Go Back   RCCrawler Forums > RCCrawler General Tech > Newbie General
Loading

Notices

Thread: Kit cost vs. RTR cost...

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-17-2015, 09:23 AM   #1
Rock Crawler
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 565
Default Kit cost vs. RTR cost...

Why would the axial wraith spawn kit only cost $40 less than the axial wraith spawn RTR when the RTR comes with transmitter, receiver, esc, motor, servo etc? Seems like the kit should be much cheaper than $40?

What am I missing?
Drm31078 is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 12-17-2015, 09:43 AM   #2
Moderator
 
JatoTheRipper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: PA
Posts: 13,918
Default Re: Kit cost vs. RTR cost...

You've already started multiple threads on the Wraith. You can and should ask all of the questions in that same thread to avoid cluttering the site. This is a rule that applies to pretty much any forum.

Anyway, the kit includes aluminum upgrades, such as links, that the RTR does not include.
JatoTheRipper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2015, 09:49 AM   #3
Rock Crawler
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 565
Default Re: Kit cost vs. RTR cost...

Different topics. One was difference in rc types and one is difference in kit and RTR. I used wraith as examples in both.

In my experience on other forums, if I list all my questions in one post on different topics, I usually don't get answers to all those questions. Hence separate posts.

Thanks for the coaching though!
Drm31078 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2015, 09:55 AM   #4
I wanna be Dave
 
Natedog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Corruptifornia
Posts: 12,107
Default Re: Kit cost vs. RTR cost...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JatoTheRipper View Post
...kit includes aluminum upgrades, such as links, that the RTR does not include.
X2, and RTR electronics are not expensive or high-end so they don't cost the companies as much money since they also buy in bulk. Kits's are fun, but sometimes I buy RTR because I'm short on time, want to try out the electronics, and/or like the factory painted body. Go with what you like, can afford, and don't forget to budget in for batteries, charger, some good quality RC tools, and possible repairs, spares and upgrades.
Natedog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2015, 09:58 AM   #5
Rock Crawler
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 565
Default Re: Kit cost vs. RTR cost...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Natedog View Post
X2, and RTR electronics are not expensive or high-end so they don't cost the companies as much money since they also buy in bulk. Kits's are fun, but sometimes I buy RTR because I'm short on time, want to try out the electronics, and/or like the factory painted body. Go with what you like, can afford, and don't forget to budget in for batteries, charger, some good quality RC tools, and possible repairs, spares and upgrades.

Thanks for the reply! So to confirm, the kits do have better components than RTR as stated from first poster?

As a noob, how difficult is a kit? I am fairly handy, but have never done model builds before.
Drm31078 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2015, 10:11 AM   #6
Newbie
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Freeport
Posts: 42
Default Re: Kit cost vs. RTR cost...

The Kits aeren't overly complicated but you have to be able to pay close attention to the drawings / instructions. There's no words in Axial kits, just diagrams like Lego kits. I'm very experienced with building RC cars and more and I often have to undue and rebuild a piece or two because I was rushing and missed a detail. I've never purchased an RTR kit until this year and now I've purchased 2. Like the earlier poster pointed out, the painted bodies can be cool and sometimes you're just in a rush. My last one was the Bomber. I would have loved to purchased the KIT for the aluminum goodies but I just couldn't wait.

Also mentioned above, a good set of RC tools is key!
Dornbox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2015, 11:54 AM   #7
I wanna be Dave
 
Natedog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Corruptifornia
Posts: 12,107
Default Re: Kit cost vs. RTR cost...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drm31078 View Post
Thanks for the reply! So to confirm, the kits do have better components than RTR as stated from first poster?

As a noob, how difficult is a kit? I am fairly handy, but have never done model builds before.
Generally yes, kits come with some parts that are upgrades for RTR, but not always...read closely before buying to be sure what you're getting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dornbox View Post
The Kits aeren't overly complicated but you have to be able to pay close attention to the drawings / instructions. There's no words in Axial kits, just diagrams like Lego kits. I'm very experienced with building RC cars and more and I often have to undue and rebuild a piece or two because I was rushing and missed a detail. I've never purchased an RTR kit until this year and now I've purchased 2. Like the earlier poster pointed out, the painted bodies can be cool and sometimes you're just in a rush. My last one was the Bomber. I would have loved to purchased the KIT for the aluminum goodies but I just couldn't wait.

