hypocrisy RC4WD desert runner

[Ditchrat]

I didn't want to pollute any build/showoff/discussion threads with this comments, so here it will sit, that is until it goes garbage and goes to off topic.


So RC4WD re badges another companies product and makes it their own, no problem that happens all the time.


However that product is clearly a copy of a Ford, there is no doubt about that, and the consensus from the interweb of darkness is a Ford.



So why is it that some people across the web who rail against the Chinese clones of methods, clones of RC4WD products and various other clones, but it is ok for this truck.

For the record, I come down on the I really don't care about it enough to not buy a product, but I know its not right. My hypocrisy is that I don't have a problem buying it, but could never bring myself to openly sell it.

Clearly it is an unlicensed product, which means the designers basically stole the styling from the full size. Then they branded as their own and made money off other peoples work.


This isn't unique to this situation. I see 3d printed items from engines to coolers being sold without licenses, scale Coke cans. People are even making scale badges for cars that are clearly rip off of the full sized ones.


Yet for what ever reason few people mention it, and even few care enough to not openly support this theft.


Just something to think about. What you buy or don't buy is completely your decision and none of my business. But I wonder why it is ok to rail against nameless companies, then toss support for other companies doing the same thing.

My hypocrisy is that I have no problems buying clones from a company I don't really care for, but wouldn't do so if I had some brand loyalty to another.

[Brake Weight]

I agree. I, myself, buy whatever whenever. It’s a wide open market for rip offs and the real deal. Quality and crap.

[2mtech]

Hypocrisy is a strong word to use, even in reference in oneself, but this is a broad topic where the moral high ground is admittedly difficult to maintain.

I think you hit three similar but subtly different points. I have no problem with a retailer sourcing an existing product from a manufacturer, rebranding it with their own logo and selling it, happens all the time. I'm pretty sure it's fairly common knowledge that Kenmore does not, and has never, made a single thing. Kenmore is 100% rebranded, sourced product...some ours, some Whirlpool, LG, Samsung. You can tell who the real manufacturer is from the model number if you have the secret squirrel decoder ring. It's legal and ethical business (excluding emotion). For RC3WD to source a rig and sell it as theirs doesn't bother me.

Now, the fact that the manufacturer of the "Hero" has clearly duplicated what we all immediately recognized as a 1:1 Ford truck with almost undoubtedly no legit license from Ford to do so is another thing. Is it theft? On some level. Does that make RC3WD duplicitous in the technical theft? Arguably, let's say yes. In the spirit of IP, will sales of the RC truck detract from sales of the 1:1 truck? No. So I attach a little less moral discomfort here. If someone wants to make a dollhouse dishwasher scaled and modeled exactly like one we make, including brand badging and patent protected wash features, I'm good with it. No one is going to pass on buying one of our products because they bought the scale piece for their kiddie. Maybe someone's mommy will see it and think, "Hey, that's kind of stylish" and seek it out when they go appliance shopping. However, if another white goods manufacturer shows up in Lowes with even a spray arm or cutlery basket feature that infringes on our IP it's game on and the lawyers are on the phone.

I won't even comment extensively on manufacturers that make RC products that are obviously a direct ripoff of another RC manufacturer's original product (Asian offerings taking food out of Vanquish's and Holmes Hobbies' mouths come to mind); that's blatant theft with direct impact to the IP originator and I try not to partake of that. But it's honestly hard to not do sometimes unless you're really savvy about every company's products.

[Shinchu]

the dishwasher reference was exactly how i felt.

[DukeMinnix]

Originally Posted by 2mtech

Hypocrisy is a strong word to use, even in reference in oneself, but this is a broad topic where the moral high ground is admittedly difficult to maintain.


Now, the fact that the manufacturer of the "Hero" has clearly duplicated what we all immediately recognized as a 1:1 Ford truck with almost undoubtedly no legit license from Ford to do so is another thing. Is it theft? On some level. Does that make RC3WD duplicitous in the technical theft? Arguably, let's say yes. In the spirit of IP, will sales of the RC truck detract from sales of the 1:1 truck? No. So I attach a little less moral discomfort here. If someone wants to make a dollhouse dishwasher scaled and modeled exactly like one we make, including brand badging and patent protected wash features, I'm good with it. No one is going to pass on buying one of our products because they bought the scale piece for their kiddie. Maybe someone's mommy will see it and think, "Hey, that's kind of stylish" and seek it out when they go appliance shopping. However, if another white goods manufacturer shows up in Lowes with even a spray arm or cutlery basket feature that infringes on our IP it's game on and the lawyers are on the phone.

