Heavy scale crawler comp class 2H?

[Inspector86]

Let me start by saying that after watching a number of scale RC crawling comps, specifically class 2, these events strike me as a bit of an oxymoron. People spend countless hours working on the tiniest details to make their rigs look like the real deal 1:1 rigs in an effort to earn style points. But then you see those same rigs running a crawler course and at 5-6lbs they are bouncing around like light weight toys, they are climbing obstacles that no 1:1 rigs would ever even attempt and are being driven in a manor that no 1:1 rigs would or even could be driven. In general, these scale rigs do not move even remotely like a 1:1 vehicle would. I find the way these rigs move to be a turn off for me and nothing that I'm interested in.

I have a TRX-4 which is ballasted to the point it moves over the terrain with wheel and body movements that mimic very closely those of a normal 1:1 vehicle would exhibit. It currently weighs in at just a tick under 11lbs and as such is not competitive. But, on the other hand, I have had a number of people comment on how realistic it looks as it moves over the terrain. To my mind this is how a scale crawler should move over the terrain. I have been told that the TRX-4 is "laughably bad" for crawling comps which I can accept given the light weight of a typical class 2 rig. But now I'm thinking that maybe these events should consider adding a heavy weight class with a minimum weight requirement of say 10lbs for those of us who like their rigs to move realistically over the terrain rather than simply bouncing over the top of it and who would like to crawl on a scale terrain rather than one that is completely unrealistic.

For this reason it seems to me that a truly scale crawling competition should award points for a scale rig to look like a real 1:1 rig, but should also award points for rigs that are weighted and driven in a manor consistent with the way a 1:1 rig would react to the terrain. The irony, for me anyway, is that it appears scale RC competition is something of a contradiction in that scale only seems to apply to vehicle apperance and not to performance with respect to the way these rigs move, climb and generally react to the terrain with any resemblance to any 1:1 reality.

So I would be interested to hear your thoughts on adding a heavy class 2 class both pro and con.

[xCoolHandLukex]

http://www.alphalanding.com/rc-track...-a-110-rc-car/


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[xCoolHandLukex]

My 1:1

About 6500lbs loaded



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[xCoolHandLukex]

1:10 scale version weighing in at 6.7lbs so they are pretty close scale wise. The physics don't really scale down so it's pretty hard to have a 1:10 scale mimic the actions of a full scale. 10lb rig would be like a 1 ton diesel crewcab lol


I typed this almost auto correctly free

[xCoolHandLukex]

1:10 scale that weighs 6.7lbs so they are pretty close scale wise. The physics don't really scale down though that's why they don't drive like a full size even at 10lbs. Which would be like a 1 ton crew cab diesel.


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[xCoolHandLukex]

I typed this almost auto correctly free

[Buchhop2]

I get the idea of having a scaled rig perform, move, and be driven like a 1:1 rig but isn't driving with little to no repercussions part of the fun though? I mean I love off-roading my 1:1 1991 wrangler locked front and rear on 38.5 swampers. It's built for purely rock crawling, but there are ledges and hills I would never attempt in it that seem completely ok scaled down for the scx10 to give it a go. Driving scale allows you to be "ten feet tall and bullet proof" behind the wheel without the risk. It allows you to push the limit even further.

I do like heavier rigs though. Just don't see their use in comps. Maybe trailing is more what your looking for? I have more fun doing that with a bunch of buddies than comps anyway.

[Brake Weight]

You may be able to hold a heavy class 1 or 2 at a local level. Establish guidelines for weight and then use regular class rules to keep it simple so you could theoretically de-ballast for conventional class competition.

[Scrap]

Soft springs help.

I had a Dingo with the softest springs you can get from axial and it moved quite realistically. It had very few mods that added weight except on the axles.

[svt923]

Originally Posted by Inspector86

For this reason it seems to me that a truly scale crawling competition should award points for a scale rig to look like a real 1:1 rig, but should also award points for rigs that are weighted and driven in a manor consistent with the way a 1:1 rig would react to the terrain.

How would a "scale manner" be judged? Have you seen the fights that result from even the simple, straightforward rules on vehicle construction? Can you imagine the bitch-fest that would result from points being awarded for something so arbitrary?

If you are into the scale aspect, C2 cone dodging probably isn't for you. C1 (and even C0 at some events) are much more about realistic vehicles running on realistic terrain. Even if you make a 10+ lb class, you will have the guys that run 8 lbs of weight on the axle of a lexan body truck because they have to win.

[Ditchrat]

Originally Posted by svt923

How would a "scale manner" be judged? Have you seen the fights that result from even the simple, straightforward rules on vehicle construction? Can you imagine the bitch-fest that would result from points being awarded for something so arbitrary?