Also mentioned above, a good set of RC tools is key!
X2, take time and do the steps in order or you'll probably have to do things twice. I do the steps in my order if there's a certain part I want to build first or waiting on other parts, but sometimes it causes me more work in the long run. Kit's are not that hard if you can follow directions.
Natedog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2015, 12:29 PM   #8
RCC Addict
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: at home
Posts: 1,099
Default Re: Kit cost vs. RTR cost...

if you plan on keeping the car for a while and expect to do mods down the road, building up
the kit will make you intimately familiar with the car and cause you to have a better understanding
of how it all works together. a few hours of your time used to build the kit and experiment with
the setup is not a waste. after all it is a hobby and meant to take up out time in an interesting
manner.
stock servos, escs, and motors are available from people who wanted better from the gitgo but the kit
gives you the opportunity to get something better. you do have a choice.
the cost of a tx/rx is probably the hardest to justify. again, you can get a stock one from ebay but
it is an opportunity to get a radio that will serve you for a long time and many vehicles
cabron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2015, 02:17 PM   #9
Newbie
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: FL
Posts: 31
Default Re: Kit cost vs. RTR cost...

Go with a RTR and upgrade whatever brakes. It's much cheaper if you are just getting into this hobby. I got an RTR rubicon and it's awesome. I've disassembled it several times to upgrade links and do some other minor upgrades and that's how I learned how everything works under the hood. Yes, the stock electronics are not top of the line, but they work just fine and the truck performs amazing right out of the box.
ole_gators is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2015, 03:38 PM   #10
RCC Addict
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Price Twp.
Posts: 1,291
Default Re: Kit cost vs. RTR cost...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drm31078 View Post
As a noob, how difficult is a kit? I am fairly handy, but have never done model builds before.
Got my dingo kit two weeks ago, although I am waiting for Christmas as it is a gift for me and my son, I have opened it. After reading through the instructions, looking at all the bags with labels I am fairly confident that my 6 year old will be able to build it under supervisions.

Everything looks pretty straight forward and the instructions have lots of pictures. I wouldn't worry about it. I watch a couple of complete builds that where time lapsed and after seeing the instructions it was all pretty clear cut.
Ditchrat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2015, 12:16 AM   #11
RCC Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,809
Default Re: Kit cost vs. RTR cost...

Quote:
Originally Posted by cabron View Post
if you plan on keeping the car for a while and expect to do mods down the road, building up the kit will make you intimately familiar with the car and cause you to have a better understanding of how it all works together. a few hours of your time used to build the kit and experiment with the setup is not a waste.
I see this argument a lot, but there's very little (if any) extra time required to do the same with an RTR.
Just disassemble and then re-build it!
You don't even have to scratch your head trying to figure out how the drawings are to be read, since you started with the answer!

Quote:
Originally Posted by cabron View Post
... stock servos, escs, and motors are available from people who wanted better from the gitgo but the kit gives you the opportunity to get something better.
Electronics for a kit will just about always require you to spend more money, unless somebody gives it to you for free.
Buying "better" from the start WILL fail by definition:
Either you buy something that doesn't fulfil your needs, or you spend extra money on performance/features not needed.
Even if you by some kind of miracle happen to pick the perfect match you can't tell until you've tried (and spent money on) something else...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ole_gators View Post
Go with a RTR and upgrade whatever brakes...
... or feels inadequate.
That's the best advice for beginners not having an urge to spend a few hundred bucks more than necessary.

I started with a "pre-built kit" five years ago, and that has cost me quite a bit more than if I'd started with an RTR. By now I would then have had a slightly better rig at a lower total cost.
Olle P is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2015, 05:14 AM   #12
I wanna be Dave
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 2,254
Default Re: Kit cost vs. RTR cost...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Olle P View Post
Either you buy something that doesn't fulfil your needs, or you spend extra money on performance/features not needed.
Even if you by some kind of miracle happen to pick the perfect match you can't tell until you've tried (and spent money on) something else...

... or feels inadequate.
That's the best advice for beginners not having an urge to spend a few hundred bucks more than necessary.

I have to disagree and offer the counterpoint here. If you take the time to research before you buy (reading the stickies and other useful tech threads here, watching YouTube videos to see different rigs and setups in action, speaking with experienced builders/drivers in your area, etc.), you can hit the mark or get very close to it from the start.