The part you missed, that makes this no different than someone ripping off vanquish or holmes designs, is the fact that "hero JD models", did in fact, without compensation to Ford or the design engineers that designed the Raptor, did in fact, steal any and ALL intellectual property and design concepts. Regardless of whether its in direct competition with Ford's 1:1 truck is irrelevant there. One could make an argument that I could make a two foot long Snickers bar, and because of the size difference, it not be a direct competitor of the original, yet still, in my opinion, infringement on moral and ethical issues. I'm not copyright lawyer, and I imagine in todays day and age, many many loopholes exist that allow for situations like these, but I don't see how theft of intellectual property is any different, regardless of scale. Just my opinion, and I don't have a problem with ripped off products at all, just do have a problem with justification of one action, and condemnation of another.

[2mtech]

Originally Posted by DukeMinnix

The part you missed, that makes this no different than someone ripping off vanquish or holmes designs, is the fact that "hero JD models", did in fact, without compensation to Ford or the design engineers that designed the Raptor, did in fact, steal any and ALL intellectual property and design concepts. Regardless of whether its in direct competition with Ford's 1:1 truck is irrelevant there. One could make an argument that I could make a two foot long Snickers bar, and because of the size difference, it not be a direct competitor of the original, yet still, in my opinion, infringement on moral and ethical issues. I'm not copyright lawyer, and I imagine in todays day and age, many many loopholes exist that allow for situations like these, but I don't see how theft of intellectual property is any different, regardless of scale. Just my opinion, and I don't have a problem with ripped off products at all, just do have a problem with justification of one action, and condemnation of another.

You may have missed the part where I directly addressed the part that you said I missed.

If you make a two foot long Snickers bar and sell it for the same price as a normal sized Snickers bar, everyone will buy yours and Mars will lose their collective asses. If you make a two foot long decal of a Snickers bar and copy every minute detail of the actual wrapper it's not going to cause anyone to buy your decal instead of the tasty candy bar so there's no "damage" in the legalese of IP (loophole).

But yes, painted with a generously broad brush, your decal would in fact be in violation of trademark law, which is about as enforceable as the Volstead Act was in the 20's.

My money is heavily on the supposition that Ford couldn't care less if a toy maker copies one of the highest selling truck designs in NA, unless they see a fractional opportunity to challenge JDModel for a taste. How about a little something, ya know...for the effort.

[svt923]

Originally Posted by DukeMinnix

I'm not copyright lawyer, and I imagine in todays day and age, many many loopholes exist that allow for situations like these, but I don't see how theft of intellectual property is any different, regardless of scale.

I read this in a business legal journal:

"In asserting a design patent against others, the scope of the claimed design encompasses the visual appearance as a whole. For infringement to occur (an unauthorized making, using, offering to sell or selling of the protected design), the alleged infringing design must (1) be substantially the same as the patented design such that it would deceive an ordinary observer, and (2) appropriate or take the point of novelty that allowed the design to be patented."

I believe the basis of any argument would be a ordinary observer would not mistake any of the individual patented parts of the Raptor with the equivalent JD Models parts.

[Jim85IROC]

Originally Posted by 2mtech

You may have missed the part where I directly addressed the part that you said I missed.

If you make a two foot long Snickers bar and sell it for the same price as a normal sized Snickers bar, everyone will buy yours and Mars will lose their collective asses. If you make a two foot long decal of a Snickers bar and copy every minute detail of the actual wrapper it's not going to cause anyone to buy your decal instead of the tasty candy bar so there's no "damage" in the legalese of IP (loophole).

But yes, painted with a generously broad brush, your decal would in fact be in violation of trademark law, which is about as enforceable as the Volstead Act was in the 20's.

My money is heavily on the supposition that Ford couldn't care less if a toy maker copies one of the highest selling truck designs in NA, unless they see a fractional opportunity to challenge JDModel for a taste. How about a little something, ya know...for the effort.