If you are into the scale aspect, C2 cone dodging probably isn't for you. C1 (and even C0 at some events) are much more about realistic vehicles running on realistic terrain. Even if you make a 10+ lb class, you will have the guys that run 8 lbs of weight on the axle of a lexan body truck because they have to win.

Its called a spec class. Almost every competitive race series has one, including rc/slot car racing.

It is abundantly clear those involved in making rc rules are eithet completely clueless about how successful governing bodies work or too arrogant and think that they cant reinvent the wheel.

Spec classes are so simple. You win your car gets stripped down to ensure compliance. If you fail you are DQ'd.

You literally have to tech the win place and show of each class not the whole field.

[svt923]

Originally Posted by Ditchrat

Its called a spec class. Almost every competitive race series has one, including rc/slot car racing.

It is abundantly clear those involved in making rc rules are eithet completely clueless about how successful governing bodies work or too arrogant and think that they cant reinvent the wheel.

Spec classes are so simple. You win your car gets stripped down to ensure compliance. If you fail you are DQ'd.

You literally have to tech the win place and show of each class not the whole field.

My point was there will inevitably be people that have their trucks built in a way to maximize performance only, exploit any loophole they can find, and completely go against the spirit of the class: these people lead to the death of any spec class. The blatant cheaters are easy to weed out.

[Inspector86]

A 2H class is probably an unrealistic idea, I like the way my current rig moves and reacts to the terrain. Since I have no interest in comps in general, I will probably limit my participation to trail and fun scale crawling. BTW, As I read the Recon G6 rules these events are designed by Parker around scale terrain down to and including water crossings no more than about 3/4 tire height deep for example. If that is true, are the Recon G6 rules different from other events, or is it just that most event planners try to push the limits of what the crawlers can do? I guess I can understand the attraction of seeing how much your rig can negotiate but it seems to me extreme crawling should be a different kind of event or somehow separate from scale crawling. Maybe a better approach than an 2H class would be to have a distinction between extreme crawling and scale crawling events.

[Ditchrat]

Originally Posted by Inspector86

A 2H class is probably an unrealistic idea, I like the way my current rig moves and reacts to the terrain. Since I have no interest in comps in general, I will probably limit my participation to trail and fun scale crawling. BTW, As I read the Recon G6 rules these events are designed by Parker around scale terrain down to and including water crossings no more than about 3/4 tire height deep for example. If that is true, are the Recon G6 rules different from other events, or is it just that most event planners try to push the limits of what the crawlers can do? I guess I can understand the attraction of seeing how much your rig can negotiate but it seems to me extreme crawling should be a different kind of event or somehow separate from scale crawling. Maybe a better approach than an 2H class would be to have a distinction between extreme crawling and scale crawling events.

Well you don't exactly have the right impression. Recons are an awful lot of fun, and you should run what ever rig you want. The enjoyment is the challenge. I ran this years in pa with my bronco class 2 and my class 1 defender.

Both had completely different experiences on the same gates, and I loved it.

But the best I can say about Parker is he make his gates anywhere from easy to dam near impossible. However I think that is because he wants you to depend on a winch or on other G6er's.

The push, pull, winch to get the first rig up, then the daisy chain of guys hooked up and following is fun.

If by scale driving you mean driving by the no rig left behind mantra of 1:1 off roading, then yes it is very scale.

If you mean the obstacles are scale, not that's not always the case. We ran gates that had an inch of water to some crossing that 10lb rigs needed to have a winch anchor to make it across. Weather changes things. Ok maybe they where scale flash floods.

Classify the Recon however you want, because it is exactly what you make of it. People get more of a sense of accomplishment when helping other. If you bring a heavy hard body, leaf spring, 4.15 inch tired truck, your going to find people love you, you make the best anchor and your ass needs a yank often enough to be a pull toy.

Recon=endurance
Comp=skill
Supposedly Mountain man crawling comps are extreme crawling designed to break rigs.

I see you are in VA. Take the drive to PA next year for the bluerocks, you will love it.

[Sneetches]

Originally Posted by Ditchrat

Its called a spec class. Almost every competitive race series has one, including rc/slot car racing.

It is abundantly clear those involved in making rc rules are eithet completely clueless about how successful governing bodies work or too arrogant and think that they cant reinvent the wheel.

Spec classes are so simple. You win your car gets stripped down to ensure compliance. If you fail you are DQ'd.

You literally have to tech the win place and show of each class not the whole field.

The problem isn't people blatantly cheating at comps, it's people skirting the rules of vehicle building in grey areas that "technically" aren't cheating because there isn't a rule there or it's ambiguous.