My first crawler/scaler build was a Wraith kit (built after reading Harley's stickies, multiple other stickies and build threads, and watching countless videos), and about the only electronics or hop ups that I no longer use from the initial build are the servo (waterproofed Hitec 7950 replaced by HH servo after a few months), CMS mount (Vanquish changed to STRC after a few months), and motor (ROC 412 replaced by HH Puller Pro after over a year). I sold the used parts I no longer needed and was out less than $100 total in resale price vs what I paid. Starting with the RTR would have cost me more up front and not produced any different choices on those three items (all of which would have been part of my initial build regardless given the weak factory servo and Hitec's reputation, my aesthetic preference for CMS, and the fact that the HH motor wasn't on the market when I built mine).

My second build was an SCX-10, and the only electronics or hop ups from that build that I no longer use are the knuckles/chubs (switched from Vanquish to RC4WD for better clearance) and motor (switched from ROC 412 to HH Puller Pro), and it was the same story, as it has been on most of the rigs I've built since then.

Buying an RTR and upgrading as things break or to improve performance makes sense for some, especially if your initial budget is very tight. But if you don't take the time to research upgrade options, you can just as easily make mistakes along that path just as you can when building a kit from the start. Building a kit after taking the time to research and ask good questions is a better fit for others, especially if you enjoy the build and assembly process, and it can (and often does) work out just fine.
new2rocks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2015, 06:24 AM   #13
Rock Crawler
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 565
Default Re: Kit cost vs. RTR cost...

Wow! Some great responses and very informative. I am a little more unsure now on which way to proceed than before but that is okay since some things I didn't consider have been brought up. Ha.

I am the type that likes to build things and does a lot of research on stuff I buy. I am also the type that like to tweak and upgrade so I could see wanting to upgrade things right away if I go with an RTR based on what I have read on these forums, however I have nothing to compare to since this is my first rc let alone rock crawler. So like one poster said I won't be able to know if what I upgraded really is what I want since I don't have anything to compare too.

I think a kit would be fun but would certainly be more upfront cost to get up and running but might be cheaper at the end of the day than a RTR with gradual upgrades.

My other problem is deciding what type of rig I want to build. I need something that will be fun in my back yard in the burbs (i.e. Not a lot of crawling terrain so I wouldn't it want it to be super slow) but I could see myself really getting into the pure crawling aspects of the hobby when the terrain was available. Seems like there is some skill and strategy to pure crawling which I like. I am a pure performance / technical type of person so the build would focus on that rather than scaler aestetics. I think I am hijacking my own thread now. Haha.
Drm31078 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2015, 07:06 AM   #14
Moderator
 
JatoTheRipper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: PA
Posts: 13,918
Default Re: Kit cost vs. RTR cost...

If you want speed a scale crawler isn't a good option. That's why many RC fans (addicts!) have more than one RC. You get a go-fast rig then you have a crawler. And then it snowballs out of control and you have over 20 RC's! And I'm on the light side compared to some people in this hobby.

A scale crawler is the most addictive niche of RC though. They're just awesome.

Assuming you're going with a scale crawler I would suggest you start with a kit. Buying an RTR then upgrading it is more expensive in the long run and Axial RTRs need upgrades almost immediately because the rubber links will bend in half even with the stock motor. If you buy a kit you can start with inexpensive and reliable electronics. Here's what I use and it's never let me down yet.

HobbyWing QuicRun 10 brushed, waterproof ESC ($20.99): HOBBYWING North America — QUICRUN 16 Brushed ESC
RC4WD 35T motor ($9.99): TowerHobbies.com | RC4WD 540 Crawler Brushed Motor 35T
Solar D772 servo ($19.95): Solar Servo D772 High Voltage 0.17sec@7.4v 64g Digital Metal Gear
BEC - Optional if you want more power from the servo - ($7.20): HXT UBEC 5/6v output, 5.5~23v Input (AR Warehouse)
Turnigy TS4G transmitter ($39.50): TrackStar D-Spec TS4G 2.4GHz 4-Channel Radio System (Gyro Integrated) (AR Warehouse)
2S LiPo battery - your choice, but we can help if needed.

Anybody that tells you the above items are junk probably have not tried them and you shouldn't take their advice. Are these top of the line items? Of course not. They're made to be inexpensive, but they all have been bulletproof to myself and lots of others.
JatoTheRipper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2015, 08:11 AM   #15
RCC Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,809
Default Re: Kit cost vs. RTR cost...

Quote:
Originally Posted by new2rocks View Post
... If you take the time to research before you buy (reading the stickies and other useful tech threads here, watching YouTube videos to see different rigs and setups in action, speaking with experienced builders/drivers in your area, etc.), you can hit the mark or get very close to it from the start.
If "going fast" is (pretty much) all one wants and the budget allows it then I suppose some previous research is all it takes.