Where is this 2 foot long Snickers of which you speak?

[2mtech]

Originally Posted by Jim85IROC

Where is this 2 foot long Snickers of which you speak?

Need bigger vending machines...not cost effective.

[Brake Weight]

But there’s already scale snob complaints of inaccuracies. What was the rule of thumb for trademark infringement? Change 20%?

[Ditchrat]

Originally Posted by DukeMinnix

Just my opinion, and I don't have a problem with ripped off products at all, just do have a problem with justification of one action, and condemnation of another.

That's were I am at.

Originally Posted by 2mtech

My money is heavily on the supposition that Ford couldn't care less if a toy maker copies one of the highest selling truck designs in NA,

Certain companies are highly protective of their products. Ford does license some of their products to toy manufactures including some RC companies. Who know what they do or don't do?

Originally Posted by Jim85IROC

Where is this 2 foot long Snickers of which you speak?

they make 1lbers

[Shinchu]

if anyone buys a 2 foot snickers and sticks it in the back of a JD Models 1:10 Desert Runner and tries to drive it to work and gets mad at ford for this crappy Hero raptor...or pass it off as a 1:1... then i see an issue.

take star wars for example. i am an avid collector of custom light sabers (and there is a failed zombie thread here somewhere that proves it).
are they licensed? no. are Lucasfilm and Disney shutting down production of these "laser swords"? nope.
star wars makes WAY more on products than actual movie tickets. if they aren't concerned about some nerds making lightsabers on a lathe in the garage and selling them, why would one of the largest auto manufacturers be concerned about a neat RC truck that looks like one of thiers?

however the fact this thread even exists is making me want to hurry up and get a hero before i cant! lol

[kbzx35]

Sorry I'm new to the forum but this thread intrigued me and made me think of a question that I couldn't resist asking. Purely curious to those that state little to no tolerance for infringement. What about other designs that are not exacting replicas but assume strong likeness to a given vehicle. For example, The Honcho and the Deadbolt. They aren't exact replicas but take very very strong visual cues of known vehicles. Or even axles that are very close to the 1:1? Just curious to know.

[utieh]

I agree with most of what you're saying, but Ford Raptor sales are not going to drop and designers/engineers are not going to loose their jobs because there's an unlicensed RC version of it.
RC3WD have some very dubious business practice and I try avoid their stuff as much as I can in general, quality is not great, products wear fast or even worse break quickly.

In the case of Fake VP wheels for example, those Chinese companies do take market shares of independent businesses whom designers and engineers are working very hard to develop and put into production those products and ideas, the competition is really unfair as they can replicate a design and mass produce it in a matter of weeks.

I cannot afford VP so I either buy second hand or go for a cheaper brand.

[Shinchu]

i agree with most of that but just FYI that truck is not made by RC4WD its made by JD Models and RC4wd is merely the distributor (or they bought a ton and slapped their sticker on the box, whatever).
but yeah RC4WD did NOT make that truck. they just sell it.

[TooOldForThis]

I see this as a subject that should be left for the lawyers to decide (and for everyone else to misinterpret) but it reminds me of the fascinating world of Chinese full-scale automotive knockoffs.

https://jalopnik.com/the-ten-greates...ade-1694449178

[Shinchu]

Hahaha!!!

The knock off actually looks better than the range rover!

[JatoTheRipper]

Because people love bashing brands until their own, favorite brand does the same thing that they bash other brands for doing. Then it suddenly becomes acceptable. Why? Because humans are hypocritical critters.

[Ditchrat]

Originally Posted by JatoTheRipper

Because people love bashing brands until their own, favorite brand does the same thing that they bash other brands for doing. Then it suddenly becomes acceptable. Why? Because humans are hypocritical critters.

That was kind of the point to the OG post, the fact that it does hurt Fords full scale sales should be an issue, Ford does make money from licensing agreements, but stealing their design there are basically not paying what ever licensing agreement fees are due Ford.


And more to the point RC3WD gives up any moral right to complain about people cloning their products without paying licensing fee. We at least if......

[JatoTheRipper]

Originally Posted by Ditchrat

And more to the point RC3WD gives up any moral right to complain about people cloning their products without paying licensing fee. We at least if......

Oh stop making sense.