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Rockin140 01-26-2020 09:40 PM

Driveshaft Phase
 
Can someone explain having driveshafts in phase?



Is this something to be concerned with in today's builders kits?


Thanks

ferp420 01-26-2020 10:58 PM

Re: Driveshaft Phase
 
it has to do with the fact that ujoints move in a oval pattern as they turn that creates a wooble or vibration 8n the drive line when your shafts are in phase this gets canceled out by the other side of the drive shaft when there spinning cv style joints dont get that
on a 1:1 rig you can feal it when driving at speeds over 45 mph it could posably eat your trans bearings or rear end bearings also
in the scale crawler world your never gona go 45+ miles per hour and your not in the rig so badicly it means nothing your driveshafts will never spin fast enuff to do any damage to your rig or be noticable there are alot of other factors that can create vibration like the pinion angles being off but again your not gona go fast enuff to be a issue and even if you did your not in the rig to feal it there will never be enuff harmonics generated to do any damage to the bearings in a crawler

now if you have a go fast rig it could become a issue but you would have to be in the 60+ mph range and hold it for hours on end to hurt anything
on our crawlers the tires being out of ballance would do more damage to the rig yet no one ever ballances there crawler tires
and ive never herd anyone say that there tires being out of ballance killed there bearings so basicly theres nothing to be concerned about

and on top of that most rcs use a cv style joint so again nothing to worrie about

for what its worth thats why most 1:1 rigs say dont drive over 45 with 4wd engaged cause usaly the front axle pinnion shaft points up twards th3 transmission and the out put of the tcase is parrallell to the ground

Joshs4x4toyz 01-27-2020 05:22 PM

Re: Driveshaft Phase
 
Yes, phase them. It takes no extra time and can save you binding issues depending on you rig and setup.

It is not just a balance thing, it also involves angles. You want your mounting pins inline down the driveshaft from transmission to axle. This allows a greater angle without binding because both joint are traveling together. If you were to graph it, you would have two ovals, one oval for each joint. Together they travel the whole oval entirely. Rotate one 90*, now they are simply "maxed out" where they intersect at the 4 points for "peak" of one of those ovals. Both joints can travel the same complete path still. However neither joint can ever reach its complete rotation without the other binding. Hope that makes sense.

It is a very common problem, its silly not to. Youre creating unnecessary (although may be slight) wear, or may even cause binding. Do it right and line up those driveshaft pins as best you can."thumbsup":mrgreen:

Rockin140 01-27-2020 09:57 PM

Re: Driveshaft Phase
 
Well explained...thanks"thumbsup"

ferp420 01-27-2020 10:50 PM

Re: Driveshaft Phase
 
one question how do you phase a cv style shaft 90% of rc driveshafts are cv style the answer is you dont and

a ujoint can only operate to a max angle phasing them will not change that angle one bit you want to do something go ballance your tires that would do some good
now if your planing on going over 45 for long periods of time it might be a good idea to prevent harmonics from killing bearings on a crawler it just dosent matter ether way

pinnion angles will cause binding and vibration so are your pinnion angle in phase i dought it cause we dont do that on crawlers ive never seen anyone with a angle finder setting pinnion angles ever on a rc a.full sized rig ya but not a rc

but if you feel like phasing your driveshafts go for it its not like its gona hurt anything but its not some magical trick to suddenly make your truck better

ive built more than my share of full size 1:1 driveshafts and have done some crazy stuff and never had one fail although my 1963 ford van i built almost 30 years ago did shear ujoints if i droped the clutch but that had to do with the fat borred and stroked motor and the tiny ujoints there still wasent any vibration

mewalsh100 01-28-2020 06:40 AM

Re: Driveshaft Phase
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Joshs4x4toyz (Post 5993912)
Yes, phase them. It takes no extra time and can save you binding issues depending on you rig and setup.

It is not just a balance thing, it also involves angles. You want your mounting pins inline down the driveshaft from transmission to axle. This allows a greater angle without binding because both joint are traveling together. If you were to graph it, you would have two ovals, one oval for each joint. Together they travel the whole oval entirely. Rotate one 90*, now they are simply "maxed out" where they intersect at the 4 points for "peak" of one of those ovals. Both joints can travel the same complete path still. However neither joint can ever reach its complete rotation without the other binding. Hope that makes sense.

It is a very common problem, its silly not to. Youre creating unnecessary (although may be slight) wear, or may even cause binding. Do it right and line up those driveshaft pins as best you can."thumbsup":mrgreen:


This ^



Well explained and pretty much how I would sum it up Josh. At the end of the day, it's not nearly as critical on a scale RC as it is a 1:1. But, it costs nothing to do and if it amounts to little more than the proverbial "ounce of prevention", why not do it?

