axial ? vs redcat gen 8

[DukeMinnix]

I would like to have seen the gen 8 without portals. As far as scalers go, portals are not scale. Very few real world vehicles utilize portal boxes. I understand they likely did this to increase clearance and to add gear reduction without the bulk of a larger tcase/trans combo. I would like to see axial take note and do a front mounted transmission and divorced tcase combo, while utilizing the ar44 axle. I think they are good axles and from the original AR44 to what they put out now, have many variants. I don't think they have come up with the complete axle yet, but SSD/VP have.

[SteveRC]

Originally Posted by DukeMinnix

I would like to have seen the gen 8 without portals. As far as scalers go, portals are not scale. Very few real world vehicles utilize portal boxes. I understand they likely did this to increase clearance and to add gear reduction without the bulk of a larger tcase/trans combo. I would like to see axial take note and do a front mounted transmission and divorced tcase combo, while utilizing the ar44 axle. I think they are good axles and from the original AR44 to what they put out now, have many variants. I don't think they have come up with the complete axle yet, but SSD/VP have.

I agree about the Portals of the Gen 8. Portals are not scale from a purist perspective. It is unique eye candy for a newcomer
Traxxas TRX4 was Redcats target market. More specifically the Sport in that price point.
I don't feel portals in general make for a better performer. A higher center of gravity is a direct result. That hurts you on radial line trail carving. The mere benefit of your pumpkin gaining 3 mm of more clearance over an AR44 axel for instance becomes a minimal gain at a greater loss in my opinion.

The AR44 setup in the RTR offers a LCG tranny. I only use the LCG tranny in my Axial rigs.(despite missing an aluminum motor mount plate) Whether in my RTR or Kit rigs. Yes, it appears budget, but it is simple and not over engineered , like other Brand offerings., and it truly works flawless using a rigid composite plastic and a nice low 40:1 gearing. The kit version gearing is adjustable. But I don't see any advantage. A lower 40:1 is a nice place to start when going brushless. This allows for better Pinion option ranges. Axial keeps things simply designed. That reduces complexity in tuning and upgrading, etc. Yet, to some hobbyists over simplistic, esthetically speaking, can be interpreted as a con for some.

Front mounted motor and Div. T-case is a definite must have for a Scaler Segment scx10.2. But aftermarket support for this is readily available. So Axial doesnt need to offer it.

[CODYBOY]

Originally Posted by SteveRC

I agree about the Portals of the Gen 8. Portals are not scale from a purist perspective. It is unique eye candy for a newcomer
Traxxas TRX4 was Redcats target market. More specifically the Sport in that price point.
I don't feel portals in general make for a better performer. A higher center of gravity is a direct result. That hurts you on radial line trail carving. The mere benefit of your pumpkin gaining 3 mm of more clearance over an AR44 axel for instance becomes a minimal gain at a greater loss in my opinion.

The AR44 setup in the RTR offers a LCG tranny. I only use the LCG tranny in my Axial rigs.(despite missing an aluminum motor mount plate) Whether in my RTR or Kit rigs. Yes, it appears budget, but it is simple and not over engineered , like other Brand offerings., and it truly works flawless using a rigid composite plastic and a nice low 40:1 gearing. The kit version gearing is adjustable. But I don't see any advantage. A lower 40:1 is a nice place to start when going brushless. This allows for better Pinion option ranges. Axial keeps things simply designed. That reduces complexity in tuning and upgrading, etc. Yet, to some hobbyists over simplistic, esthetically speaking, can be interpreted as a con for some.

Front mounted motor and Div. T-case is a definite must have for a Scaler Segment scx10.2. But aftermarket support for this is readily available. So Axial doesnt need to offer it.

In talking about portals we need to remember that the clearance gain isn't the only advantage derived from them. I don't know about the gearing in Gen 8 but the reduction in the Traxxas portals has reduced TT to near none on the Trx4. That's one of the reasons for its popularity with comp guys IMO.

Ernie

[SteveRC]

Originally Posted by CODYBOY

In talking about portals we need to remember that the clearance gain isn't the only advantage derived from them. I don't know about the gearing in Gen 8 but the reduction in the Traxxas portals has reduced TT to near none on the Trx4. That's one of the reasons for its popularity with comp guys IMO.

