happening is you think you're reducing torque twist because as the one side is compressing, the sway bar is doing its torsional thing, and lifting up the other side also.

[WHITE-TRASH]

Originally Posted by EeePee

Then it should do the same in reverse without the counter rotation unit... if you built a truck for reverse action. But it won't. The only plausible reason is forcing the same side tires down and that's only if the climb isn't taking weight off the front.

Suspension geometry is different when built for forward or reverse driving so of course things are going to react differently. Anti squat, roll center etc are drastically different for the front vs rear.

Originally Posted by EeePee

I have one on the rear only of the Honda for one simple reason, to lift the inside tire up as the rear outside tire gets up in the fender. That's what sway bars do. The connect the two sides. They lift the inside tire up. They're supposed to be the last little tweak after you get the rest of the suspension sorted, and they're supposed to be as thin as possible, or you need to address spring rates more (ride quality notwithstanding). On the FWD cars, the idea is to intentionally lift the inside tire, reducing traction, which then allows the car to rotate more.

On toy trucks, what's happening is you think you're reducing torque twist because as the one side is compressing, the sway bar is doing its torsional thing, and lifting up the other side also.

On toy trucks an anti roll bar is doing exactly what we think it is doing because that's what it is designed to do. Same as in every other application running one. You just don't like them for whatever reason so here you are preaching against them. Carry on with your bad self.


And for the record I don't have a sway bar on any of my rigs but I do understand their usefullness.

[EeePee]

I said, if you built a truck for reverse action.

Swaybars only came around recently with these go fast U4 trucks bouncing rock racers. Crawlers don't need them.

[mikemcE]

I guess I better take mine off then , but then it does twist uncontrollably...


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[BigSki]

Originally Posted by EeePee

Counter rotation units make no sense why they should work. All it's doing is spinning the driveshaft the other way, which is still trying to climb the ring gear, which is still causing the torque twist. Sway bars are just a band aid for bad link geometry, and a poor ring gear/pinion ratio.

If you have 1 pinion trying to climb the ring gear and the opposite pinion pushing down on the ring gear, the opposing forces cancel each other out. Prime example was when I built my 6x6, the middle dual output axle spun the same direction as the front diffy, the rear drive axle was turned upside down because of the way the rear pinion was turning. That truck literally had NO turk twist.

I've wondered if the pinions pointed straight up into the air and used some sort of right angle gear box to feed the power if that would eliminate TT.

[EeePee]

But what if there's very little, to no weight on the front? It can't counteract the rear.

[BigSki]

Originally Posted by EeePee

But what if there's very little, to no weight on the front? It can't counteract the rear.

Id imagine that even if the tires leave the surface the opposing rotation of the drive shaft ( the energy that's in it ) would still have an influence on counter acting the twisting motion, I don't know for sure. This is just speculation.

[WHITE-TRASH]

Originally Posted by BigSki

Id imagine that even if the tires leave the surface the opposing rotation of the drive shaft ( the energy that's in it ) would still have an influence on counter acting the twisting motion, I don't know for sure. This is just speculation.

When I get nearly vertical the front axle stays level relative to the chassis, sure it will come over backwards since nothing beats gravity when coupled with rear tire traction but it doesn't peal one tire off the rock first like a non counter rotating setup does.

[BDR]

Originally Posted by EeePee

Swaybars only came around recently with these go fast U4 trucks bouncing rock racers. Crawlers don't need them.

Sorry mate, they are useful on crawlers as well as any thing else, might be a 'bandaid' fix, but if it works

Plenty of gear in this caper is not NEEDED, swaybars aint in that list

[steven318is]

thanks guys what would be the best wat to speed up the front axles with a transfer case

[makya]

Originally Posted by steven318is

thanks guys what would be the best wat to speed up the front axles with a transfer case

The only way I know of to speed up the front axle over the rear through the transmission or transfer case is with a maxbonv mod kit for the vaterra 2 speed transmission

EDIT: duh, or the Cheezburger W.T. posted earlier. either way, you're going through the transmission and not a transfer case.