For example, those brass TRX-4 portal covers that have a huge amount of weight left on that's shaped like a crescent. It's completely against the scale aspect, obviously a knuckle weight, and yet TECHNICALLY it's legal because it's required for the axle to function, and there is no rule that your knuckle has to mimic a 1:1 knuckle. Just look at the rule that was added because one guy tried to defend his clear lexan disc w/ standoff wheels:

Originally Posted by SORRCA 2017

Wheels must resemble a 1:1 type wheel. Wheels with exposed foams or front side stand off construction are
not legal in any class. Fibre Reinforced Plastic (Ex: Carbon Fiber), translucent and clear materials are not
acceptable

The only solution is to run something like GCM's Adventure series and also start calling out the loophole builders. I myself would like to go to one of the G6's though because I like the idea more of everyone vs. the terrain rather than everyone vs. each other. I don't know if you remember the SORCCA Facebook's brief existence but that was a pretty good indicator of where the rules arguments can get to...

[Ditchrat]

Originally Posted by Sneetches

The problem isn't people blatantly cheating at comps, it's people skirting the rules of vehicle building in grey areas that "technically" aren't cheating because there isn't a rule there or it's ambiguous.

I don't think you understand a spec class. In a spec class you can only use parts from an approved upon list. If it isn't on the list then it is a DQ. You don't have to have every part spec'd either.

For example you can only use a motor with an average of 13ohm. Doesn't matter the brand or number of turns only the ohms.

People complain about spec class because they are taken to far and you end up with a list of parts that you can only use. But it doesn't need to be that way. Spec classes include what must be used not what may not be. It gets rid of the ambiguity.

There are lots of ways to get rid of the grey area issues, which I won't get into.

But it is easy to make most people happy, have a spec class, box stock class and a open class where almost anything goes.

The absolute biggest advantage of spec classes are they are self policing. You know that if you build something out of spec and win its going to be caught in tech and you DQ. It takes little time to tech 1 or two winners compared to doing a scale points sheet for each and every person in the field.

I am not advocating this, but this is how NASCAR works, F1, the road car series, most of the competitive slot car organizations as well as tons of other events. Just don't confuse a tech inspection with a safety tech inspection, most have both, but I couldn't see a safety inspection being relevant to RC.

[Sneetches]

Originally Posted by Ditchrat

I don't think you understand a spec class. In a spec class you can only use parts from an approved upon list. If it isn't on the list then it is a DQ. You don't have to have every part spec'd either.

For example you can only use a motor with an average of 13ohm. Doesn't matter the brand or number of turns only the ohms.

People complain about spec class because they are taken to far and you end up with a list of parts that you can only use. But it doesn't need to be that way. Spec classes include what must be used not what may not be. It gets rid of the ambiguity.

There are lots of ways to get rid of the grey area issues, which I won't get into.

But it is easy to make most people happy, have a spec class, box stock class and a open class where almost anything goes.

The absolute biggest advantage of spec classes are they are self policing. You know that if you build something out of spec and win its going to be caught in tech and you DQ. It takes little time to tech 1 or two winners compared to doing a scale points sheet for each and every person in the field.

I am not advocating this, but this is how NASCAR works, F1, the road car series, most of the competitive slot car organizations as well as tons of other events. Just don't confuse a tech inspection with a safety tech inspection, most have both, but I couldn't see a safety inspection being relevant to RC.

I suppose I misunderstood as well being that I know what a spec class is, but mainly that I made my post with comps using SORCCA rules in mind. So far aside from the banned tire list SORCCA doesn't really seem to want to implement any spec style rules, so as a result we're going to keep getting brass knuckle weights, carbon fiber chassis with raked skids, carbon fiber transmissions, etc.

Now to actually answer OP, the way his post is described so far does sound like the rules would be too arbitrary as to what constitutes "scale driving", since you really can't scale down physics and most of the good looking scale videos are slowed down to begin with.

[Natedog]

Originally Posted by Ditchrat

Its called a spec class. Almost every competitive race series has one, including rc/slot car racing.

It is abundantly clear those involved in making rc rules are eithet completely clueless about how successful governing bodies work or too arrogant and think that they cant reinvent the wheel.

Spec classes are so simple. You win your car gets stripped down to ensure compliance. If you fail you are DQ'd.

You literally have to tech the win place and show of each class not the whole field.

Slotcar racing spec class is one of the most fun and easily teched if you're going to fast. As some push the envelope with tuning and driving skills, motors, maximum weight, all get adjusted as needed. Spec crawling should be similarly easy.

[Ditchrat]

Originally Posted by Natedog

Slotcar racing spec class is one of the most fun and easily teched if you're going to fast. As some push the envelope with tuning and driving skills, motors, maximum weight, all get adjusted as needed. Spec crawling should be similarly easy.

Lets all just run unlimited gravity class