Ernie

Yes, in general, gear reduction in a properly designed portal axel will always reduce TT. I never meant to dismiss that fact. Portals aside, there are other ways to limit TT.

Remember, TT is inherent in 1:1. How far from scale do we need to go. At some point perhaps the comp level is not realistic anymore. Where do we draw the line?
In 1:1, are all Jk's running mega $$$ , Dynatrac ATi's or Unimog 404's and the like with 5.0:1 gear reduction?
Do we all need a $500.00 pair of Vanquish Portals for bragging rights?

"On" motor pinion gear reduction cases serve that end less expensively while also reducing TT considerably. And a carefully setup ESC/motor will fine tune the rest.

[CODYBOY]

Originally Posted by SteveRC

Yes, in general, gear reduction in a properly designed portal axel will always reduce TT. I never meant to dismiss that fact. Portals aside, there are other ways to limit TT.

Remember, TT is inherent in 1:1. How far from scale do we need to go. At some point perhaps the comp level is not realistic anymore. Where do we draw the line?
In 1:1, are all Jk's running mega $$$ , Dynatrac ATi's or Unimog 404's and the like with 5.0:1 gear reduction?
Do we all need a $500.00 pair of Vanquish Portals for bragging rights?

"On" motor pinion gear reduction cases serve that end less expensively while also reducing TT considerably. And a carefully setup ESC/motor will fine tune the rest.

So I know this is the new to crawling section and we are trying to be patient with you. You are coming across as a very arrogant person who knows it all!! I know you said you have a number of years of RC experience but that doesn't always equate to all knowing knowledge about applications in crawling. I've been racing and crawling since the middle 80s and so I have a little experience, just a little, but I don't try to convince everyone I know it all.
I missed the part were some one bought some $500. VP portals because they want to keep up with the Jones (so to speak) to reduce TT. I have three ascenders so believe me I'm very familiar with options on how to reduce it. I've designed and built a version of ascender/portal axles that drastically reduced TT. I've built a three link with panhards front and rear, ascender that drastically reduced TT. But I have never been able to tune it out by gearing down and tuning my Speed controls.

I'm sure you have plenty of knowledge and a lot to offer all of us, but I for one think it would be helpful to you to maybe tone down your presentation just a little. JMO
Ernie

[Ditchrat]

Originally Posted by CODYBOY

I'm sure you have plenty of knowledge and a lot to offer all of us, but I for one think it would be helpful to you to maybe tone down your presentation of what you have to offer just a little. JMO
Ernie

That was a spectacularly nice way to put it, personally I just went to user list, add to ignore and poof all his posts are gone never to be viewed be me again.

But to the topic, I wouldn't spend money on a Gen 8 till enough people struggle with it to find out what all the bugs are, and there is a reliable supply of parts.

Like they say the devil you know is better then the devil you don't know.

[Teng]

Anyway here is my humble Camel. LOL

Sent from my vivo 1723 using Tapatalk

[SteveRC]

You guys are all great!
I'm sure we could have some great conversation over a beer or 10.
I value everyone's opinion. We all learn from others experiences.
I am new on "This" forum...so that makes me a stranger to some.
So I jumped right in.
I am a 'shoot from the hip' guy.
And this allowed me to see 'who is who' here.
I was coaxed many times to join by a VIP of this forum .
And, yes, RC Crawlers is the best Forum.

I thank him.

In all seriousness, no pun intended.

[Frank211]

Originally Posted by SteveRC

You guys are all great!
I'm sure we could have some great conversation over a beer or 10.
I value everyone's opinion. We all learn from others experiences.
I am new on "This" forum...so that makes me a stranger to some.
So I jumped right in.
I am a 'shoot from the hip' guy.
And this allowed me to see 'who is who' here.
I was coaxed many times to join by a VIP of this forum .
And, yes, RC Crawlers is the best Forum.

I thank him.

In all seriousness, no pun intended.

I didn't know RCC had VIPs.... ? That's new to me .

RCC with VIPs.... Makes me think who they might be ????

[Inspector86]

Originally Posted by SteveRC

You guys are all great!
I'm sure we could have some great conversation over a beer or 10.
I value everyone's opinion. We all learn from others experiences.
I am new on "This" forum...so that makes me a stranger to some.
So I jumped right in.
I am a 'shoot from the hip' guy.
And this allowed me to see 'who is who' here.
I was coaxed many times to join by a VIP of this forum .
And, yes, RC Crawlers is the best Forum.