Joshs4x4toyz 01-28-2020 12:29 PM

Re: Driveshaft Phase
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hobbyjumper (Post 5994017)
I'm still on the fence about how important it might be to align driveshafts in our scale, but I did find this video highly informative.

http://www.rccrawler.com/forum/gener...ml#post5994015

Nice Hobbyjumper"thumbsup"

The MIPs are notorious for this because the joint is so large. They "bind" when the yoke (in rotation) is inline with the cross pin. if you have some test it out. That is right where will happen every single rotation, 180* out. Of course these are what i would consider extreme angles. But with some of the suspension setups out there it happens.


Ferp
:roll:http://docs.axialracing.com/instruct...%84%A2_KIT.pdf Maybe Axial can teach you how to phase a CVD:lmao: Search on here, its been talked about more than once, it is the MIPs that have the biggest issues though. The WB8 have a small joint and longer neck on the yoke, so there is plenty of clearance.

Ill agree that a proper built rig (like all mine:mrgreen:8)) dont really need it. Because I dont have monster trucks. My driveshafts are almost always very close to horizontal (because i actually do care about pinion angles, I just dont measure them lol) and I never have enough travel to reach those bind points. But if a guy is having that lunging effect, and it is not the gear mesh. it is something that needs to be looked at. I hear ya, but when youre making links for pinion angle, or assembling driveshafts. There is no reason not to keep those things in mind and again, it takes no extra time at all."thumbsup"

Joshs4x4toyz 01-28-2020 12:57 PM

Re: Driveshaft Phase
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mewalsh100 (Post 5994024)
This ^



Well explained and pretty much how I would sum it up Josh. At the end of the day, it's not nearly as critical on a scale RC as it is a 1:1. But, it costs nothing to do and if it amounts to little more than the proverbial "ounce of prevention", why not do it?

Thanks, was hoping it made sense. I definitely agree it is not nearly as critical as 1:1, as most rigs wont have those issues. It seemed it was mostly back in the day with the first axial rigs and housings. Everyone wanted MIPS and with the stock link geometry and axles design, they were binding just sitting on the bench lol. Just a habit now I guess, but having seen a few issues it just kind of stuck I guess.

That video is perfect though. Ill be saving that.

Rockin140 01-28-2020 01:07 PM

Re: Driveshaft Phase
 
"But if a guy is having that lunging effect, and it is not the gear mesh. it is something that needs to be looked at."

The 'what's happening' and how to troubleshoot - two things to look at in gears and driveshafts - is a very, very good to know"thumbsup"

Nez02 01-31-2020 07:21 AM

Re: Driveshaft Phase
 
This makes sense as to why the Traxxas manual for the builder kits has a call out for properly aligning your pins during install.

Sherman 02-03-2020 10:21 AM

Re: Driveshaft Phase
 
So, when I went to install the overdrive gears in my Element Sendero I kept seeing notes and mentions about "make sure your driveshafts are in phase" and had no idea what that meant. I put it all back together and went to drive it and noticed it kept hopping around, especially when turning. It irked me and I thought I had done something wrong in the gearing install. I went back to the workbench and looked up what "in phase" meant and realized that I didn't have the pins down the drive shaft in line. At the gearbox end it was pointing straight up, but at the wheels end the pin was pointing 90 degrees to one side. So I realigned it all so the pins were all pointing the same direction down the shaft (did this on both axles) and sure enough when I test drove it again the hopping went away.

If that's not a demonstration of "out of phase" driveshafts, I don't know what is. But the note above about them operating in ovals makes complete sense now that I've seen what the effect is if they're not in phase.

crazee horse 08-21-2021 04:17 PM

Re: Driveshaft Phase
 
I still don't understand this phase talk

TheLetterJ 08-21-2021 04:56 PM

Re: Driveshaft Phase
 
This sums it up visually: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Idk3BVDVHq4

Timmahh 08-21-2021 09:23 PM

Re: Driveshaft Phase
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by crazee horse (Post 6090764)
I still don't understand this phase talk

the joints have a yolk on each side setting 90* from the next. At the other end is the same thing.

So in phase would have both ends of the drive shafts inline with each other, and the other 2 yolks will also be in line with each other. ie each side of the drive shaft assembly is inline, aka in phase.
https://www.managedmobile.com/wp-con...iveshaft01.jpg


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