Wanting more finesse than power on a thin budget reading and watching others will only point you in the general direction. Driving yourself is the only way to learn what works for you.
Given that there are other drivers nearby it's usually no sweat to get some hands on experience before deciding what to get.

I wasn't that lucky and had no known other crawler driver within 200 miles. Even though I did do tons of research I made some bad decisions based on how I thought I would drive. (That looks cool! I want to do that too!)
Once I began to drive myself the priorities shifted quite a bit, and NOBODY could have told me beforehand that's the direction I would take and what to use for it.
Olle P is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2015, 08:35 AM   #16
I wanna be Dave
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: New Port Richey, FL.
Posts: 2,545
Default Re: Kit cost vs. RTR cost...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JatoTheRipper View Post
If you want speed a scale crawler isn't a good option. That's why many RC fans (addicts!) have more than one RC. You get a go-fast rig then you have a crawler. And then it snowballs out of control and you have over 20 RC's! And I'm on the light side compared to some people in this hobby.

A scale crawler is the most addictive niche of RC though. They're just awesome.

Assuming you're going with a scale crawler I would suggest you start with a kit. Buying an RTR then upgrading it is more expensive in the long run and Axial RTRs need upgrades almost immediately because the rubber links will bend in half even with the stock motor. If you buy a kit you can start with inexpensive and reliable electronics. Here's what I use and it's never let me down yet.

HobbyWing QuicRun 10 brushed, waterproof ESC ($20.99): HOBBYWING North America — QUICRUN 16 Brushed ESC
RC4WD 35T motor ($9.99): TowerHobbies.com | RC4WD 540 Crawler Brushed Motor 35T
Solar D772 servo ($19.95): Solar Servo D772 High Voltage 0.17sec@7.4v 64g Digital Metal Gear
BEC - Optional if you want more power from the servo - ($7.20): HXT UBEC 5/6v output, 5.5~23v Input (AR Warehouse)
Turnigy TS4G transmitter ($39.50): TrackStar D-Spec TS4G 2.4GHz 4-Channel Radio System (Gyro Integrated) (AR Warehouse)
2S LiPo battery - your choice, but we can help if needed.

Anybody that tells you the above items are junk probably have not tried them and you shouldn't take their advice. Are these top of the line items? Of course not. They're made to be inexpensive, but they all have been bulletproof to myself and lots of others.
Well, I've tried it and I can say that motor is junk. It works if you're on a dead tight low budget. Solar D772 is a kick ass servo! Haven't or want to try that radio equipment or esc.
Johnnysplits is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2015, 10:38 AM   #17
I wanna be Dave
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 2,254
Default Re: Kit cost vs. RTR cost...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drm31078 View Post
My other problem is deciding what type of rig I want to build. I need something that will be fun in my back yard in the burbs (i.e. Not a lot of crawling terrain so I wouldn't it want it to be super slow) but I could see myself really getting into the pure crawling aspects of the hobby when the terrain was available. Seems like there is some skill and strategy to pure crawling which I like. I am a pure performance / technical type of person so the build would focus on that rather than scaler aestetics. I think I am hijacking my own thread now. Haha.

I was in a similar boat when I got back into the hobby last year. Started with faster and more capable rigs and came to really like slower and less capable (most of the time, lol).

There's a fairly active crawling scene in and around Charlotte (including some folks nearby in that other Carolina), so don't assume that your locked into your immediate suburban terrain. My immediate neighborhood in the Triangle is pretty bland, but there are plenty of very nice spots in parks within 30-45 minutes of us. I'm sure you'd find the same in the Queen City. I'd definitely recommend hooking up with them (check out the NC and SC sections here) and meeting up once or twice to get a feel for what and where they run.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
new2rocks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2015, 11:25 AM   #18
Rock Crawler
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 565
Default Re: Kit cost vs. RTR cost...

Thanks for that list of value priced parts. I am leaning towards the kit direction. Those parts will help me get up and running on the cheap and/or I can mix in some higher dollar parts too. Then I will have something better than an RTR with fewer upgrades as I learn what I like. I hope. Maybe.
Drm31078 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2015, 12:41 PM   #19
Moderator
 
JatoTheRipper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: PA
Posts: 13,918
Default Re: Kit cost vs. RTR cost...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnnysplits View Post
Well, I've tried it and I can say that motor is junk. It works if you're on a dead tight low budget. Solar D772 is a kick ass servo! Haven't or want to try that radio equipment or esc.
The motor is absolute low budget for sure, but I've only had two failures so far. One was completely my fault. The other was the original motor when I built my SCX10 years ago and it lasted a couple of years without issue. You can't ask or expect more than getting a couple of years out of a $10 motor.