I thank him.

In all seriousness, no pun intended.

SteveRC, Welcome to RCC! It normally takes a few months for a new member to be truely accepted. This is true on most every forum I have ever been a member of. Give it some time here and you will find this is a great group of RC Crawler enthusiasts.

[Col_Sanders]

Originally Posted by SteveRC

Axial has changed/improved 'things'. I will concede that the plastic shocks leak out of the box. It is because the plastic shock bodies are poorly formed and molded untrue.. Axial acknowledges this. They even sent me Aluminum bodies to replace the plastic ones upon request(4) and a new set of o-rings( for my Honcho 2. Free of charge. The Axial shocks are actually very tuned and specific to the 10.2 chassis. I have many aftermarket shocks. I have bin of Prolines scalers ,Kings, Vanquish, China bootlegs etc. Traxxas TRX shocks.
The Axial shocks are best especially if used with Buna black X-rings and the Aluminum bodies, solves the leaking. And Axial went above and beyond their warranty and upgraded me without even a peep.
The Gen 8 may be a potential winner. But not without support.

And Redcat couldn't even tell me the Oil Weight of my freinds 3 day old Gen 8 Scout or even supply me with whatever oil they have for their shocks. Because they don't have any oil for it. Great Redcat support. Lol.
Axial never would have succeeded if they did stuff like that. No competitor could. Calling Redcat for support is like calling a Childs Toy Mfr. Has anyone here honestly dealt with Redcat over the phone?????? Please chime in...

Axial's shocks are pure garbage. Even if you were to get the stupid things to stop leaking, the rod ends will wear out quick and they'll be sloppy.

I have not put my hands on a Gen 8, so I can not really comment on the quality, but at least they are listening to customers and updating their product. The motor, transmission, and transfer case setup looks pretty slick and is something that we have been asking Axial to do for years, but instead they give us some massive semi scale looking transmission and turn it around backwards.

Axial has some catching up to do with these newcomers...Hopefully Horizon can get them back on track.

[DukeMinnix]

The unfortunate part about the situation with axial is we as the consumers are at fault. We have allowed axial to run the same 3 gear style transmission with the funky orientation because we continue to buy them knowing full well, as SteveRC said, we can change it with the aftermarket. Yet we still pay top dollar for the RTR or kit versions and then pay more on top to change it after the fact. Its our fault. We created the monster. All of us. If we had stopped buying them, they would stop producing them.

that being said, I like the 3 gear transmission for MOST things, but I do think the scale builders kit should have been developed with a front mount engine/trans and center mount tcase, but nobody asked my opinion.

[Col_Sanders]

Originally Posted by DukeMinnix

The unfortunate part about the situation with axial is we as the consumers are at fault. We have allowed axial to run the same 3 gear style transmission with the funky orientation because we continue to buy them knowing full well, as SteveRC said, we can change it with the aftermarket. Yet we still pay top dollar for the RTR or kit versions and then pay more on top to change it after the fact. Its our fault. We created the monster. All of us. If we had stopped buying them, they would stop producing them.

that being said, I like the 3 gear transmission for MOST things, but I do think the scale builders kit should have been developed with a front mount engine/trans and center mount tcase, but nobody asked my opinion.

We really didnt have much of a choice. They had the market cornered for a long time. I think the Ascender was good enough to make Axial finally design a V2, but not quite good enough to REALLY make them up their game.

Now we also have the Gen 8, Venture, BOM, and the TRX-4 to choose from.
Traxxas is pushing out a damn good product at a reasonable price and it is a very recognizable brand. The fact that you can find Traxxas in pretty much every hobby store is another big bonus.

[JatoTheRipper]

Originally Posted by Col_Sanders

We really didnt have much of a choice. They had the market cornered for a long time. I think the Ascender was good enough to make Axial finally design a V2, but not quite good enough to REALLY make them up their game.

Now we also have the Gen 8, Venture, BOM, and the TRX-4 to choose from.
Traxxas is pushing out a damn good product at a reasonable price and it is a very recognizable brand. The fact that you can find Traxxas in pretty much every hobby store is another big bonus.

I agree. In the past we were forced to accept Axial products because there were no other options. I would say the kits seemed to be better quality back then. Remember when you would cut into an Axial part and you could feel the glass fibers? They had tough plastics at some point.

Now, you don't have to accept Axial's recycled designs with their rubbery plastics. There are lots of options out there now and some, IMO, are better.

[svt923]

Originally Posted by JatoTheRipper

I would say the kits seemed to be better quality back then. Remember when you would cut into an Axial part and you could feel the glass fibers? They had tough plastics at some point.

I think nostalgia warps our senses to make things of the past seem better than they were. I pulled out some parts from my original AX-10 kit from the bin of spares a week ago and they feel exactly the same as the parts from any current Axial.

[SteveRC]

The Gen 8 was an "in house design" and has a target market consumer in mind. I feel it is mostly newcomers. Many will overlook the partially filled shocks, faulty applied Velcro body mounts, memory foamed tires, "not as advertised" steering angle, missing hood decals and dry portal gears. That can be addressed. Redcat will improve the QC I am sure. The Redcat brand has always been in that newcomer niche segment. If you speak with them they will state that, as I have done. And to a smaller extent, the curious and creative RC'er who want to try something Redcat... different, "new and challenging" in a RTR. You can sink $600.+ in a Gen 8 with just Redcat aluminum upgrade parts if you want. I have two older Redcat products myself, and I would never do that. But the possibility is there.
Axial's market is different. Their scx10 2 product is more universal in design.
Horizon's release of the "Raw Builders Kit" has a great price point with just enough of the good stuff. This is a great "donor" platform for whatever your creative style of build objective may be. Some feel the LCG tranny is budget. But it does afford a functional improvement if that's what you want to use.
The $200 or so for the Builder Kit is great value because you can cap it at $1,000.00 and know that an $800.00 budget for parts will get you where you want to be.
I noticed that the average price spent on my last 3 crawler builds ended up at the $1k mark.
So I use that as reference here.
Traxxas has a great product too. And some could argue that the Sport is a good trimmed down donor platform for a custom build. It is not bloated and over designed. I just don't see the after market support for the TRX4 allowing enough creativity in a custom build.

A lot of RC'ers just want a RTR to have fun and drive. So all these Brands are supportive of that. Breakit ,fixit, repeat. And, most any Brand will suit that for the casual hobbyist.
Eventually, a seasoned Hobbyist will become partial to a few
Brands. We are consumers, and it is our nature.
I'm that guy who is asked to take home and play with other peoples RC's after a bash or Track sessions. I enjoy helping others. I'll tune them, fix them ,source parts for them. I have tinkered with pretty much all the brands. I have built numerous Kits of many flavors of Vehicles for so many people. From AE to Losi to Tekno etc. I do do have a preference on brand just from experience. Each our own...

[Browneye]

Originally Posted by SteveRC

I noticed that the average price spent on my last 3 crawler builds ended up at the $1k mark.

Me thinks yer doing it wrong. Just sayin'.
FB would be perfect for you. Also just sayin'.

[Col_Sanders]

Originally Posted by Browneye

Me thinks yer doing it wrong. Just sayin'.
FB would be perfect for you. Also just sayin'.

If he had bought a Traxxas, he wouldnt need to buy shocks, chubs, knuckles, or links...Would have saved him a couple hundred dollars right there.

[Inspector86]

Originally Posted by Browneye

Me thinks yer doing it wrong. Just sayin'.
FB would be perfect for you. Also just sayin'.

OR, he's a veteran RCer that knows quality parts cost more than cheap counterfeit ebay knock off parts. Just Sayin!

[JatoTheRipper]

Originally Posted by svt923

I think nostalgia warps our senses to make things of the past seem better than they were. I pulled out some parts from my original AX-10 kit from the bin of spares a week ago and they feel exactly the same as the parts from any current Axial.

I'm not so certain. I distinctly remember building my first SCX10 kit and when cutting the axle housing off of the tree it was crunchy. You could feel the glass fibers. I just remember that being very different than any RC plastic I had cut in the past. Am I the only one?

Sometimes I do odd things like keep old parts tress so maybe it is still in my Jeep Unlimited box at home. I'll have to try to remember to check.

And, remember, Axial got a new parts supplier somewhere along the way and it's possible didn't have the exact receipt for the plastics formula. I have no idea - just thinking out loud.