The ESC is the best brushed, budget crawling ESC out there. Nobody can touch it for the price. The radio is about the best budget system out there. I don't like the feel of FlySkys and their receivers seem to tend to go bad.
JatoTheRipper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2015, 01:42 PM   #20
I wanna be Dave
 
Natedog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Corruptifornia
Posts: 12,107
Default Re: Kit cost vs. RTR cost...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JatoTheRipper View Post
If you want speed a scale crawler isn't a good option. That's why many RC fans (addicts!) have more than one RC. You get a go-fast rig then you have a crawler. And then it snowballs out of control and you have over 20 RC's! And I'm on the light side compared to some people in this hobby.

A scale crawler is the most addictive niche of RC though. They're just awesome.

Assuming you're going with a scale crawler I would suggest you start with a kit. Buying an RTR then upgrading it is more expensive in the long run and Axial RTRs need upgrades almost immediately because the rubber links will bend in half even with the stock motor. If you buy a kit you can start with inexpensive and reliable electronics. Here's what I use and it's never let me down yet.

HobbyWing QuicRun 10 brushed, waterproof ESC ($20.99): HOBBYWING North America — QUICRUN 16 Brushed ESC
RC4WD 35T motor ($9.99): TowerHobbies.com | RC4WD 540 Crawler Brushed Motor 35T
Solar D772 servo ($19.95): Solar Servo D772 High Voltage 0.17sec@7.4v 64g Digital Metal Gear
BEC - Optional if you want more power from the servo - ($7.20): HXT UBEC 5/6v output, 5.5~23v Input (AR Warehouse)
Turnigy TS4G transmitter ($39.50): TrackStar D-Spec TS4G 2.4GHz 4-Channel Radio System (Gyro Integrated) (AR Warehouse)
2S LiPo battery - your choice, but we can help if needed.

Anybody that tells you the above items are junk probably have not tried them and you shouldn't take their advice. Are these top of the line items? Of course not. They're made to be inexpensive, but they all have been bulletproof to myself and lots of others.
Good points, great budget parts, haven't tried that motor or radio though. The Vaterra 35T motor that comes in Ascenders is a great budget motor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Olle P View Post
If "going fast" is (pretty much) all one wants and the budget allows it then I suppose some previous research is all it takes.

Wanting more finesse than power on a thin budget reading and watching others will only point you in the general direction. Driving yourself is the only way to learn what works for you.
Given that there are other drivers nearby it's usually no sweat to get some hands on experience before deciding what to get.

I wasn't that lucky and had no known other crawler driver within 200 miles. Even though I did do tons of research I made some bad decisions based on how I thought I would drive. (That looks cool! I want to do that too!)
Once I began to drive myself the priorities shifted quite a bit, and NOBODY could have told me beforehand that's the direction I would take and what to use for it.
Good points, research is great but not always spot on and our wants change with time and experience.

Quote:
Originally Posted by new2rocks View Post
I was in a similar boat when I got back into the hobby last year. Started with faster and more capable rigs and came to really like slower and less capable (most of the time, lol).

There's a fairly active crawling scene in and around Charlotte (including some folks nearby in that other Carolina), so don't assume that your locked into your immediate suburban terrain. My immediate neighborhood in the Triangle is pretty bland, but there are plenty of very nice spots in parks within 30-45 minutes of us. I'm sure you'd find the same in the Queen City. I'd definitely recommend hooking up with them (check out the NC and SC sections here) and meeting up once or twice to get a feel for what and where they run.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yes, get out and meet with others and see what they are running, if you were nearby I'd let you drive my Ascender.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drm31078 View Post
Thanks for that list of value priced parts. I am leaning towards the kit direction. Those parts will help me get up and running on the cheap and/or I can mix in some higher dollar parts too. Then I will have something better than an RTR with fewer upgrades as I learn what I like. I hope. Maybe.
Natedog is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply



Kit cost vs. RTR cost... - Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Wraith kit cost lamar2626 Axial Wraith 6 11-09-2011 05:04 PM
Overall Cost Getrag Newbie General 23 04-13-2011 04:15 AM
Cost Effectiveness - Kit vs Piece Together rctoyguy Newbie General 23 06-10-2008 09:50 PM
OK, so who has spent more on upgrades than the original kit cost? BigSki Axial AX-10 Scorpion 61 05-29-2008 09:47 PM
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:55 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.
Copyright 2004-2014 RCCrawler.com